All Electric

[Laurie St Lyon]

I am two months from achieving my 20 yr dream of living on the cut. I had to get rid of the wife to do it but what the heck? No more

 

As such I have been updating my knowledge of whats out there. Boy have things changed!

 

I came across the blog: (http://solarpowerednarrowboat.blogspot.co.uk/ )

 

Has anyone gone all electric propulsion/cooking or experience with large solar setups on the cut?

Although, I have no aversion to blazing a trail I would rather not reinvent the wheel! I have pulled together info from many sources but would prefer to hear from anyone with real world experience. Thanks.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Laurie St Lyon

[RLWP]

I suspect cooking is the thing that will be the biggest challenge. Converting electricity stored in batteries into heat is very inefficient

 

Some of the other things are working in your favour though like LED lights, the price of panels MPPT controllers and so on

 

You'd still be mostly trailblazing though, hope you are good at sums

 

Richard

[Ex- Member]

There are some fully solar boats about, I've seen a couple myself that are supposed to supply propulsion and all on board electric, Unsure about cooking though, as suggested, a highly inefficient approach, so I wouldn't even contemplate it.

 

You could get in touch with these people. http://solarboat.co.uk/ If you've not come across them already.

 

IMO it is perfectly doable, especially on widebeams with all the additional roof space.

[Grace and Favour]

And if you want electric propulsion too - - I believe you'll need a fairly hefty diesel generator........

 

(unless you're cruising in Africa!)

[Tony Brooks]

I do not believe an all solar narrow boat is a practical proposition if you want to travel reasonable distances at a reasonable speed. Especially in the winter. I was interested to see what looked very like an all solar boat (panels absolutely everywhere including the sides and "fold up boards on the roof) also had a heft diesel generator fitted into the cratch area - looked very much like an after thought to me. I also suspect that you would ruing some very expensive batteries over the winter months unless you had alternative charging.

 

Pity, because I would love to ditch the diesel.

 

I think the best you can hope for is enough solar charging to cover the normal electrical loads for maybe 9 moths of the year - that's with gas cooking and non-electrical water heating.

[blackrose]

You say you don't want to reinvent the wheel... So what's wrong with a properly installed LPG system exactly?

Edited August 3, 2013 by blackrose

[Grace and Favour]

I am two months from achieving my 20 yr dream of living on the cut. I had to get rid of the wife to do it but what the heck? No more

 

As such I have been updating my knowledge of whats out there. Boy have things changed!

 

I came across the blog: (http://solarpowerednarrowboat.blogspot.co.uk/ )

 

Has anyone gone all electric propulsion/cooking or experience with large solar setups on the cut?

Although, I have no aversion to blazing a trail I would rather not reinvent the wheel! I have pulled together info from many sources but would prefer to hear from anyone with real world experience. Thanks.

http://www.bauhausbarge.com/

[Nickhlx]

I would have gone for a hybrid to minimise on external fuel where practical but not to exclude it as that will severely constrain you in winter.

 

My target would be to have as much solar as possible/practical to fit on, a diesel engine ( Beta 43 or similar size depending on the boat), but also with an electric propulsion motor/dynamo for cruising where possible on electric, and also to charge at high currents when the diesel is running ( there was a company in Canal Boat detailing their conversion a while back), obviously a large battery bank to store the energy, gas for water heating and cooking, but an electric induction hob or kettle for last night cuppas without the gas fumes last thing at night, a solid fuel stove ( or diesel if you don't like the dust and fuel storage / ash disposal aspect) LED lights throughout, extensive insulation to minimise heating fuels consumption, and possibly a heat-exchanging ventilation system.

 

So by no means "all-electric", but depending on season, how much CCing you do and how power-hungry your lifestyle is, at least some of the time you can live and cruise on electric. People have said it is truly magical cruising by electric propulsion, virtually silently, and especially at night if that's your plan, but it would take a big battery bank and some charging beforehand.

 

It will also cost a lot more than conventional propulsion, not least because of not only the extra initial capital cost, but also because every few years the large and expensive battery bank will need replacing, depending on how you use it and how well you can look after it.

 

It would be a good blog to follow !

 

Nick

[DeanS]

Hi Laurie.

 

A decent set up for someone living on a boat, are the following:

 

1, Gas heater for hot water

2. Gas cooker

3. Coal stove for warmth in winter.

4. 230W solar with a 20Amp MPPT controller will help power a tv, and a laptop all day (and night)

5. Mobile phone with Internet access tethered to a laptop for keeping online.

6. A cheap Wilkinsons £15 tv aerial up on a pole.

7. A 220V fridge...powered by 1500W MSW invertor or a 12V fridge (more expensive).

 

Hope that helps you.

