Chester, Dee Branch

[Heartland]

I was interested to know when that new housing development was completed beside the SU branch to the Dee at Chester, which includes a lift bridge and extension/new lock adjoining the original river lock chamber.

 

And, can boats pass onto the tidal Dee here now. The new housing alongside the former river wharves would seem to be a useful mooring point for boats choosing to lock down, what looks like private moorings at present.

 

On this section by the way is Chance 2, a wooden butty, now a house boat. Wonder if it did work for Chance & Hunt?

 

Ray Shill

[mark99]

I was told that the Dee Branch there has silted up stopping some or one of the locks from operating not sure how true this is or whether there are plans to de-silt - the volume of water spilling over the lock would suggest that silt would eventually be an issue.

 

The wooden butty I think is being restored presently.

[Paul C]

The houses have been there for ages, at least 15 years. The last 2 locks aren't in a fit condition to get onto the Dee. I think the last one is missing the gates or they have rotted away. I believe there are plans to restore this bit and allow passage on/off the (tidal) Dee. It would need proper timing, to get over the weir (there is a small gate at the side of it to increase available draft, but it needs setting up by walking over a bit of the weir while the tide is out).

[BuckbyLocks]

See

Boat Identification

Started by RogerM, Apr 12 2012 10:48 PM

on this bit of the forum

[Hastings]

 

 

On this section by the way is Chance 2, a wooden butty, now a house boat. Wonder if it did work for Chance & Hunt?

 

Ray Shill

Hi Ray

 

Yes, it's an old Chance & Hunt boat, one of only a known handful of survivors of what was once a very extensive fleet.

 

Plug for readers generally ... it features in our brand new book "Historic Working Narrow Boats Today", along with 464 other boats, all in full colour photos, from www.canalbookshop.co.uk, or direct from us.

 

Peter

Audlem Mill

[pete harrison]

Hi Ray

 

Yes, it's an old Chance & Hunt boat, one of only a known handful of survivors of what was once a very extensive fleet.

 

Peter

Audlem Mill

Is it, or are you just expressing popular opinion ?

 

I have been researching 'historic' narrow boats for over 30 years and although this boat (under five different names !) has its own file within my records I have nothing that can positively connect it to Chance and Hunt Ltd.. Previous owners have also claimed it to be exThomas Clayton (Oldbury) Ltd. with build dates ranging from 1917 to 1936 - all of which is total rubbish.

Edited May 31, 2013 by pete harrison

[Heartland]

Thanks for all responses

Chance 2 whatever its history is clearly a wooden boat- have you any ideas Pete?

 

Ray Shill

[Laurence Hogg]

The river Dee branch is closed until further notice (CRT). This is a shame as all the locks were in working order, Chris Coburn and myself passed up them in 1996 and down them in 1998. The only problem in 1998 was silt blocking the opening of the bottom lock gates, dutifly it was dug out by local IWA and a few helpers and we got down the Dee. The Dee is a very interesting bit of cruising either upstream or down.

The problem here is that virtually no one used the branch, so it was a case of use it or lose it, you lost it!

[Ian Mac]

The boat which is currently called Chance II and moored in Chester is definitely an ex oil boat, one can see the remains to the two oil tight stanks required by the Public Health act to separate the cabins from the cargo. It is also the boat that John Seymore had converted and wrote about in this boat on canals. That states that it was previously a C&H boat. It still has the Hosjkin cone propulsion system which he had fitted, installed, although it does not currently work. We did quite an extensive survey of the boat when it was last up for sale, as we still toy with the idea of owning a butty, but we thought it would take to much work to make her usable for regular canal travel. Also it is well recorded that TCO sold boats to C&H and that C&H did not normally build there own but bought second hand, so she was probably a TCO boat when new. She is an ex horse boat,and had a bow cabin originally, by the look of the hull. There has also been some major work undertaken some time in the past as some of the wooden knees have been doubled up, both in the front and back swims.The hull was watertight, when she arrived in Chester 15 months ago.

[Hastings]

Is it, or are you just expressing popular opinion ?

 

I have been researching 'historic' narrow boats for over 30 years and although this boat (under five different names !) has its own file within my records I have nothing that can positively connect it to Chance and Hunt Ltd.. Previous owners have also claimed it to be exThomas Clayton (Oldbury) Ltd. with build dates ranging from 1917 to 1936 - all of which is total rubbish.

