when is a 65 barrus shire not a 65 barrus shire?

[peterboat]

Having had my boat for nearly two years I decided to do a second service on it. I previously changed the oil oil filter and primary fuel filter all sourced from motor factors. This time around its oil oil filter secondary fuel filter and air filter and thats when the fun started, the fuel filter has no numbers on it and neither does the air filter so I ordered them from Barrus. I provided the details and by return the filters turned up however the air filter was much larger than the original and no way would it fit the holder!! fearing a cxxk up I phoned barrus quoted all my Yanmar engine numbers and was told that my engine was either a 40, 45, or 50 hp Barrus shire!!!!! I have checked the original ad and the paperwork from the broker and all quoted my boat had a 65 barrus in it! Anyway this explains the lack of performance from my boat and lack of revs when working hard on the Trent. The question is under the sale off goods act I have been sold a pup and no doubt entitled to my money back however I have spent a fortune on her and really want her sorted out.

So what would you do?

 

 

peter

[Biggles]

Probably is a case, but would it be worth the bother. I had the same thing on my first boat. Supposed to be a Lister SR3 22hp, turned out to be an SL3 12hp.

 

65 in a NB on canals would probably be too much anyway and a smaller one a better match for fuel economy. If you only noticed it on the Trent, probably everything else on the engine, gearbox, prop is OK.

[matty40s]

new boat, you may have a chance of some recourse....... used boat , you or your surveyor should have picked up the detail.

[frangar]

I'm guessing if you brought it as a used boat from a broker then you have no come back.....if it was a new boat then maybe.....did you get a survey?

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[MtB]

I'd say if it was a new boat you have every chance of getting compensation if you really want it, assuming you have documentation stating it was a 65.

 

If second hand the same applies provided you can track down the seller (not the broker, who was only his agent) and sue him.

 

How much compensation would you consider you are due?

 

 

MtB

[matty40s]

 

 

How much compensation would you consider you are due?

 

 

MtB

20 hp every time he potters up and down the trent

[Biggles]

Forget it, move on, enjoy your boat. Going legal will only make the lawyers rich, they won't make your life any better. Did I ever mention I hate lawyers? I do have a best mate that is one though.

[Phil Ambrose]

Had the same experience, boat sold as having a 1.8 when in fact it turned out to be a 1.5. It was no big deal for me, I just lived with it.

Phil

[MtB]

Forget it, move on, enjoy your boat. Going legal will only make the lawyers rich, they won't make your life any better. Did I ever mention I hate lawyers? I do have a best mate that is one though.

 

I agree. This is what I was getting at.

 

Shame about you mate, I have one the same!

 

 

MtB

[peterboat]

Probably is a case, but would it be worth the bother. I had the same thing on my first boat. Supposed to be a Lister SR3 22hp, turned out to be an SL3 12hp.

 

65 in a NB on canals would probably be too much anyway and a smaller one a better match for fuel economy. If you only noticed it on the Trent, probably everything else on the engine, gearbox, prop is OK.

Unfortunatly its a 12 x 57 widebeam with wheelhouse!! and it has a 19 x 14 propeller which is correct for a 65

 

Peter

new boat, you may have a chance of some recourse....... used boat , you or your surveyor should have picked up the detail.

Trading standards think not if it says its a 65 then a 65 it should be the laws have changed a lot they say so we will see what the boss says on sunday

 

Peter

[MtB]

Unfortunatly its a 12 x 57 widebeam with wheelhouse!! and it has a 19 x 14 propeller which is correct for a 65

 

Peter

 

That sounds highly unlikely!

 

I had a 21 x 19 on my 35hp Beta BD3 which was perfect for that engine...!

 

 

MtB

[peterboat]

I'd say if it was a new boat you have every chance of getting compensation if you really want it, assuming you have documentation stating it was a 65.

 

If second hand the same applies provided you can track down the seller (not the broker, who was only his agent) and sue him.

 

How much compensation would you consider you are due?

 

 

MtB

To be honest if the correct prop was put on and the engine is a 50 (Barrus are looking for the engine delivery details) the difference between the 2 engines would do?

 

Peter

[alan_fincher]

 

That sounds highly unlikely!