[Bobbybass]

Converting electricity stored in batteries into heat is very inefficient

 

Easy and I've done it.

 

Just angle grind next to them when they are charging !!

Hi Laurie.

 

A decent set up for someone living on a boat, are the following:

 

1, Gas heater for hot water

2. Gas cooker

3. Coal stove for warmth in winter.

4. 230W solar with a 20Amp MPPT controller will help power a tv, and a laptop all day (and night)

5. Mobile phone with Internet access tethered to a laptop for keeping online.

6. A cheap Wilkinsons £15 tv aerial up on a pole.

7. A 220V fridge...powered by 1500W MSW invertor or a 12V fridge (more expensive).

 

Hope that helps you.

If you look at the Alba TV's..they are amazingly low consumption.

..although not 12 volt..the 19 inch TV/DVD I got from Argos was 14 watt !

I ran my Pace 1000 Sky box on 12 volts...and total consumption of TV (240volt..inverter) and Sky box was about 2 amp hours !

I think the Alba 22 inch is about 20 watts.

[Arthur Brown]

Looking at old posts here, winter solar output is about 8% of summer peak so while summer cruising may be possible winter solar energy sufficiency may not be possible.without a HUGE panel array.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43603 and go to post two, gives you a free copy of the Victron manual on power on board. Lots of good info from an author who sails and writes for Victron with full knowledge of their product and how it can be used.

[ditchcrawler]

Here is a bit on Diesel electric boating http://worcesternb.blogspot.co.uk/ and another one is here http://www.floatingabode.co.uk/email.htm

[mrsmelly]

I am two months from achieving my 20 yr dream of living on the cut. I had to get rid of the wife to do it but what the heck? No more

 

As such I have been updating my knowledge of whats out there. Boy have things changed!

 

I came across the blog: (http://solarpowerednarrowboat.blogspot.co.uk/ )

 

Has anyone gone all electric propulsion/cooking or experience with large solar setups on the cut?

Although, I have no aversion to blazing a trail I would rather not reinvent the wheel! I have pulled together info from many sources but would prefer to hear from anyone with real world experience. Thanks.

Hi

 

All electric is doable but IMPOSSIBLE on just solar panels unless you only want to travel 3 inches per year and want to survive on salads. A generator of sorts is needed in the real world still im afraid, oh and a willingness to spend billions on fuel to run it. The reason seasoned boat DWELLERS have gas cookers, solid fuel heating and diesel engined propulsion is that it is still the very best option.

 

Tim

You say you don't want to reinvent the wheel... So what's wrong with a properly installed LPG system exactly?

A very sensible post.

 

Tim

[Arthur Brown]

With today's technology I suspect that a very expensive installation would permit you to do an occasional summer weekend cruise on solar electric power. You would always want a generator to be a get you home measure.

 

In winter the natural self discharge of lead acid batteries may prevent you ever holding a good state of charge over the winter in a bank scaled to provide traction power for a days cruise. This MAY lead to leaving the batteries degrading over the winter and performing less well next year.

[trackman]

Mention has been made of hybrid installations. Hybrid diesel electric propulsion isn't as good in a boat as for road or rail vehicles. The latter can use regenerative braking systems to recover a lot of power. Afaik this hasn't been developed for boats yet, sadly!

Hybrid is therefore comparatively inefficient for boating. Hybrid systems involve losses in the storage and recovery from storage of the power. Some efficiency is gained by running the engine at optimum speed whilst generating power, as compared with the varied and inefficient engine speeds in direct propulsion. However, I suspect that in real use this is unlikely to outweigh the losses I mentioned.

[Laurie St Lyon]

A lot fast replies. Thank you all very much. Not wishing to be ungrateful (dont you love that..because you know I am about to be? lol) but, some of the posts do seem a tadge "knee jerk...no one has done this so it can't be done"!

 

With the increase in both panel and motor efficiency and battery and charging technology I think it IS doable. Granted winter will be diffiicult in respect of solar power but by no means impossible. I am thinking more of cruising no more than 1 or two days a week. Initially from Kings Langley to Uxbridge and return. Then after I am sure that everything is sorted out prabably move onto the Kennet & Avon down to Bristol. My ex is taking kids to Cardiff so a bit nearer is needed for contact. I will have a small back up genset for emergencies.

