Yottie convicted over collision

[Timleech]

 

AIUI, the boat on the towpath side gives way if there's any doubt about who's nearer, following the underlying principle that the vessel with more options should give way. But I can't remember where I first saw this, it doesn't work on turnover bridges, obviously, and there may be other factors in play.

 

For example, it seems to me to be a good rule that the boat in a wider channel should hold back, rather than forcing the other one into the offside hedge or onto a shallow decayed washwall.

 

Surely neither boat is on the towpath side? I don't understand that one at all?

 

Tim

[mrsmelly]

What a bloody stupid thing to say.

 

Yes I agree your remark is a stupid thing to say. I have personal experience and in the past access to a very large computer base that could prove my point if I had access to it today.

 

Tim

[BruceinSanity]

 

Surely neither boat is on the towpath side? I don't understand that one at all?

 

Tim

The question was about which boat should give way at a canal bridge hole, that is when two boats are approaching from opposite sides. Assuming the usual pass port to port or keep right rule, one of these boats has the towpath on their right as they approach the bridge and if it chose to stop and put a line ashore would be on the left of the other boat.

 

Sorry if that's not as clear as it might be; still waking up at this end!

[Dharl]

Thanks Bruce,

 

In some ways that's more complicated than the COLREGs!!

 

Tim, IMO would say that as you keep to the stbd side of the channel ( or pass on the right anyway) if the towpath is on your right then you give way, however guess it depends on circumstances at the time! In Sept approaching bridge before Dundas Aquaduct coming towards me was a motor and butty and as I was in 50ft hire boat it was much easier for me hop in to spare gap on the towpath side and let them through!

[Delta9]

 

Yes I agree your remark is a stupid thing to say. I have personal experience and in the past access to a very large computer base that could prove my point if I had access to it today.

 

Tim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

Typical police behavior, attacking the character or those that critisise you by implying that they are criminals.

[Timleech]

The question was about which boat should give way at a canal bridge hole, that is when two boats are approaching from opposite sides. Assuming the usual pass port to port or keep right rule, one of these boats has the towpath on their right as they approach the bridge and if it chose to stop and put a line ashore would be on the left of the other boat.

 

Sorry if that's not as clear as it might be; still waking up at this end!

 

 

I see what you're getting at, but it really doesn't make any difference other than perhaps psychologically. If you stop and hold to the towpath, rules about keeping right etc.immediately go out of the window.

 

Tim

[twbm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

Typical police behavior, attacking the character or those that critisise you by implying that they are criminals.

 

One of the most vociferous critics of the police on this forum, who persistently describes all police as corrupt, has inferred strongly that his views are based on his experiences of having been arrested and convicted. I suspect Tims remarks may have been aimed in that general direction.

 

'All coppers are bent' rarely elicits a challenge unless some of us 'ex' choose to set ourselves up for a bashing, whereas suggestions that the whole UK police should not be judged on the infrequent actions of small minorities are countered with examples of isolated incidents, offerred as proof of that by even some of the more sane regular contributors.

[carlt]

 

 

'All coppers are bent' rarely elicits a challenge unless some of us 'ex' choose to set ourselves up for a bashing,

Sorry but I think there are so few people who actually believe this that it should be dismissed as quickly and easily as the counter accusation that all critics of the police are engaged in criminal activity.

 

As I said you cannot challenge a generalisation by attempting to sweep it away with another, diametrically opposite one, that is equally absurd.

[Neil2]

speaking as some one who has sailed (and still does) in the Solent where this happens............

 

.........................In open waters sail DOES have right of way over power

If you are familiar with the Colregs you should know that there is no such thing as "right of way". At least one vessel is the give way vessel, but that does not mean that the other has right of way and this is a fundamental principle of the Colregs.

[mrsmelly]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

Typical police behavior, attacking the character or those that critisise you by implying that they are criminals.

Hi Delta

 

There are no walls round here to bash my head on and Im not going to have a battle of wits with someone who is so obviously unarmed so I will withdraw at this point.

