How Many BW Converted Workboats Still Exist?

[pete harrison]

If you are including full length boats like Malvern think I may have lost the plot over exactly what criteria qualify a boat for inclusion!

 

What about "Hercules" then, which I think is a bit "BW-ised" but nothing like as badly so as some?

 

It's certainly no longer pure "Small Woolwich", I think.

I did not really want to get too involved with this B.W.B. cabin / length thing but if GAILEY, MALVERN and HERCULES are being included then what about AURIGA ?

 

FENNY, NABURN, OAKLEY, PADDINGTON, PURTON and TIPTON were all shortened by B.W.B. for maintenance work in the North Eastern Division.

[cheshire~rose]

Thank you Pete. Auriga was mentioned to me yesterday. I need to have a look what I can find out about that one the others you mention.

 

All the help and information everyone is giving me is fantastic and very much appreciated.

 

What I am trying to do is work out how many remaining boats there are that are similar to Python. The reason for this is that I would like to try and draw up some sort of statement of her significance as a historic boat. Of course all historic boats are significant in as much as they have survived! I think it is broadly correct to say that almost all owners of historic boats like to see them as significant too. I am not trying to make out Python is any way more significant than any other boat but I want to try and work out the key things that make her significant.

 

I am very aware that probably the large majority of people, when they look at boats like Python just see a boat that was butchered by BW at some point in it's history. Without going into the rights and wrongs of what BW did to these vessels back in that time the result is that boats like Python and the others we are discussing have survived when there is a strong possibility that maybe not quite so many of them would have survived to this day if they had not had a valuable job to do at that point in their lives. Throughout history boats of all types have been adapted and modified to keep them useable as times change. It is easy to look back with horror at the way they were butchered but at that time their historic value was not significant, they were just ageing hulks that would either be scrapped or adapted for a new job of work.

 

The fact is that Python and others like her have a few chapters in their autobiography where they were work boats for BW. That is part of their history and even if it is a chapter that many of the purists would prefer to pretend had not happened it did happen! Over the last decade or so many of these boats have been reconstructed to the way the original builder intended. As more of them get reconstructed fewer examples survive of what BW did to ensure these boats were kept working.

 

Of course when investigating how many of these boats survive you start to uncover more and more examples and I am thrilled that people are still making suggestions of more as I feel this thread is one that could be useful for people to refer back to in future. It is all valuable information that novices like myself can read and learn from. However in my quest to try and collate data to show how significant our little Python is it can make her seem quite an insignificant vessel indeed as more and more examples come to light.

 

I trust you will all indulge me if I choose to whittle down the data on all these boats to a smaller group so Python has a little more significance as that suits the requirements of my task in hand.

 

Without researching those boats Pete Harrison has mentioned in his last post and some of the others in recent posts I have a short list of surviving BW work boats that just includes Joshers:

 

Python

Panther

Alder

Malvern

Gailey

 

Clearly I have a lot more research to do and hopefully I will get a little more time later today to look further at the list and would like to try and get some photo's of all the vessels mentioned on here if possible as it gives the novice like myself a visual comparison between the boats.

 

I suspect even after this research the one truly significant thing about Python, a significance she shares with Panther, is that the two boats were not only sisters who remarkably shared the same works number but they both had a very similar conversion around the same point in their lives. I suspect there cannot be very many surviving examples of sisters surviving at all but for them both to have been converted in a similar way must be fairly unusual.

 

Of course now I have typed that I know all those historians among you will bring lots more examples of similar circumstances.

[Derek R.]

And surely RADIANT is as left by BW? I think that the Turpin's are quite deliberate in their policy to leave as found (save a paint job), and BW had it like this:

 

 

Buckby top mid eighties.

 

BW didn't butcher everything, sometimes they just 'fiddled'. But in many cases their changes were done to meet more modern work related regulations: wider gunnels, handrails, more headroom in a reverse crew cabin layout, and various attempts at anti-vandal hatches and such. But all too often the tops were considered over the bottoms.