 

I had a 21 x 19 on my 35hp Beta BD3 which was perfect for that engine...!

 

 

MtB

Won't a BD3 be a much slower revving engine than a Barrus Shire, and hence the two are not really comparable?

 

I could say "Sickle" is only 33HP, but believed to be propped at about 26" x 24"

 

Obviously the reduction on the box will come into it as well.

 

That said, without looking at any references, 19 x 14 sounds not a lot for a Barrs 65, I agree!

[peterboat]

That sounds highly unlikely!

 

I had a 21 x 19 on my 35hp Beta BD3 which was perfect for that engine...!

 

 

MtB

When the boat was out at Johnathon Wilsons we had a discussion about the prop and the various engine fitters told us it was ok the problem is that have a big swim so it gets plenty of water but you cant get the engine to go above 2000 rpm and max power is at 3000rpm so whatever it could develop it cant!!

 

Peter

[MtB]

Won't a BD3 be a much slower revving engine than a Barrus Shire, and hence the two are not really comparable?

 

 

Yes I was thinking this too after posting. The BD3 was 1400rpm max with a 2:1 reduction box. A 2500rpm Barrus would probably be fine with a 19 x 14 and 2:1 gear, except for stopping!

 

MtB

When the boat was out at Johnathon Wilsons we had a discussion about the prop and the various engine fitters told us it was ok the problem is that have a big swim so it gets plenty of water but you cant get the engine to go above 2000 rpm and max power is at 3000rpm so whatever it could develop it cant!!

 

Peter

 

Over-propping an underpowered engine is a good thing. Put the 'right' blade on and you find yourself cruising with the engine having to scream along at 2500rpm. Not nice.

 

MtB

[blackrose]

Unfortunatly its a 12 x 57 widebeam with wheelhouse!! and it has a 19 x 14 propeller which is correct for a 65

 

 

I'm not sure why MtB thinks a 19" x 14" prop would be too small for your boat and a 65hp engine? My boat is also 12' x 57' with a 55hp engine and I just had my original 19" x 13" prop reduced to 18 & 1/2" x 11 & 1/2" to get some more revs from the engine. It also depends on what the engine is supposed to rev to and the reduction ratio of your gearbox, but what many narrowboaters forget is that the dimensions of the boat is an additional factor. In my experience I'd say 19" x 14" prop would be about right for your boat with a 65hp engine.

That said, without looking at any references, 19 x 14 sounds not a lot for a Barrs 65, I agree!

 

But if you put that Barrus 65 on a 12ft x 57ft widebeam then I think it is.

 

I had this argument with someone else on the forum a few months ago. He got quite frustrated because I didn't take his advice (why would I when I knew he was wrong?) He seemed to think that the dimensions and weight of the boat weren't a factor and that the correct gearbox/prop combination can always achieve maximum revs on an engine irrespective of the size of the boat. However, any decent prop calculator will ask you to enter the dimensions of the boat.

 

http://www.vicprop.com/displacement_size.php

Edited August 31, 2013 by blackrose

[blackrose]

 

Over-propping an underpowered engine is a good thing. Put the 'right' blade on and you find yourself cruising with the engine having to scream along at 2500rpm. Not nice.

 

MtB

 

Over-propping to a degree perhaps, but when over-propping is seriously restricting engine revs and overloading the engine then it's not good at all. If Peter is only getting 2000rpm from a 3000rpm (max) engine, then I don't think he's in any danger of getting the 'right' blade. Remember that a 1" reduction in prop pitch will only equate to about 150 - 200rpm increase in engine revs, while a 1" reduction in diameter produces <100rpm. So there's a limit to what can be done. Peter could probably take 2 inches off the pitch and half an inch off the diameter of his prop and that should result in an extra 350 - 400 engine rpm.

 

Crowthers told me not to reduce the diameter of my prop because it's a big boat and the diameter is where the stopping power comes from, but Norris in Isleworth were concerned that the tip of the blades might be coming too close to the uxter plate causing some cavitation, so we decided to take half an inch off the diameter and an inch and a half off the pitch. I probably could have taken another half inch off the pitch but Norris said you shouldn't make the prop too flat otherwise you lose bite and increase prop slip in the water.

