How Many BW Converted Workboats Still Exist?

[cheshire~rose]

I need to spend a while catching up with all the new information that has been posted in this thread. There is some fascinating stuff!

 

Wheil I was out on Python yesterday Kestrel was pointed out to me.

This Kestrel:

 

I understand the stern of this boat may have formerley been Ostrich but it seems there is some debate over the true identities of the different bits of this boat although consensus of opinion is that the bow is Kestrel

 

 

Another bit of BW handiwork back in the 1950's

[IanM]

Don't think this one has been mentioned yet:

 

.

 

Much altered from when it was a BW workboat as in the previous thread:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=58000&hl=antlia#entry1099028

 

Have a wider shot

 

Hatton Locks - Grand Union Canal by imulford, on Flickr

[davidg]

That's out of date now - the cabin in front of the engine room has gone blue and the handrails are oscillating between red & grey.

[David Schweizer]

As we have mentioned Antlia, what about Clypeus, which used I understand to have had two huge fiittings welded to the gunwhales/hull sides, so that she could be lifted out by crane (at Gloucester docks I believe). I was told by her former owner, that when she was released from the BW fleet, the hull was so distorted that she had two feet of hull removed and the two sections re-welded together.

 

I have some photos somewhere which I will try to scan and post.

 

Edted To add:- the restoration of Clypeus is not exactly the same as Antlia, Clypeus was cut in half, the damaged section removed, and the remaining two halves welded back together. iIunderstand that Antlia was cut in half some thirty or forty years ago and two boat created from the two halves, which were brought back together. The modern ends were removed and what reamined of the front and back welded back together, from memory she is now about 60 ft long, wheras Clypeus is about 69ft long

Edited September 27, 2013 by David Schweizer

[IanM]

That's out of date now - the cabin in front of the engine room has gone blue and the handrails are oscillating between red & grey.

 

That was taken 4 years ago, cabin structure still the same though

Edited September 27, 2013 by IanM

[DJR]

Carnaby is as we got her from BW in 2010, and with the exception of making the cabin more user friendly she will stay as she is. We would love to know why BW cut the gunwales down, our best guess is to improve access when loading/unloading. If anyone knows for sure we would like to hear from them.

We looked at Aynho when the auctions were on and recall that she had a more 'traditional' style cabin but don't recall the gunwales being cut down.

Caldy was on the K&A about 2 years ago looking very tidy but otherwise unaltered from her BW guise.

 

[alan_fincher]

Jan,

 

From previous debate the smart money seemed to be that the full length unconverted FMC boat Kestrel is actually Ostrich, even though its owner wants to think otherwise.

 

The boat you picture is half off Kestrel, buy unlikely to have any Ostrich in it.

 

The other half of Kestrel is another boat.

[Speedwheel]

the blade is stored in the front of the boat as ballast.

 

Is it definitely still there?

[davidg]

As we have mentioned Antlia, what about Clypeus, which used I understand to have had two huge fiittings welded to the gunwhales/hull sides, so that she could be lifted out by crane (at Gloucester docks I believe). I was told by her former owner, that when she was released from the BW fleet, the hull was so distorted that she had two feet of hull removed and the two sections re-welded together.

 

I have some photos somewhere which I will try to scan and post.

 

Edted To add:- the restoration of Clypeus is not exactly the same as Antlia, Clypeus was cut in half, the damaged section removed, and the remaining two halves welded back together. iIunderstand that Antlia was cut in half some thirty or forty years ago and two boat created from the two halves, which were brought back together. The modern ends were removed and what reamined of the front and back welded back together, from memory she is now about 60 ft long, wheras Clypeus is about 69ft long

I believe the story behind Clypeus is that when it was rebottomed by BW at Gloucester they wanted to do it under cover and the shed would only accommodate half a boat so they cut it in half, rebottomed one half, then the other and then joined the two halves together again, not very well. Being on the G&S straightness didn't matter that much and it was just a piece of plant.

[roland elsdon]

Can't see any engine beds in back of fenny, has correct tanks in engine room swim , base engine room all original and bw hb2 in engine hole surprised if she had engine at back at sometime, unless someone knows different. However she has had loads of work..

[FMC Ling 317]

Would it be prudent to narrow this down to boats that still have the bw cabins fitted?

[Laurence Hogg]

Can't see any engine beds in back of fenny, has correct tanks in engine room swim , base engine room all original and bw hb2 in engine hole surprised if she had engine at back at sometime, unless someone knows different. However she has had loads of work..

"Barnet" had the engine in the back too when the "space age cabin" was fitted, today there is no sign of that left, we too have a HB from BW days.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Laurence Hogg

[cheshire~rose]

Carnaby is as we got her from BW in 2010, and with the exception of making the cabin more user friendly she will stay as she is. We would love to know why BW cut the gunwales down, our best guess is to improve access when loading/unloading. If anyone knows for sure we would like to hear from them.

We looked at Aynho when the auctions were on and recall that she had a more 'traditional' style cabin but don't recall the gunwales being cut down.

Caldy was on the K&A about 2 years ago looking very tidy but otherwise unaltered from her BW guise.

 

 

 

Thank you for confirming those details, most helpful.

[cheshire~rose]

Would it be prudent to narrow this down to boats that still have the bw cabins fitted?