 

I intend to have a woodburning stove. In fact I intend to buld my own rocket stove with dual wood/ wood pellet capability. This design Burns more efficiently so it is hotter and cleaner than a normal stove. (I am also probably going to have a play with thermocouple chargers. A few amps charge whenever you have a fire just attach to the chimney)

Thankfully I have an uncle who is a Mech/Eng and he taught me to weld properly. If I cross his palm with a decent pot of tea he will probably do it for me! lol!

This will provide heating and possibly cooking (it will have an oven). But I want an alternatve cooker too.

 

I understand about LPG but I also want to reduce my monthly outlay (and would rather not play hunt the gas supplier-I spent 6months over winter living in a caravan a few years ago working away from home-never again!) I intend to be a continuous cruiseand solar is (in that respects) free.

My type of work allows me to locum wherever I am.

I also want to take advantage of the CRT deduction for electric boats. Hybrids are not eligible they are also, as said, ineficient.

 

Batteries are a consumable but I am getting a handle on charging regimes, optimal size of battery bank,etc and so it is something I suspect if done right I should be able to replace on a rolling basis. Not quite sure why batteries in use/charge over winter would degrade that much if stored correctly.

And yes, as said by Richard (RLWP) above, I am getting to grips with the sums!....Sort of! lol! My first effort said small array would power the QE2 my next that a dozen panels on the rrof would let me run a battery radio! LOL! Sort of depends where you put the decimal point! Perhaps I should stop using a pin on the paprer and ask my friend the sparks! LOL!

 

Beyong propulsion my other electrical needs will be minimal. Electric back up shower? LED Lighting mainly. I dont have a tv as it is. I use a laptop for films or if in the mood a small projector. Otherwise it is pretty minimal and that is in a flat. So really only a fridge/freezer. Not sure on the freezer as from my research they seem rather juicy and the 12 or 24v ones are not really cold enough.

 

A lot will depend on how much money I have when the house is sold shortly. I may just have get a 2nd hand narrow (I hanker after a widebeam) and live like everyone else with deisal and gas and do it a bit at a time. I will be haunting you all with other questions on kit and if I do get it all together will certainly put up a blog and share. Thanks all. Laurie

[ditchcrawler]

I think you are way off the mark. 12/24 fridges and freezers not cold enough

Electric shower

CCing one or two days a week between Kings Langley to Uxbridge

Thermocouple battery charging into 500 ah+ battery bank

[Laurie St Lyon]

Hi Laurie.

 

A decent set up for someone living on a boat, are the following:

 

1, Gas heater for hot water

2. Gas cooker

3. Coal stove for warmth in winter.

4. 230W solar with a 20Amp MPPT controller will help power a tv, and a laptop all day (and night)

5. Mobile phone with Internet access tethered to a laptop for keeping online.

6. A cheap Wilkinsons £15 tv aerial up on a pole.

7. A 220V fridge...powered by 1500W MSW invertor or a 12V fridge (more expensive).

 

Hope that helps you.

Thanks dean. A practical set up and what, as I say in my full post below, I may end up with.

http://www.bauhausbarge.com/

THANYOU> a great link. I totally missed this one. They have a wealth of info on how they did it..

[Laurie St Lyon]

I think you are way off the mark. 12/24 fridges and freezers not cold enough

Electric shower

CCing one or two days a week between Kings Langley to Uxbridge

Thermocouple battery charging into 500 ah+ battery bank

In what way? I am open to correction on the fridges. That is what I have read. I did have a 12v in the caravan but it never worked right so I ripped out.

 

An electric shower off an inverter. Lots of boats seem to have them or perhaps I misread, I intend it for days when I dont put the stove on. Mind you a Rocket stove heats up so fast, and gives out such heat, that I may not need it more than an hour in the morning. It depends on the efficiency of my design. Still tweaking that.

 

The thermo couple is mosly for the novelty of trying the technology. I do not intend to rely on it! LOL!

 

The reason for this area of travel is that I want live aboard and cruise a stretch of water where I know the area and can get help if I need it until I know everything works. A few months shake down over winter as it were. I do have friends who live on the cut and basically do the same as they are mobile tradesmen and known in the W,London area.

I would be able to work in London for a bit then move further afield when ready.

There are some fully solar boats about, I've seen a couple myself that are supposed to supply propulsion and all on board electric, Unsure about cooking though, as suggested, a highly inefficient approach, so I wouldn't even contemplate it.