 

Tim

[bizzard]

If you are familiar with the Colregs you should know that there is no such thing as "right of way". At least one vessel is the give way vessel, but that does not mean that the other has right of way and this is a fundamental principle of the Colregs.

Hear, hear. ( Here lies the body of William Grey who insisted on his right of way).

Edited October 27, 2013 by bizzard

[carlt]

Typical police behavior, attacking the character or those that critisise you by implying that they are criminals.

and now you've swept the generalisation right back in the other direction.

 

There are some nasty, rotten coppers out there...I know because I've met some.

 

There are also some brilliant police officers who are totally dedicated to their job and go above and beyond what is expected of them...I've met even more of this type.

 

I suspect, though, the vast majority of police officers are just average folk doing their job adequately, competently and without much fuss or too much drama.

[Delta9]

Hi Delta

 

There are no walls round here to bash my head on and Im not going to have a battle of wits with someone who is so obviously unarmed so I will withdraw at this point.

 

Tim

Nobody is trying to engage you in a battle of wits. You have already established that your idea of discussion is attacking the character of those that criticise you or your ex employers. Next time you find that wall to bang your head against, try banging it a little harder.

and now you've swept the generalisation right back in the other direction.

 

There are some nasty, rotten coppers out there...I know because I've met some.

 

There are also some brilliant police officers who are totally dedicated to their job and go above and beyond what is expected of them...I've met even more of this type.

 

I suspect, though, the vast majority of police officers are just average folk doing their job adequately, competently and without much fuss or too much drama.

The trouble is that "doing their job adequately" involves enforcing many stupid laws that shouldn't exist.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Delta9

[carlt]

 

The trouble is that "doing their job adequately" involves enforcing many stupid laws that shouldn't exist.

Well I may be accused of a sweeping generalisation but that's the politicians' fault.

 

Each and every one of them!

[howardang]

If you are familiar with the Colregs you should know that there is no such thing as "right of way". At least one vessel is the give way vessel, but that does not mean that the other has right of way and this is a fundamental principle of the Colregs.

 

I think the phrase was used as a shorthand description rather than an exact quote from the rules, but whatever, the blame in my mind lies fairly and squarely with the yachtsman and I wonder what the Navy thinks about it!

 

Howard

[Dharl]

If you are familiar with the Colregs you should know that there is no such thing as "right of way". At least one vessel is the give way vessel, but that does not mean that the other has right of way and this is a fundamental principle of the Colregs.

 

you are quite right Neil, however as majority of the readership are concerned on Inland water way rather than open water where the Colregs come into effect (though in case they are in effect on the inland waterways as well...) i decided not to over complicate the issue by discussing between Give Way vessel and having a right of way ;-)

 

Thank you for bringing the discussion back on to topic!

 

David

thanks Howard...beat me too it!

 

Virtul greenie to you sir!

[patty-ann]

Having made a mess of trying to drag quotes I have given that up this time ref naval officers I had years of interaction with these individuals and I am not surprised by this mans actions. I have come across an almost inability to recognise that rules are there for all including them. There are a few decent ones who recognised that they had a privileged lifestyle and that they were grateful for the perks, sadly not enough had this mindset. I met some very arrogant men. Same I suppose in all walks of life and its these who tarnish the image for others.

[howardang]

Having made a mess of trying to drag quotes I have given that up this time ref naval officers I had years of interaction with these individuals and I am not surprised by this mans actions. I have come across an almost inability to recognise that rules are there for all including them. There are a few decent ones who recognised that they had a privileged lifestyle and that they were grateful for the perks, sadly not enough had this mindset. I met some very arrogant men. Same I suppose in all walks of life and its these who tarnish the image for others.

Having made a mess of trying to drag quotes I have given that up this time ref naval officers I had years of interaction with these individuals and I am not surprised by this mans actions. I have come across an almost inability to recognise that rules are there for all including them. There are a few decent ones who recognised that they had a privileged lifestyle and that they were grateful for the perks, sadly not enough had this mindset. I met some very arrogant men. Same I suppose in all walks of life and its these who tarnish the image for others.

