Leaking…..something?!

[helrow]

Hello all,

 

We've been on our boat a couple of months, and have recently noticed a gradually increasing damp (now sodden) patch on our carpeted bathroom floor and the bit of passageway floor next to the bathroom wall. It doesn't appear to have conveniently gone away on its own (funny that), so I'm trying to figure out where the water's coming from, which is proving much easier said than done.

 

I put a new line of silicone round the shower in case it was just that leaking under the bath and spreading onto the floor, but it doesn't seem to have done the trick.

 

I've run the taps and done my best to look at all the bits of pipework and can't detect a leak in any of them.

 

I've contorted myself in order to peer under the bit to the left of the kitchen sink area with my head torch and managed to look at the pump, accumulator etc and it seems as if one of these may, repeat may, be the source of the problem. It is very wet under there and I thought maybe this is running through to the bathroom next-door, under the bath and becomes visible to us as a wet patch on the bathroom floor. When I run the taps they splutter a lot too, which also makes me think it may be a pump problem? I can't see anything clearly leaking when I run the taps however.

 

Is it likely there is anything running under the bathroom floor which could be leaking which I haven't looked at? If anyone could give me a list of likely culprits to start examining and eliminating that would be a great help.

 

Yours with wet feet and a bad back….

 

 

 

[matty40s]

Do you have a gulper pump for the shower or one of those mini bilge pumps in a box which break down/block and you don't know until it floods....

[helrow]

I just looked - one of these...

 

http://www.mackengineering.co.uk/products.php?product=F2P10%252d19-12v-JOHNSON-FLEXIBLE-IMPELLER-PUMP-

 

Is that a gulper or the rather cruddier sounding second one?

 

Recently replaced a clogged up filter when the shower stopped draining and it did leak rather a bit of water. I don't think it's still doing so though...

[Phil Ambrose]

Does your water pump cycle on it's own? If so this would indicate a leak in the pressurised part of the system.

 

Phil

[helrow]

Yes - it sometimes wakes us up in the middle of the night. I gather this isn't normal?!

[blackrose]

If the pump cycles on its own it could indicate a leak, or it could just be your calorifier cooling down during the night, reducing pressure in the system and 'telling' the pump to increase the pressure. It may even be water on the pressurised side of the system slowly pushing itself back through the pump to the unpressurised side of the system (into the pipes from the tank), and reducing the pressure so that the pump has to cycle.

 

So a cycling pump does not always indicate a leak. Assuming you have a calorifier with an immersion heater and you are on shore power, does the pump ever cycle by iteslf when the immersion heater is switched on?

 

Had you considered the possibility that the drain from your bath or shower has a leak? What sort of walls do you have in the shower - tiles? The joint inside the shower where the walls meet the tray are often a culprit - was that the bit you resealed?

 

You need to determine whether the water from the leak is freshwater or waste water and that isn't always easy.

Edited December 3, 2013 by blackrose

[helrow]

Thanks very much for your helpful suggestions both..

 

I suspect this is a plumber job…any recommendations for one in the London area would be much appreciated.

Hi Blackrose,

 

I think we posted at the same time!

 

We're not on shore power - we're on a towpath winter mooring so battery and 12v only. No immersion heater either. It has been making the odd pumping noise during the night since we've had the boat come to think of it, and the leak has only happened in the past week….

 

I'll check the shower and bath area thoroughly for a leak and get back to you….thanks very much for replying.

[bizzard]

Narrowboats usually have a bows up attitude and the floors usually slope up a little towards the bow end too. Water doesn't generally run up hill, although it can soak uphill a bit of course. So is your galley with the water pump and accumulator ect uphill of your shower tray ie towards the front of the boat with the bathroom behind ? If so I'd say there's a leak in the water pump area, being as you say the pump burps in the night.

[blackrose]

Hi Blackrose,

 

I think we posted at the same time!

 

We're not on shore power - we're on a towpath winter mooring so battery and 12v only. No immersion heater either. It has been making the odd pumping noise during the night since we've had the boat come to think of it, and the leak has only happened in the past week….

 

So how do you heat your water? If it's with the engine into a calorifier, have you ever noticed your water pump cycling by itself while the engine is running? If so then it's probably a freshwater leak.

 

Edit: I'm just trying to work out whether the pump cycles because the calorifier is cooling. I know you only hear it at night, but is that just because everything else is quiet?

Narrowboats usually have a bows up attitude and the floors usually slope up a little towards the bow end too. Water doesn't generally run up hill, although it can soak uphill a bit of course. So is your galley with the water pump and accumulator ect uphill of your shower tray ie towards the front of the boat with the bathroom behind ? If so I'd say there's a leak in the water pump area, being as you say the pump burps in the night.

 

Yes, you should check under the floor at the very back of the cabin if you have access.