Point taken. I respect greatly your work over very many years, and I'm sure you're right that its provenance is uncertain, and I probably jumped on a bandwagon. But I suppose that the problem is that whilst nothing definitely connects this boat to Chance & Hunt, perhaps equally nothing doesn't, so popular opinion might be right (or not!). We may never know.

 

It's a bit like Saturn, Raymond and a few other rebuilt boats. What we've got now are obviously not the original boats, but using your phrase "popular opinion", they seem to be regarded as those boats. Much of them is of course not very old, though some bits are original, or at least, very old. Wooden boats especially are like that, and little if anything of any 100 year old wooden boat is likely to be original. The Trigger's broom concept is relevant. I do accede that Chance 2 may not be genuine, but it could be (in part), and we'll probably never know. The fact that we can't prove that it's genuine doesn't mean that it is not.

 

I saw Friendship many times at Suttons Stop in the mid 1960s, and with due deference to Rose and Joe Skinner, I have to say that it was rather tatty and in poor condition then. It isn't like that now. I don't know what work has been done to it in the last 50 years, but I suspect that it's not exactly the same Friendship I saw! So, is it really the boat built by Sephtons at Suttons in the 1920s? (Rhetorical question, perhaps).

 

Historic boats will keep on turning up, possibly incorporated into other boats, or heavily disguised, and I suspect that proof will be difficult in many cases. But that's the fun ... there is no complete/finite list, or ever will be, and surmise and opinion have to be taken account of.

 

There will be errors in my book, and I'm hoping that people send me corrections. But what I'm happy about is that there is at least now a book with images of more than half the boats as they are now.

[Timleech]

It still has the Hosjkin cone propulsion system which he had fitted,months ago.

 

That'll be a Hotchkiss cone

 

 

Tim

[pete harrison]

The boat which is currently called Chance II and moored in Chester is definitely an ex oil boat, one can see the remains to the two oil tight stanks required by the Public Health act to separate the cabins from the cargo. It is also the boat that John Seymore had converted and wrote about in this boat on canals. That states that it was previously a C&H boat. It still has the Hosjkin cone propulsion system which he had fitted, installed, although it does not currently work. We did quite an extensive survey of the boat when it was last up for sale, as we still toy with the idea of owning a butty, but we thought it would take to much work to make her usable for regular canal travel. Also it is well recorded that TCO sold boats to C&H and that C&H did not normally build there own but bought second hand, so she was probably a TCO boat when new. She is an ex horse boat,and had a bow cabin originally, by the look of the hull. There has also been some major work undertaken some time in the past as some of the wooden knees have been doubled up, both in the front and back swims.The hull was watertight, when she arrived in Chester 15 months ago.

I wonder where John Seymore (Seymour ?) got his information from on this boats past. It may well be a former Chance & Hunt Ltd. boat but until some evidence is found this is all heresay. I am aware of about a dozen operators of decked tank boats working across the B.C.N. and this boat could have come from any of these.

 

It is news to me that Thomas Clayton (Oldbury) Ltd. sold boats to Chance & Hunt Ltd., although there is no doubt that Chance & Hunt Ltd. sold boats to Thomas Clayton (Oldbury) Ltd.. I have a thorough transcript of Thomas Clayton (Oldbury) Ltd. own records listing 143 narrow boat and 17 wide boat acquisitions and disposals, backed up by my own databases of three sets of B.C.N. gauge registers and databases of all available midlands health registers. I also have the Birmingham Sanitary Inspector's original handbook for the implementation and operation of the Canal Boat Act. Interestingly only about 25% of Chance & Hunt Ltd. boats were decked tank boats, the remainder largely being open boats fitted with removable iron tanks or boilers.

 

Although I have no specific interest in the Chance & Hunt Ltd. fleet I did provided the Boat Museum Society with a fleet list based upon the documentation that I have full access to (see above). This fleet list is freely available on the internet. A google search of "chance hunt fleet list" should find it as the first entry.

 

It's a bit like Saturn, Raymond and a few other rebuilt boats. What we've got now are obviously not the original boats, but using your phrase "popular opinion", they seem to be regarded as those boats. Much of them is of course not very old, though some bits are original, or at least, very old. Wooden boats especially are like that, and little if anything of any 100 year old wooden boat is likely to be original. The Trigger's broom concept is relevant. I do accede that Chance 2 may not be genuine, but it could be (in part), and we'll probably never know. The fact that we can't prove that it's genuine doesn't mean that it is not.

It is certainly not my opinion that RAYMOND and SATURN are the original boats, both of which were destroyed by the preservation organisations that were caring for them. I am not sure that the boat currently named CHANCE II falls into this catagory.