On the other hand I have come across many extremely efficient and professional RN officers. I suspect that this junior officer was too engrossed in the fact that he was "racing" which in some quarters seems to be an excuse for ignoring rules - inexcusable in my view in any circumstance, but particularly in the Solent where there is an additional rule regarding the prohibition zone which Dharl has already mentioned.

 

Howard

[MtB]

And let's not forget, had his boat been about one second quicker he'd succeeded in getting past the bow of that tanker, probably won the race, got a tonne of adulation and no prosecution mounted.

 

Which would just leaving the crew of the tanker shaking their heads and muttering '####s' to each other, yet again.

 

MtB

Edited February 1, 2016 by DHutch

[Neil2]

 

you are quite right Neil, however as majority of the readership are concerned on Inland water way rather than open water where the Colregs come into effect (though in case they are in effect on the inland waterways as well...) i decided not to over complicate the issue by discussing between Give Way vessel and having a right of way ;-)

 

 

I think it your efforts to avoid "over complicating" the issue you have actually created confusion by suggesting that the concept of "right of way" exists in a maritime context. And the way in which you prefaced your comments would suggest to anyone reading that you speak with some authority.

 

You reinforced this when raising the issue of who has "right of way" at bridge holes.

 

I can't claim to be an experienced sailor but when I was trained it was drilled into me that on a boat you dismiss from your mind any thoughts of "right of way" and wherever you happen to be, out at sea on on the canal, it seems to make a hell of a lot of sense to me.

 

For example, all this nonsense about the boat on the towpath side having right of way - where did that come from? If I meet a boat coming the other way, whether it's on narrows, bridge holes, past moored boats etc. I slow to a crawl unless it's very obvious the other boat is some distance away. If the other boat does the same we are in a safe situation to establish who is going through first. It may end up in a " after you , no, after you " situation but that is preferable to one boat steaming ahead because he is under the misconception that, for example, being on the towpath side gives him privilege.

 

It's probably worth pointing out that as part of the investigation into the yacht incident the authorities would have examined whether there was anything the skipper of the motor vessel could have done to avoid a collision and if he could have, but maintained his course regardless because he thought he had "right of way", he would have been equally at fault.

[PaulG]

And let's not forget, had his boat been about one second quicker he'd succeeded in getting past the bow of that tanker, probably won the race, got a tonne of adulation and no prosecution mounted.

 

Which would just leaving the crew of the tanker shaking their heads and muttering '###s' to each other, yet again.

 

MtB

No he would not have won the race.

The Sailing Instructions (effectively special rules for the race series) state:

"Boats shall observe the Associated British Ports (ABP)

Southampton Harbour Byelaws 2003 (see Safety Booklet)

at all times and avoid any close quarters situation with

large commercial shipping. Particular note should be

made of Byelaws 10 & 11 and Associated British Ports

Southampton Notice to Mariners No. 23 of 2012 giving

details of a moving prohibited zone, which ranks as an

obstruction for the purposes of RRS 19 and 20 (as shown

in the Safety Booklet)"

 

The "Moving Prohibited Zone" extends to 1000m (one kilometer) ahead of a large vessel, and 100m on either side of it, so any yacht sailing into this area can be disqualified.

Trying to squeeze across the bows of large vessels is a definite no-no!.

The Safety Booket also shows the course that large vessels take in the approaches to Southampton at various states of the tide, so his claim of an "unexpected manoevre" didn't stand up.

Edited February 1, 2016 by DHutch

[mayalld]

For example, all this nonsense about the boat on the towpath side having right of way - where did that come from? If I meet a boat coming the other way, whether it's on narrows, bridge holes, past moored boats etc. I slow to a crawl unless it's very obvious the other boat is some distance away. If the other boat does the same we are in a safe situation to establish who is going through first. It may end up in a " after you , no, after you " situation but that is preferable to one boat steaming ahead because he is under the misconception that, for example, being on the towpath side gives him privilege.

 

It was the case, but has long since ceased to be the case.

 

The reasoning behind it was based upon the assumption that both vessels were towed from the towpath. In such cases, the offside vessel would, as a matter of course, have to slacken its lines so as to pass the oncoming vessel without entanglement, so it would give way.