Edited December 3, 2013 by blackrose

[helrow]

Bizzard - yes, the boat definitely has a slight uphill tilt, and the accumulator and water pump are all at the top of the hill so to speak. It would make most sense for the water to be coming from there, though it's definitely most evident in and around the bathroom...

 

Blackrose - The bit I resealed was where the tiled wall and tray meet so hopefully I've covered that possibility- I just tried to put my hand under the drain with water draining and the shower pump switched on but my arm wasn't long enough and my longer armed partner in crime has a broken shoulder so can't lie in the necessary awkward investigatory position! The shower hose was re-looped just before we bought the boat so that its outlet sat higher above the waterline (new BS regs), I'd hope that the boatyard at the brokerage we bought the boat from didn't cock that up somehow..

 

The engine heats our water through a calorifier, and the other day it did start going when the engine was running, so I gather a freshwater leak is what we have. Do you think that narrows it down to the pump/accumulator under the kitchen sink?

 

I need wine!

 

O dear

[bizzard]

Bizzard - yes, the boat definitely has a slight uphill tilt, and the accumulator and water pump are all at the top of the hill so to speak. It would make most sense for the water to be coming from there, though it's definitely most evident in and around the bathroom...

 

Blackrose - The bit I resealed was where the tiled wall and tray meet so hopefully I've covered that possibility- I just tried to put my hand under the drain with water draining and the shower pump switched on but my arm wasn't long enough and my longer armed partner in crime has a broken shoulder so can't lie in the necessary awkward investigatory position! The shower hose was re-looped just before we bought the boat so that its outlet sat higher above the waterline (new BS regs), I'd hope that the boatyard at the brokerage we bought the boat from didn't cock that up somehow..

 

The engine heats our water through a calorifier, and the other day it did start going when the engine was running, so I gather a freshwater leak is what we have. Do you think that narrows it down to the pump/accumulator under the kitchen sink?

 

I need wine!

 

O dear

I'd say very likely and running down the floor and under the bulkhead somehow, into the bathroom next door and around the shower tray.

[DeanS]

Just to summarise for you so you don't have to drink too much wine.

 

1. You have a tank of water in the bow connected to a pump.
2. The pump has an internal switch which measures the pressure in the water pipes downstream of the pump.
3. If you open a tap, the pressure switch sees a low pressure in the piping and kicks the pump in.
4. If a pipe has a leak somewhere, the pump will treat it as an open tap and kick in, till the pipe pressure increases, then stop...till the leak has emptied the piping again. This causes the pump to start/stop/start/stop....alllllll night.
5. If your calorifier is cooling, the water in it will contract, causing less pressure in the piping, and the pump will kick in, but should only kick in a few times till the calorifier is cooled right down. I would guess that if you catch the pump kicking in at 6 am in the morning, that it's probably a pipe leak and not the calorifier still cooling.
6. Water flows downhill as some have said.
7. Also, if you have a hole in the floorboards near the back of the boat, have a good look to see how much water is down there and suck it out.

 

HOPE THAT HELPS. I've just re-said what others have said, but in a point format to perhaps make it easier to digest.

[blackrose]

Bizzard - yes, the boat definitely has a slight uphill tilt, and the accumulator and water pump are all at the top of the hill so to speak. It would make most sense for the water to be coming from there, though it's definitely most evident in and around the bathroom...

 

Blackrose - The bit I resealed was where the tiled wall and tray meet so hopefully I've covered that possibility- I just tried to put my hand under the drain with water draining and the shower pump switched on but my arm wasn't long enough and my longer armed partner in crime has a broken shoulder so can't lie in the necessary awkward investigatory position! The shower hose was re-looped just before we bought the boat so that its outlet sat higher above the waterline (new BS regs), I'd hope that the boatyard at the brokerage we bought the boat from didn't cock that up somehow..

 

The engine heats our water through a calorifier, and the other day it did start going when the engine was running, so I gather a freshwater leak is what we have. Do you think that narrows it down to the pump/accumulator under the kitchen sink?

 

I need wine!

 

O dear

 

See if you can position a piece of kitchen roll on a small dish under the shower drain before you have a shower and then pull it out and see if it's wet just to make sure. I would also go over all joints in the freshwater pipes in that area and also uphill to check for leaks using some kitchen roll.

Edited December 3, 2013 by blackrose

[helrow]

Dean - thank you! Really clear summary and very, very helpful…I think I need to pay more attention to the pump and its noises and take it from there...

 

Blackrose - I shall begin the kitchen roll based tasks tomorrow, thanks again!

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Hi ya,

Just to throw a slant on things!.

Now the colder weather is upon us, Check for (& don't underestimate) the dreaded condensation beast. I had a similar problem,dripping from window,roof vent & even shower door, surprisingly a lot gathering under our bathroom carpet.

Consider taking up the carpet,clean & dry the floor area,lay newspapers on floor over night. just to see,good luck.

Don't forget to let us all know the outcome.