Edited June 1, 2013 by pete harrison

[nebulae]

Went past the entrance lock into the Dee yesterday.It looks in worse condition than Welsh Frampton before restoration. It does silt up quickly below the bottom gates. Perhaps a classic case of needing a campaign rally?.

[Derek R.]

Is access to the River Dee a desirable thing for cruising boaters?

Does it connect with extra miles of attractive waterways?

If it is not, then it is likely it will not be used, and it will - especially being tidal - get silted up again very quickly without ongoing dredging.

What then, would a campaigning rally to de-silt and make good the locks to gain access to the Dee when apart from a few bold spirits wishing to say 'they did it' - really achieve?

 

This is rather like a copy-cat desire to see a full size working Foxton inclined plane. Sincere desire to re-instate something lost, but where are the benefits in a day and age where cruising is about backwater places in safe waters where amenities are on tap, or secure mooring are available. Does the Dee offer any of these things? Is this not just another White Elephant idea when other places could benefit from cash input and return fresh miles and destinations?

 

Some sleeping dogs are best left as they are.

[MoominPapa]

Is access to the River Dee a desirable thing for cruising boaters?

Does it connect with extra miles of attractive waterways?

If it is not, then it is likely it will not be used, and it will - especially being tidal - get silted up again very quickly without ongoing dredging.

What then, would a campaigning rally to de-silt and make good the locks to gain access to the Dee when apart from a few bold spirits wishing to say 'they did it' - really achieve?

The river Dee upstream from Chester is very desirable boating. I have very fond childhood memories of days out in my Grandad's cruiser, launched from a trailer at the Sandy Lane slipway. The only knowledge I have about the tidal stretch linking the canal to this is the from the Tuesday Night Club's excellent account. It's certainly not for the faint-hearted, but it's probably less taxing than the Ribble link, and if it was as well managed and supported as the Ribble, far more boaters would do it.

 

MP.

[Laurence Hogg]

The boat which is currently called Chance II and moored in Chester is definitely an ex oil boat, one can see the remains to the two oil tight stanks required by the Public Health act to separate the cabins from the cargo. It is also the boat that John Seymore had converted and wrote about in this boat on canals. That states that it was previously a C&H boat. It still has the Hosjkin cone propulsion system which he had fitted, installed, although it does not currently work. We did quite an extensive survey of the boat when it was last up for sale, as we still toy with the idea of owning a butty, but we thought it would take to much work to make her usable for regular canal travel. Also it is well recorded that TCO sold boats to C&H and that C&H did not normally build there own but bought second hand, so she was probably a TCO boat when new. She is an ex horse boat,and had a bow cabin originally, by the look of the hull. There has also been some major work undertaken some time in the past as some of the wooden knees have been doubled up, both in the front and back swims.The hull was watertight, when she arrived in Chester 15 months ago.

 

Chance & Hunt had their own full length sideslip dock in Oldbury, I have two very good photos of it which I would post but the photo upload on here still isnt working. As far as I am aware they built some of their own fleet on this dock, it was situated on an arm going off the old main line just east of Valencia wharf.

 

Point taken. I respect greatly your work over very many years, and I'm sure you're right that its provenance is uncertain, and I probably jumped on a bandwagon. But I suppose that the problem is that whilst nothing definitely connects this boat to Chance & Hunt, perhaps equally nothing doesn't, so popular opinion might be right (or not!). We may never know.

 

It's a bit like Saturn, Raymond and a few other rebuilt boats. What we've got now are obviously not the original boats, but using your phrase "popular opinion", they seem to be regarded as those boats. Much of them is of course not very old, though some bits are original, or at least, very old. Wooden boats especially are like that, and little if anything of any 100 year old wooden boat is likely to be original. The Trigger's broom concept is relevant. I do accede that Chance 2 may not be genuine, but it could be (in part), and we'll probably never know. The fact that we can't prove that it's genuine doesn't mean that it is not.

 

I saw Friendship many times at Suttons Stop in the mid 1960s, and with due deference to Rose and Joe Skinner, I have to say that it was rather tatty and in poor condition then. It isn't like that now. I don't know what work has been done to it in the last 50 years, but I suspect that it's not exactly the same Friendship I saw! So, is it really the boat built by Sephtons at Suttons in the 1920s? (Rhetorical question, perhaps).

Friendship is very much the boat you saw at Sutton stop, very little was done to renovate her apart from touching up the paintwork, this work Tony Lewery did to an excellent level. Preserved as she is is how so many other wooden boats should have been preserved, at least we have Sephtons work before our eyes, not an intewrpretaion like others.