 

You could get in touch with these people. http://solarboat.co.uk/ If you've not come across them already.

 

IMO it is perfectly doable, especially on widebeams with all the additional roof space.

Thank you...An encouraging word! Hurrah! LOL! Reading through the linked site thanks!

Hi

 

All electric is doable but IMPOSSIBLE on just solar panels unless you only want to travel 3 inches per year and want to survive on salads. A generator of sorts is needed in the real world still im afraid, oh and a willingness to spend billions on fuel to run it. The reason seasoned boat DWELLERS have gas cookers, solid fuel heating and diesel engined propulsion is that it is still the very best option.

 

Tim

I quote from the site kindly supplied by "Julynian" which says: Our latest project, a 55 foot narrowboat, is silently cruising the waterways. High efficiency solar panels cover most of the cabin roof. Two horse power of solar power and a one ton battery drive a ten horse power motor. The boat is capable of one hundred miles a week without a drop of fuel," A tadge MORE than 3 inches.

[Dalslandia]

We have to separate hybrids from hybrids, serie hybrid, where a engine drive a generator, that charge batteries via a charger, the batteries then power the motor via a controler, with 5-10% losses in every step.

 

A Parallell hybrid, where engine drive propeller and generator at the same time, or the generator become a motor and drive the prop shaft directly, using engine on bigger lakes or rivers, or faster canal stretches, or when runing down the batteries. or when cooking or using the washing/dryer

 

An smaller electric motor can be used with parallell hybrid then serie hybrid, with stretches with many locks, about half the time is in locks, so if cruising 6 hours a day, only about 3-4 h is at canal speed. say it need 4-5kW at canal speed. so 12 to 20 kWh plus reserve will be needed, some of that can/will come from solar panels if not all on a wide beam with possibilitys to bigger areas. And shore line charging at night with increasing number of places that provide charging points.

 

A parallell hybrid can have a smaller batt bank then pure electric and serie hybrid, and have the safety of two system engine or motor, if any fail.

 

A battery bank of 20 kWh that can be discharged to 80 or 50% depending of type of battery, the traction type 2V is probably what give most for the money.

 

so we need ? for a nb 24 to 40 kWh of batteries, at 48V it is 500 - 800 Ah,

correct me on the traction batteries if the useful charge of 50% is the rated number, ?

Edited August 4, 2013 by Dalslandia

[RLWP]

Two horse power of solar power and a one ton battery drive a ten horse power motor. "

 

So...

 

An hour's cruising with 100% efficient charging needs five hours charging

 

100 miles at 4 mph (very good going) is 25 hours, which needs 125 hours of good sunlight to recharge. No allowance for anything other than propulsion

 

I'm not sure how to separate the facts from the hype in those kinds of statement. This is why you are going to need to be really, really good at sums and to do a lot of reading around motors, batteries and electronics. You'll need this to get through the sales talk to the reality

 

Richard

[ditchcrawler]

In what way? I am open to correction on the fridges. That is what I have read. I did have a 12v in the caravan but it never worked right so I ripped out.

12/24 volt fridges are not what you find in a caravan, they are basically gas fridges with a 12 volt connection to keep them cool while towing.

 

An electric shower off an inverter. Lots of boats seem to have them or perhaps I misread, I intend it for days when I dont put the stove on. Mind you a Rocket stove heats up so fast, and gives out such heat, that I may not need it more than an hour in the morning. It depends on the efficiency of my design. Still tweaking that.

An electric shower is 5-10 Kw that will need some inverter and charged battery bank. 5 min shower could use 70Ah with a current flow of around 800 Amps

​Have you read the requirements for stoves on boats?

 

The thermo couple is mosly for the novelty of trying the technology. I do not intend to rely on it! LOL!

Fine I thought you were serious

 

The reason for this area of travel is that I want live aboard and cruise a stretch of water where I know the area and can get help if I need it until I know everything works. A few months shake down over winter as it were. I do have friends who live on the cut and basically do the same as they are mobile tradesmen and known in the W,London area.

I would be able to work in London for a bit then move further afield when ready.

That is not continuously cruising. Maybe you have friends that do it but no way does it meet the requirements of CCing

Edited August 4, 2013 by ditchcrawler

[Laurie St Lyon]

 

In what way? I am open to correction on the fridges. That is what I have read. I did have a 12v in the caravan but it never worked right so I ripped out.

12/24 volt fridges are not what you find in a caravan, they are basically gas fridges with a 12 volt connection to keep them cool while towing.