 

PYTHON insignificant - why so?

Edited September 25, 2013 by Derek R.

[cheshire~rose]

PYTHON insignificant - why so?

 

When Python is out and about there is rarely a day goes by when someone will not suggest to her crew that she ought to be lengthened and be refitted with a traditional cabin. The more people I get to know (and the more people who get to know me) I know that many of them say it just because they know what the answer will be and it becomes a standing joke. Not all the crew know as many historic boat owners as me though and I do wonder if the humour can be lost upon them

 

No one at The Chesterfield Canal Trust doubts Python's significance but I suspect many do not appreciate just how significant she is. When the crew arrive at an event with their little chopped about ugly bug of a boat she fades into insignificance against the polished brass, fancy ropework and painted cans adorning the boats around her. This exercise will help those who are involved with Python but who maybe do not understand quite so much about historic boats generally to understand just why Python is as deserving of that place at the festival even without any "bling" It is also an exercise to formalise an understanding of just what The Trust are custodians of and how important it is that she is maintained and cared for long term as we are about to embark upon drawing up a 10 year plan for her conservation.

[alan_fincher]

I suspect there cannot be very many surviving examples of sisters surviving at all but for them both to have been converted in a similar way must be fairly unusual.

 

Of course now I have typed that I know all those historians among you will bring lots more examples of similar circumstances.

Quads?

 

"Sextans", "Sickle", "Theophilus" & "Tycho"

 

Admittedly only "Sickle" and "Tycho" now look like close sisters, and "Sextans" has gained 10 feet of "Thea" since.

 

[cheshire~rose]

I was unaware of the relationship betweem those four boats. I knew a little about Tycho and Sickle but has no idea the other two were close relations. What is the history there please?

[alan_fincher]

I was unaware of the relationship betweem those four boats. I knew a little about Tycho and Sickle but has no idea the other two were close relations. What is the history there please?

All four "Middle Northwich", (along with sligthly different "Large Northwich" "Renton" were requisitioned by the Ministry of War Transport in 1942, cut to 40 feet in length, and converted to ice-breakers. All the "Middle" boats received an ice ram like "Tycho" still has, although "Renton" always seems to have carried a smaller blade, without any of the trappings of the other four.

 

"Sextans" and "Theophilus" survived as BW tugs, like "Sickle" until about 1963/4 (from memory!), before being aquired by tender by Wyvern Shipping, who converted both to 6 berth hire boats, ("Sextans" was renamed "Hesperus", which causes some confusion, as there is also a very well know wooden "Big Ricky" GUCCCo boat of that name.

 

"Theophilus" is the least well known now, because it is a fairly anonymous houseboat at Little Venice, (and anecdotally is supposed to have sunk in the past, due, I think, to hull condition).

 

It is still remarkably "Wyvern Shipping" hire boat like, and still sports their wooden cabin, albeit now extended forward.

 

EDITED TO ADD:

I don't know when the ice rams were removed from "Sextans", "Sickle" or "Theophilus", but it is unlikely it was all at the same time. If you look at Theophilus, (below) far more of it was left when torched off than on the other boats, so it now has that unique extended stem post. Like "Sickle" it still carries the bracing plates on the hull that once helped support and stabilise the ice-ram. The heavy renovations of "Sextans" some yeras ago removed such history, and she now has a "cleaned up" front end with most traces of the ice-breaker phase of her life erased. Personally I think that's a shame, but she is still a lovely boat!

 

Edited September 25, 2013 by alan_fincher

[cheshire~rose]

Oh I like Theophilus! she looks rather lovely!

 

Am I correct in thinking the link between these 4 boats is when they were requisitioned in 1942 rather than from their build? Obviusly all being middle Northwiches they came from the same place but the HNBC site suggests Tycho and Sextans were built in 1936 while Sickle was 1937. There is no date shown for Theophilus

[alan_fincher]

Am I correct in thinking the link between these 4 boats is when they were requisitioned in 1942 rather than from their build? Obviusly all being middle Northwiches they came from the same place but the HNBC site suggests Tycho and Sextans were built in 1936 while Sickle was 1937. There is no date shown for Theophilus

Yes, correct.