Historic boats will keep on turning up, possibly incorporated into other boats, or heavily disguised, and I suspect that proof will be difficult in many cases. But that's the fun ... there is no complete/finite list, or ever will be, and surmise and opinion have to be taken account of.

 

There will be errors in my book, and I'm hoping that people send me corrections. But what I'm happy about is that there is at least now a book with images of more than half the boats as they are now.

[Paul C]

Is access to the River Dee a desirable thing for cruising boaters?

Does it connect with extra miles of attractive waterways?

If it is not, then it is likely it will not be used, and it will - especially being tidal - get silted up again very quickly without ongoing dredging.

What then, would a campaigning rally to de-silt and make good the locks to gain access to the Dee when apart from a few bold spirits wishing to say 'they did it' - really achieve?

 

In fairness, one could say this about any canal/river which doesn't complete a ring. There still seems to be an amount of interest and support in restoring them though.

[magpie patrick]

In fairness, one could say this about any canal/river which doesn't complete a ring. There still seems to be an amount of interest and support in restoring them though.

 

Seconded: especially given the popularity of the Ribble Link and the Liverpool Link, neither of which were exactly cheap to create. The Dee Branch is already there and is still in a condition whereby reversal of neglect could reopen it.

 

Ironically, as canals overall have got more popular, the mainstream waterways have become highly populated with all-steel narrow boats whilst smaller, more versatile craft suited to more adventurous cruising have fallen out of favour. My own boat, Juno, would handle the Dee through Chester with no problem, considerably better than most narrow boats, including my previous boat Ripple, can handle the Ribble Link.

 

The two routes referred to above are also heavily regulated, a charge that some once made against the Dee Branch, but now operating to a timetable seems to have become much more acceptable, so long as officialdom creates the timetable. That wouldn't be difficult on the Dee.

[Laurence Hogg]

One problem with the DEE going upstream is the water gate, I have no idea if this is still functioning but I understand its the councils responsibility. Downstream is easy as far as Saltney then you need to be adventurous to say the least!

[Heartland]

Perhaps the navigation could be encouraged between Chester and Saltney. At Saltney the Great Western railway once had wharves and quays for interchange with coastal trading vessels. Could a safe haven for craft to lock up into be made? Is this possible? I doubt if John Glynnes Canal that used to exchange coal at Saltney in the 18th Century is a feasible link, but the brook course may well be a possibility.

 

Ray Shill

[Ian Mac]

I wonder where John Seymore (Seymour ?) got his information from on this boats past. It may well be a former Chance & Hunt Ltd. boat but until some evidence is found this is all heresay. I am aware of about a dozen operators of decked tank boats working across the B.C.N. and this boat could have come from any of these.

 

It is certainly not my opinion that RAYMOND and SATURN are the original boats, both of which were destroyed by the preservation organisations that were caring for them. I am not sure that the boat currently named CHANCE II falls into this catagory.

An interesting problem with a wooden boat this. Given that the wood rots in between 20 and 35 years and needs to be replaced. There are very few "original" wooden boats around, I would suggest that Chance II has a lot of new timber from the early 60's in her. The best way of rebuilding a wooden boat is to take them apart carefully measuring everything, and then start again. This was very hard with Saturn as it was basically soil not wood at all. Another problem is that each master boat builder did the job a different way and we now know that some of those ways led to quick failure of the construction - iron nails for example, so what are you advocating for a wooden boat? Do a Frendship and store them in a shed or a Pluto and let the locals set fire to the remains, or NWM and have to "tidy up" the important bits because some program maker doesn't understand what the bits of rotting wood stored behind a build are, and that a sunken boat is not rotting as fast, but you can't inspect it or use it at all.

 

As to John Seymour - you were correct with the spelling:) I believe he died some time ago, but maybe his family will remember something of the travels and boats, as I believe they lived on Chance II for a good while.

[magpie patrick]

One problem with the DEE going upstream is the water gate, I have no idea if this is still functioning but I understand its the councils responsibility. Downstream is easy as far as Saltney then you need to be adventurous to say the least!

 

The watergate isn't needed for all vessels, although I will concede it is a fascinating relic of a different era in navigation. If there is the will to do it (and that may be the problem, there isn't) it shouldn't be that hard to repair or replace it.