 

For the purpose of answering my original request for information I would tend to agree that yes it would.

 

However there is so much really interesting discussion about a variety of old BW boats that I feel this thread has served a purpose in bringing together a lot of information in one place about these boats and as these threads tend to lurk in the ether for years to come and occasionally get brought back to life with someone who finds them and has a new pice of information or a question about one the boats already discussed I do not feel it harms to discuss the current known fate of any boats that were once, in their past modified by BW.

 

Of course it means I have got totally confused with all the information (but as everyone knows I am very easy to confuse!)

 

My search for Joshers that were modified by BW and still retain the fabric of ther BW conversion without any later major modifications is still numbered at just six

 

Python

Panther

Alder

Malvern

Gailey

Aynho

 

or have I missed some?

[alan_fincher]

Aynho lis not a Josher.

 

It is a Large Woolwich Grand Union.

[David Schweizer]

Aynho lis not a Josher.

 

It is a Large Woolwich Grand Union.

 

Worked on the southern GU for many years as a piling boat with Ayr, by Billy Brown and Dolly Dakin. The scruffiest pair of boats on the system!

[cheshire~rose]

Aynho lis not a Josher.

 

It is a Large Woolwich Grand Union.

 

Thank you - that will teach me not to refer to scraps of paper with scribbles on!

[cheshire~rose]

Thinking a little further on this matter I would like to try and get answers to a couple more questions.

 

• I am wondering how likely it is that there are still boats around fitting my chosen description (A Josher that was converted by BW and still retains it's BW conversion) that have not been brought to light by this thread? I would like to thank all the people who have contributed so far. There are so many people who's knowledge of the history of the canals and old boats is immense who have contributed to this thread so far but I guess what I am asking is: Is their combined knowledge exhaustive or is there a likelihood that there is some other example lurking in a quiet backwater somewhere that all you wonderful historians are not aware of?

 

• Secondly, and this might take a a bit longer to answer - how many Joshers did BW convert? What boats which BW converted do we know have since been lost?

[Heartland]

Does anybody know about the Canal Transport Marketing Board, formed in January 1968. BWB was at that time selling off GUCCC boats, but would not sell them to CTMB members?

 

Ray Shill

[Laurence Hogg]

 

Thinking a little further on this matter I would like to try and get answers to a couple more questions.

 

• I am wondering how likely it is that there are still boats around fitting my chosen description (A Josher that was converted by BW and still retains it's BW conversion) that have not been brought to light by this thread? I would like to thank all the people who have contributed so far. There are so many people who's knowledge of the history of the canals and old boats is immense who have contributed to this thread so far but I guess what I am asking is: Is their combined knowledge exhaustive or is there a likelihood that there is some other example lurking in a quiet backwater somewhere that all you wonderful historians are not aware of?

 

• Secondly, and this might take a a bit longer to answer - how many Joshers did BW convert? What boats which BW converted do we know have since been lost?

 

 

This is getting a bit over complex.depends on what "converted" actually means, ie engine change or cabin length? and "lost" again in what way, converted to plesaure? cut up?

I wonder if a boat exists which hasnt had some sort of conversion done to it in the length of its life, certainly to my knowledge only one or two original builds still exist excepting the latter Admiral and River class boats.

[cheshire~rose]

 

This is getting a bit over complex.depends on what "converted" actually means, ie engine change or cabin length? and "lost" again in what way, converted to plesaure? cut up?

I wonder if a boat exists which hasnt had some sort of conversion done to it in the length of its life, certainly to my knowledge only one or two original builds still exist excepting the latter Admiral and River class boats.

 

Sorry it is probably my use of the wrong words that is making it sound complex.

 

 

By converted I mean changed in a way that makes it's apearance different. Predominantly a change in cabin style - with or without the boat being made shorter.

 

By "lost" I mean gone forever as in scrapped.

 

I think many boats changed engines over the years and this was as much about the passage of time and different engines being available that may not have been quite so picky about requiring intensive maintenance. I personally do not find a change of engine quite so relevant as while it changes the fabric of the boat it does not (usually) change the external look of it. However if people have details they are able to share it is all interesting stuff

[Laurence Hogg]

Found these today during the clearout of the office!! Python in 1995 at Little Venice, taken by Mark Pullinger.

 

[cheshire~rose]

 

Oh wow!

 

Thank you for sharing them Laurence!

 

Would you (or Mark) have any objection to The Chesterfield Canal Trust using those photo's as part of her history?

[Laurence Hogg]

 

Oh wow!

 

Thank you for sharing them Laurence!

 

Would you (or Mark) have any objection to The Chesterfield Canal Trust using those photo's as part of her history?

No problem just credit Mark, will try and get the negatives to scan.

[cheshire~rose]

No problem just credit Mark, will try and get the negatives to scan.

 

Thank you Laurence.

 

When Dave saw Mark's photo's he said that is the way she was when he remembered her. He also has memories of her being painted blue. after that.

 

With Alan Finchers photo of her full size being dated to around 1972 and this one of her shortened being dated to 1995 we now have a 23 year period during which we need to stick a pin to find out when she was shortened. I have always been told it was during the 1980's but have yet to find any conclusive evidence of where that date came from. I have a lead to follow up that suggests 1978-1982. If that proves to be reliable it narrows the period significantly.