 

"The George & The Mary" (which has been known to be wong!) suggests the follwing build dates....

 

83 - Sextans - 7th January 1936

84 - Sickle - 17th March 1936

91 - Theophilus - 19th April 1936

93 - Tycho - 14th May 1936

 

The 1937 build date for "Sickle" on the HNBC site is clearly wrong - I'll let Ros know!

 

As December 1942 is the date generally given for conversion to ice-breakers, I always suggest they were full length boats only for a period of between 6 or 7 years.

 

At the moment I could not even prove if all of them ever actually carried, as it is generally recognised there were always more boats than available crews, and that many lay idle for long periods. Picture do exist of a full length "Tycho" working a butty (possibly "Thoth") and loaded, but I don't have anything that proves it for any of the others.

 

I tried to explain where these boats fit into the picture of the Grand Union Canal Carrying Co fleet in our blog here. But please note I tried to write this for people who were interested, but knew little about the subject - iti s not claimed to be a detailed "rivet counters" version of things!

 

EDITED: To add GUCCCo fleet numbers

Edited September 25, 2013 by alan_fincher

[Black Ibis]

What I am trying to do is work out how many remaining boats there are that are similar to Python. The reason for this is that I would like to try and draw up some sort of statement of her significance as a historic boat. Of course all historic boats are significant in as much as they have survived! I think it is broadly correct to say that almost all owners of historic boats like to see them as significant too. I am not trying to make out Python is any way more significant than any other boat but I want to try and work out the key things that make her significant.

 

I am very aware that probably the large majority of people, when they look at boats like Python just see a boat that was butchered by BW at some point in it's history. Without going into the rights and wrongs of what BW did to these vessels back in that time the result is that boats like Python and the others we are discussing have survived when there is a strong possibility that maybe not quite so many of them would have survived to this day if they had not had a valuable job to do at that point in their lives. Throughout history boats of all types have been adapted and modified to keep them useable as times change. It is easy to look back with horror at the way they were butchered but at that time their historic value was not significant, they were just ageing hulks that would either be scrapped or adapted for a new job of work.

 

The fact is that Python and others like her have a few chapters in their autobiography where they were work boats for BW. That is part of their history and even if it is a chapter that many of the purists would prefer to pretend had not happened it did happen! Over the last decade or so many of these boats have been reconstructed to the way the original builder intended. As more of them get reconstructed fewer examples survive of what BW did to ensure these boats were kept working.

 

Of course when investigating how many of these boats survive you start to uncover more and more examples and I am thrilled that people are still making suggestions of more as I feel this thread is one that could be useful for people to refer back to in future. It is all valuable information that novices like myself can read and learn from. However in my quest to try and collate data to show how significant our little Python is it can make her seem quite an insignificant vessel indeed as more and more examples come to light.

 

Greenie for you. Willow spent more of its life as a BW workboat with a crane in its hold has than it did as a Severn and Canal Carrying cargo boat. I am not sure if it would have survived if BW hadn't made use of it.

[pete harrison]

("Sextans" was renamed "Hesperus", which causes some confusion, as there is also a very well know wooden "Big Ricky" GUCCCo boat of that name.

 

 

HESPERUS is a Small Ricky motor.

[carlt]

HESPERUS is a Small Ricky motor.

I do wish they'd built a Big Ricky motor though....Just one, for me.

[pete harrison]

"The George & The Mary" (which has been known to be wong!) suggests the follwing build dates....

83 - Sextans - 7th January 1936

84 - Sickle - 17th March 1936

91 - Theophilus - 19th April 1936

93 - Tycho - 14th May 1936

 

The 1937 build date for "Sickle" on the HNBC site is clearly wrong - I'll let Ros know!