BTW,its now much better without the carpet.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[BlueStringPudding]

Buy some cheap crap kitchen roll, Put sheets of it around the shower, under all joints in pipes between the water pump (front of boat?) and the shower room, all around the shower pump and around the water pump itself and all taps, under any radiators an under the U-bends and so on. Then fill your water tank to the top (it may have a leak). Then have a day of doing all the water-related stuff you ever need to: run the engine for a few hours to heat the calorifier, have a shower, use the bathroom sink, flush the loo, do some washing up in the galley sink, if you have a washing machine use it and so on.

 

Come back the next day and check which if any of the kitchen towels are wet, or show signs of having been wet and are starting to dry (eg greyer in colour, stiffening up, If the problem is intermittent or caused by a certain piece of equipment running then trying to see the wet bit or feel with a hand is sometimes unreliable as the water may have trickled off or dried. Cheap kitchen roll will retain signs of having gotten wet - so don't use posheroonie kitchen roll.

 

Are you sure the water can't be leaching from a window frame or roof hatch and trickling along to the wet bit? If you're not sure, kitchen roll those too next time rain is forecast.

Edited to add: oops, sorry, just saw that someone else recommended the kitchen roll thing already. Sorry

Edited December 3, 2013 by BlueStringPudding

[Neil2]

I've done a lot of flood damage work in my time, and whether it's a boat or on dry land if someone told me their carpet was wet the first thing I would do would be remove it and see what's going on underneath. If you have a wet carpet but a dry(ish) floor the problem is clearly not coming from below. If you have a wet carpet and the problem really is coming from the bilge, possibly as a result of a leaking water supply pipe/joint, when you take up the carpet it will be pretty obvious.

 

On boats or in houses carpets in bathrooms are a bad idea, for all sorts of reasons. In a bathroom a carpet will get wet and stay wet. I have been in many houses where the owner was convinced there was a leak of some sort when it was just a case of frequent wettings with the carpet having no chance of drying.

 

Rip out that carpet and see what's happening below, you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

Whatever, chuck the carpet away and replace it with vinyl.

[Alan de Enfield]

Is it possibly a result of your partners broken shoulder - maybe he is having problems aiming ?

[helrow]

Paul - Hmmm, I'd say leaking window frames definitely not as we have only portholes. The only roof hatch we have is in the saloon which does occasionally suffer from a bit of condensation but is quite a way away from the wet patch. I will take the carpet up anyway….

 

Neil - What you say makes a lot of sense…we were planning on ripping the carpet up anyway and replacing with some rubber or vinyl because it is, as you say, a quite hideous thing to have in a bathroom, so hopefully all will be a bit clearer once we've done that. That's first on the plan of action followed by the cheap kitchen roll fiesta if necessary (thanks BlueStringPudding)

 

Alan - Do you know that was the first thing that crossed my mind. It would involve a very powerful stream though and I'm not sure he's got it in him to be honest..

[mark99]

If you are feeling under the shower tray and your arms are too short - get a stick and add some paper towel etc to the end to act as a swab. Swab the area with stick - feel end of stick if dry, run the shower and then swab the far area again.

Edited December 4, 2013 by mark99

[system 4-50]

A general point, when using kitchen roll to test for leaks, cover the roll with lightly drawn lines in biro. Then, even if the roll dries out, any leak will clearly be shown by smudged lines.

[Grace and Favour]

OP - I've found that purchasing a waterproof endoscope has made such things as looking round corners in the bilge, (and looking at the prop without lifting the weedhatch!) a much useful thing!

[BruceinSanity]

A way of checking to see if it's waste water is to put some lurid food colouring in the basins, shower tray and so on and then see if any of the bits of kitchen towel show stains.

[Neil2]

Is it possibly a result of your partners broken shoulder - maybe he is having problems aiming ?

Another bit of lateral thinking - do you have a cat/dog???

 

Just returning to the floor covering, very often an absorbent covering eg carpet will mask where the water is entering, and removing said carpet may give a clue to the origin.

 

The sources of puzzling ingresses of water are sometimes quite bizarre, and very often a long way from where the flooding manifests itself.

 

I have spent goodness knows how many hours tracing leaks in houses, caravans, even cars, funnily enough I was never called out to a boat though.

 

One of the craziest examples was a dwelling that had a sporadic flood in the kitchen for which there seemed no cause. It would stay dry for weeks on end and then water would appear for no obvious reason. I eventually discovered the source to be a main water tank overflow that had been piped into the wall of the house and terminated, open ended, within the kitchen wall. Every so often the valve would malfunction and water would enter the overflow and basically saturate the wall from within. To this day I have no idea why the house was "plumbed" this way, but having said that it's never ceased to amaze me what goes on unseen in houses, I'm sure it's the same with boats.

 

Things like this do leave you approaching every problem with an open mind though.

[ditchcrawler]

And remember, water can go uphill as well as down.