 

An interesting problem with a wooden boat this. Given that the wood rots in between 20 and 35 years and needs to be replaced. There are very few "original" wooden boats around, I would suggest that Chance II has a lot of new timber from the early 60's in her. The best way of rebuilding a wooden boat is to take them apart carefully measuring everything, and then start again. This was very hard with Saturn as it was basically soil not wood at all. Another problem is that each master boat builder did the job a different way and we now know that some of those ways led to quick failure of the construction - iron nails for example, so what are you advocating for a wooden boat? Do a Frendship and store them in a shed or a Pluto and let the locals set fire to the remains, or NWM and have to "tidy up" the important bits because some program maker doesn't understand what the bits of rotting wood stored behind a build are, and that a sunken boat is not rotting as fast, but you can't inspect it or use it at all.

 

As to John Seymour - you were correct with the spelling:) I believe he died some time ago, but maybe his family will remember something of the travels and boats, as I believe they lived on Chance II for a good while.

 

Certainly Juno could set off around the North Wales Coast from here, and with considerably less administrative hassle than leaving via the Mersey. How many people like me are there though that own boats like Juno and would try it? Probably not many, but I still think it wouldn't be that difficult to get the Dee Branch open and keep it open, if only enough people wanted it done.

 

We really shouldn't be accepting any loss of any waterway, especially one with navigation structures such as locks. What exactly is the point of me, as Chairman of the Somerset Coal Canal doing promoting a restoration is once I'm gone general indifference leads to it and other waterways being closed.

[Neil TNC]

The river Dee upstream from Chester is very desirable boating. I have very fond childhood memories of days out in my Grandad's cruiser, launched from a trailer at the Sandy Lane slipway. The only knowledge I have about the tidal stretch linking the canal to this is the from the Tuesday Night Club's excellent account. It's certainly not for the faint-hearted, but it's probably less taxing than the Ribble link, and if it was as well managed and supported as the Ribble, far more boaters would do it.

 

MP.

In-dee-dy!

To be honest, when we went up through the Watergate in April 2004, it was not really necessary, we could have gone straight over the weir. We knew with a day up at Farndon we would get back as we still had another two days before HW Springs. With the tides right, the only taxing part of the navigating was the shoals where the R Alyn joins and generally a bit shallow, on the straight run up to Farndon Bridge. The watergate is "managed" by United Utilities. It was unlocked at the time of out passage, due to the Lady Grosvenor wooden trip boat going up to Taylors for it's yearly MCA inspection. AFAIK the entrance to the Dee Locks Branch was allowed to silt up when this ceased. The big steel trip boats are craned out yearly into the Council Car park, further up stream. I dunno if the Lady Grosvenor still operates. The IWA Attempted to get their NB Jubilee up over the weir during it's last big out, but Chester Branch had Jubilee at a time not consistent with high spring tides.

http://www.tuesdaynightclub.co.uk/Tour_04/Tour04_11.html

 

Later on in 2004 we got James Griffin's "Ocean Princess" back onto the inland waterways system via the tidal Dee and Dee Locks Branch.

http://www.tuesdaynightclub.co.uk/OP_Scot/OPSCOT3.html

[Pluto]

For those who don't know the water gate in the weir at Chester, these photos give some idea. One problem is that because the gate is, in effect, at right angles to the river, the length of boat which can use it is restricted to less than 72 feet.

[Timleech]

An interesting problem with a wooden boat this. Given that the wood rots in between 20 and 35 years and needs to be replaced. There are very few "original" wooden boats around, I would suggest that Chance II has a lot of new timber from the early 60's in her. The best way of rebuilding a wooden boat is to take them apart carefully measuring everything, and then start again. This was very hard with Saturn as it was basically soil not wood at all. Another problem is that each master boat builder did the job a different way and we now know that some of those ways led to quick failure of the construction - iron nails for example, so what are you advocating for a wooden boat? Do a Frendship and store them in a shed or a Pluto and let the locals set fire to the remains, or NWM and have to "tidy up" the important bits because some program maker doesn't understand what the bits of rotting wood stored behind a build are, and that a sunken boat is not rotting as fast, but you can't inspect it or use it at all.

 

As to John Seymour - you were correct with the spelling:) I believe he died some time ago, but maybe his family will remember something of the travels and boats, as I believe they lived on Chance II for a good while.

 

Not true, you may be thinking of Symbol.

Saturn had the majority of its original timber replaced during its working life as an hotel boat. See pic below. Some was due to be done again, but I believe (I hadn't seen it for 3 or 4 years) it was in better condition than a lot of other wooden narrow boats at the time.

 

Tim