[howardang]

I think it your efforts to avoid "over complicating" the issue you have actually created confusion by suggesting that the concept of "right of way" exists in a maritime context. And the way in which you prefaced your comments would suggest to anyone reading that you speak with some authority.

 

You reinforced this when raising the issue of who has "right of way" at bridge holes.

 

I can't claim to be an experienced sailor but when I was trained it was drilled into me that on a boat you dismiss from your mind any thoughts of "right of way" and wherever you happen to be, out at sea on on the canal, it seems to make a hell of a lot of sense to me.

 

For example, all this nonsense about the boat on the towpath side having right of way - where did that come from? If I meet a boat coming the other way, whether it's on narrows, bridge holes, past moored boats etc. I slow to a crawl unless it's very obvious the other boat is some distance away. If the other boat does the same we are in a safe situation to establish who is going through first. It may end up in a " after you , no, after you " situation but that is preferable to one boat steaming ahead because he is under the misconception that, for example, being on the towpath side gives him privilege.

 

It's probably worth pointing out that as part of the investigation into the yacht incident the authorities would have examined whether there was anything the skipper of the motor vessel could have done to avoid a collision and if he could have, but maintained his course regardless because he thought he had "right of way", he would have been equally at fault.

 

The need for a stand on vessel also taking action is written into the rules but I suspect you are forgetting that during a race there are many vessels taking part, all juggling for position, and during Cowes Week, there are often two or three races taking part at the same time. In these circumstances it is extremely difficult for a large vessel to take any avoiding action. That is specifically why the moving prohibition zone was put in place, something that the yachtsman completely ignored. If he had obeyed it there would have been no collision, and more particularly the large vessel would not have been exposed to unnecessary danger.

 

Howard

[PaulG]

The need for a stand on vessel also taking action is written into the rules but I suspect you are forgetting that during a race there are many vessels taking part, all juggling for position, and during Cowes Week, there are often two or three races taking part at the same time. In these circumstances it is extremely difficult for a large vessel to take any avoiding action. That is specifically why the moving prohibition zone was put in place, something that the yachtsman completely ignored. If he had obeyed it there would have been no collision, and more particularly the large vessel would not have been exposed to unnecessary danger.

 

Howard

Quite correct.

The main problem for large vessels is the sharp turn at Brambles Bank. This is where the QE2 went aground, luckily on a rising tide so they were able to get off reasonably quickly.

My brother-in-law, who skippered a Panamax-sized container ship until very recently, tells me that they needed to be doing a minimum of 15 knots in order to get around the turn. Large vessels can't slow down without endangering the ship, and they are restricted to the deep water channel.

[Dharl]

Thank you for accepting my apology so gracefully Neil.

 

 

 

The need for a stand on vessel also taking action is written into the rules but I suspect you are forgetting that during a race there are many vessels taking part, all juggling for position, and during Cowes Week, there are often two or three races taking part at the same time. In these circumstances it is extremely difficult for a large vessel to take any avoiding action. That is specifically why the moving prohibition zone was put in place, something that the yachtsman completely ignored. If he had obeyed it there would have been no collision, and more particularly the large vessel would not have been exposed to unnecessary danger.

Howard

 

.....and further complicated by the finishing line for most of those races being just where large ships have to alter course....

Quite correct.

The main problem for large vessels is the sharp turn at Brambles Bank. This is where the QE2 went aground, luckily on a rising tide so they were able to get off reasonably quickly.

My brother-in-law, who skippered a Panamax-sized container ship until very recently, tells me that they needed to be doing a minimum of 15 knots in order to get around the turn. Large vessels can't slow down without endangering the ship, and they are restricted to the deep water channel.

 

on large tankers making a turn there have to have an escort tug made fast on the stern to assist with making the turn. This can been seen in the you tube clip with the long line leading from the stern of the tanker.

 

Taking a large vessel up the Solent when you have to keep to the channels is a daunting experience and I have nothing but admiration for the Marine Pilots and officers of the ferry's who operate there year round. As an occasional vistor by ship I am always greatful seeing the Pilot boat come alongside at Nab Tower to help guide my ship up to Fawley.

 

David