These dates are sourced from a document listing G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. pairings / engine & gearbox numbers / delivery dates, most of which appears to be correct but nobody seems to know where this document was sourced from.

 

W.J. Yarwood & Sons Ltd. yard list gives the delivery dates as:

 

521 - Sextans - 6th January 1936

522 - Sickle - 17th March 1936

524 - Theophilus - 18th April 1936

526 - Tycho - 14th May 1936

I can not comment on where the H.N.B.O.C. get their details from, its just a shame that these things get published on the internet without being sufficiently checked - especially as the information is readily available.

[Black Ibis]

Ros (who manages the HNBC website) is always looking for updates, if anyone spots any errors!

[pete harrison]

FENNY, NABURN, OAKLEY, PADDINGTON, PURTON and TIPTON were all shortened by B.W.B. for maintenance work in the North Eastern Division.

The following boats were in the following condition last time I saw them:

 

FENNY - back cabin was removed and decked with engine below deck but retained engine room as mess room - back cabin now replaced.

NABURN - square back cabin / engine room with engine in the back cabin - still intact when for disposal October 2009.

OAKLEY - square back cabin and fore cabin - back cabin now replaced.

PADDINGTON - retained original back cabin and engine room.

PURTON - square back cabin / engine room with engine in the back - still intact.

TIPTON - back cabin now replaced.

 

All remain shortened.

[Athy]

Quads?

 

"Sextans", "Sickle", "Theophilus" & "Tycho"

 

Admittedly only "Sickle" and "Tycho" now look like close sisters, and "Sextans" has gained 10 feet of "Thea" since.

 

What a superbly dramatic photo! Have a photogreeno.

As for Theophilus, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Quirky, yes; different, sure. Lovely? Nah. Perhaps you like her because she has a patio (though, unlike Sickle, at the blunty end).

[cheshire~rose]

 

As for Theophilus, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Quirky, yes; different, sure. Lovely? Nah. Perhaps you like her because she has a patio (though, unlike Sickle, at the blunty end).

 

 

 

Ah but I always go for the quirky ugly bugs. Of all the cars I have owned I think the one I loved the most was my Renault Dauphine.

 

Dave is still trying to work out what this says about him

[alan_fincher]

HESPERUS is a Small Ricky motor.

One all on the "unintentional error" front no then Pete!

 

(I do know that, of course!.....)

[Speedwheel]

Oh I like Theophilus! she looks rather lovely!

 

 

It was for sale a few months ago. I would love to have got my hands on her, to make a pair, but the £80k asking price had one too many zeros on it.

[alan_fincher]

 

It was for sale a few months ago. I would love to have got my hands on her, to make a pair, but the £80k asking price had one too many zeros on it.

 

I didn't see it, but presumably included transfer of a mooring at Little Venice ?

[Speedwheel]

 

I didn't see it, but presumably included transfer of a mooring at Little Venice ?

 

It did.

[cheshire~rose]

What a pity - that sort of figure

 

 

I didn't see it, but presumably included transfer of a mooring at Little Venice ?

What a pity when the price of a viable boat is inflated by the price of the mooring meaning people who might give an old boat the care they deserve are denied that opportunity

[Derek R.]

Sadly that encourages scrapping of the present vessel to replace with something modern just to get the mooring.

 

Ears to the ground? Queues forming?

[DaisyJ]

I researched Rentons history when I acquired it for the H&GCT. They have full copies of all the work I did at the Waterways Archive.

 

As far as I remember, the conversion was done in 1943, the blade was cut off at the same time as the current cabin was added in 1978, the blade is stored in the front of the boat as ballast.

 

The trust have no intention of unconvertings it, it is to be kept as a workboat.

[davidg]

Don't think this one has been mentioned yet:

 

.

 

Much altered from when it was a BW workboat as in the previous thread:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=58000&hl=antlia#entry1099028