 

An electric shower off an inverter. Lots of boats seem to have them or perhaps I misread, I intend it for days when I dont put the stove on. Mind you a Rocket stove heats up so fast, and gives out such heat, that I may not need it more than an hour in the morning. It depends on the efficiency of my design. Still tweaking that.

An electric shower is 5-10 Kw that will need some inverter and charged battery bank. 5 min shower could use 70Ah with a current flow of around 800 Amps

​Have you read the requirements for stoves on boats?

 

The thermo couple is mosly for the novelty of trying the technology. I do not intend to rely on it! LOL!

Fine I thought you were serious

 

The reason for this area of travel is that I want live aboard and cruise a stretch of water where I know the area and can get help if I need it until I know everything works. A few months shake down over winter as it were. I do have friends who live on the cut and basically do the same as they are mobile tradesmen and known in the W,London area.

I would be able to work in London for a bit then move further afield when ready.

That is not continuously cruising. Maybe you have friends that do it but no way does it meet the requirements of CCing

 

Thanks for the info on fridges.

 

The CRT "requirements" to comply with cc are that you move "neighbourhoods" every 14 days. Its on their faq. The definition of neighbourhood" is rather imprecise but they seem to use a defined geographic area, I suspect that more people do this than actually are on one long meander through the canal/river system. (I did go into it clearly.-I'm a (currently non-practicing) Solicitor).

They also seem to interprete it reasonably. However, that may well change. We will see.

 

I may well wind up locuming up and down the thames valley! Or at least Reading to Bristol!

 

So...

 

An hour's cruising with 100% efficient charging needs five hours charging

 

100 miles at 4 mph (very good going) is 25 hours, which needs 125 hours of good sunlight to recharge. No allowance for anything other than propulsion

 

I'm not sure how to separate the facts from the hype in those kinds of statement. This is why you are going to need to be really, really good at sums and to do a lot of reading around motors, batteries and electronics. You'll need this to get through the sales talk to the reality

 

Richard

That company have ceased to supply full systems themselves but now provide information on their websites.

I think that 100 miles was on just the battery bank. You then need to recharge.

the point is how many people actually do thats sort of mileage actually it is 5 hours a day. so start at 1 after lunch you have had a morning to recharge. stop for tea and you get another couple of hours. Plus you are getting a trickle all days. Seems not unreasonable. If they add charging points (which I would access in an emergency) then the prospect really becomes viable.

[JDR]

Another consideration of electric drive if you plan to head for Bristol from London is having enough power to punch against a strong flow for extended periods of time. Not really an issue on canals, With a 35bhp diesel and 18 ton boat the Thames can be slow going upstream when on Yellow boards, especially on narrow sections and when getting closer to weirs. You could get around this to an extent by heading down the Oxford and onto the Thames heading downstream but would still need enough power to go faster than the flow to have steerage. The Kennet from Reading to Newbury can be interesting after rain and outside summer, especially approaching Tyle Mill, Woolhampton, approaching Newbury and Newbury Town lock. Kintbury to Bath on the K&A would be ideal as no current to deal with.

Edited August 6, 2013 by JDR

[dor]

 

 

Batteries are a consumable but I am getting a handle on charging regimes, optimal size of battery bank,etc and so it is something I suspect if done right I should be able to replace on a rolling basis. Not quite sure why batteries in use/charge over winter would degrade that much if stored correctly.

 

Not a good idea to replace single batteries in a bank if you can avoid it.

 

What will kill your batteries is nothing to do with storage it is all about charging. Batteries that are not fully charged regularly will sulphate and can be useless in a matter of months. And fully charged takes hours. Even boaters with a 440AHr bank spend 8 or 10 hours charging the batteries once a week as well as a couple of hours a day. It's all to do with how batteries take the charge. Doesn't matter how many sources of power you have, the charging rate is determined by the battery and the only way to increase it is to increase the charge voltage and that has limitations. For example, a 100 A alternator may put 80 or so amps into the batteries when it starts up, but after half an hour that will be down to say 30 amps. The last 8 hours, to get fully charged, will only see a few amps but they are needed to get the batteries up to 100% SOC. Not doing this regularly will rapidly degrade the batteries.

 

 

 

An electric shower off an inverter. Lots of boats seem to have them or perhaps I misread

 

As for the electric shower - I don't know anyone with one of those on a boat. Even a small one is 7Kw which will draw about 600 amps at 12V. And that is assuming the batteries can maintain the current which is very unlikely.