 

My engine runs much better since I had the prop re-pitched. From a maximum of 1,950rpm before the repitch I now get 2,200rpm, so although it only provided 250 extra rpm I can feel there's a bit more power and the engine sounds happier. Put it this way, had the prop not been repitched, then I'm not sure I'd have made it up the Kennet when it was still in spate that time I met you earlier this year.

Edited August 31, 2013 by blackrose

[nb Innisfree]

No one seems to include blade AREA in the equation, a standard prop has a blade area or BAR of 55%. If a prop needs to be bigger and there is no more room for a bigger diameter then the blades have to be widened, the only recourse is either a four blader or wider blades to convert engine power to thrust. Our first engine developed 33 bhp@ 2000rpm, as we could only accomodate a 17" prop Crowthers made us one with approx 70% BAR. 17x14x70%, spot on, allowed us to rev to 1950 rpm which made 33bhp seem very powerful.

 

Keith of Crowthers told me that pitch is based on whether the boat pulls away too fast or not when drive is selected at tickover.

 

Edited to change diameter to AREA!

Edited August 31, 2013 by nb Innisfree

[bargemast]

When the boat was out at Johnathon Wilsons we had a discussion about the prop and the various engine fitters told us it was ok the problem is that have a big swim so it gets plenty of water but you cant get the engine to go above 2000 rpm and max power is at 3000rpm so whatever it could develop it cant!!

 

Peter

 

Start with finding-out with the help of Barrus which engine you really have in your boat, be it a 40 / 45 or 50 Hp, then check the reduction of your gearbox after which you get in touch with Crowter and/or Norris to find out what size the right propellor for the engine and gearbox you've got should be, as right now you'll only have a part of the full power available as the engine won't rev over 2000n and as you wrote "maximum power is at 3000n".

 

Slightly overpropping is no serious problem, but in your case it's way too much, it's a bit like trying to go uphill in a car in a too high gear.

 

Peter.

[blackrose]

No one seems to include blade AREA in the equation, a standard prop has a blade area or BAR of 55%. If a prop needs to be bigger and there is no more room for a bigger diameter then the blades have to be widened, the only recourse is either a four blader or wider blades to convert engine power to thrust. Our first engine developed 33 bhp@ 2000rpm, as we could only accomodate a 17" prop Crowthers made us one with approx 70% BAR. 17x14x70%, spot on, allowed us to rev to 1950 rpm which made 33bhp seem very powerful.

 

Keith of Crowthers told me that pitch is based on whether the boat pulls away too fast or not when drive is selected at tickover.

 

Edited to change diameter to AREA!

 

Perhaps no one had included it because Peter's prop needs to be smaller, not bigger.

[nb Innisfree]

 

Perhaps no one had included it because Peter's prop needs to be smaller, not bigger.

I agree it doesn't really apply in this instance, it's just that in general discussions about prop sizes, diameter and pitch seem to be the only thing considered

[Northernboater]

Did you not check your engine identification plate on top of the engine before you bought it? it should have a Barrus brass plate on. stating the model "Shire" then something like 06 50 1 453 which is year(06) Horse Power(50) Issue No(1) Engine Serial Number(453) It's the easiest way to tell what engine you have. Where did the 65hp come from the plate or seller???

Edited September 1, 2013 by Northernboater

[Paul C]

Having had my boat for nearly two years

 

............

 

The question is under the sale off goods act I have been sold a pup and no doubt entitled to my money back however I have spent a fortune on her and really want her sorted out.

So what would you do?

 

 

peter

 

2 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Did you get it surveyed, you might be able to make a claim against the surveyor if the report misidentifies the engine.

[blackrose]

I'm not sure if the Sale of Goods Act applies to used goods, but if you bought the boat through a broker then in effect they are the retailer and they have misrepresented what they sold you, so it might be worth investigating this route along with the possibility of a claim against the surveyor. If the surveyor has actually stated that the boat has a Barrus 65 then you may have something to go on, but have a look at the terms & conditions of the survey to check for any limitations, exclusions and exemptions first.

 

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html

[Naughty Cal]

Would that still count two years on?

 

I'm sorry but if i I'm buying something I check before handing any money over that something as basic as the engine is as advertised!