New build advise

[MtB]

Surely if he's an undischarged bankrupt, working for somebody else is his only option?

 

Do we know he is an undischarged bankrupt for a fact?

 

If his last 'business failure' was him trading as a sole trader then yes he is highly likely to be bankrupt, but one can be discharged in a shockingly shock period of time now, something like 12 months IIRC. If still undischarged he is barred from acting as a Ltd Co director but still there is nothing is stopping him from trading on his own account, but I believe he would be commiting an offence if he took deposits, payments on account etc.

 

If his last failure was a Ltd Co then he has probably escaped unscathed personally, and could easily be trading again as a new Ltd Co or on his own account as a self employed person.

 

Best case scenario would be that AM has started working now as an employee of JW. This would mean JW is entering into the contract even though AM is doing the work.

 

MtB

[TTtrad]

This thread has just confirmed why I don't bother with this forum or take much notice of members opinions, the thread has now gone off at a tangent like most do and has turned into an Anthony "M" witch hunt. Is there anyone on this forum that knows what really happened and his current business situation? I doubt it. So the guy is a better cabinet maker then he is an accountant, I'm sure there's alot worse out there on the canals, boaters included.

[John Holden]

Do we know he is an undischarged bankrupt for a fact?

 

If his last 'business failure' was him trading as a sole trader then yes he is highly likely to be bankrupt, but one can be discharged in a shockingly shock period of time now, something like 12 months IIRC. If still undischarged he is barred from acting as a Ltd Co director but still there is nothing is stopping him from trading on his own account, but I believe he would be commiting an offence if he took deposits, payments on account etc.

 

If his last failure was a Ltd Co then he has probably escaped unscathed personally, and could easily be trading again as a new Ltd Co or on his own account as a self employed person.

 

Best case scenario would be that AM has started working now as an employee of JW. This would mean JW is entering into the contract even though AM is doing the work.

 

MtB

 

That's the problem, we don't know anything for a fact - accept he's a truly bad beggar and should never be trusted with anything ever again! <sarcasm>

[Fred_Smith]

To go back to gatesfrome's original request for comment.

 

You have found one of the best quality and biggest hull builders, they only ask £500 up front so there is virtually no risk. At that point you have a shell complete, handed over and paid for in full that you own. I would insure it at that point. That leaves a fitter, and I think that AM has a good reputation as a fitter but a poor historical one as a business man. Having said that should he be chosen to fit the boat as long as a stage payment is agreed and contract drawn up with ownership of the part fitted boat retained by the owner at all times and money handed over only after visiting the boat to be happy that the work has been carried out then I think risk is minimised should AM have a problem in finishing it. Worst case AM does not finish the boat but you have only paid for what has been completed you then have to take the boat to another fitter for completion. Not desirable I know but there should not be a loss of money only the inconvenience and worry and some additional cost to move the boat. You could consider using a surveyor to project manage the fit out as he will verify that each stage has been completed before any more money is handed over, this will add some cost of course.

[romarni123]

Has Anthony M ltd always been in sheffield?? well for the last 30 years.

[Maffi]

I wish I could find the link that poor unfortunate couple that had their boat in build vandalised in build by a previously reputable boat builder. I think they were from Aus or NZ. Someone will remember.

 

 

http://www.narrowboat-waiouru.co.uk/

 

 

Read back to 2010

[bargemast]

http://www.narrowboat-waiouru.co.uk/

 

 

Read back to 2010

 

 

The problems these poor people had to go through with the missery on their boat were already listed in post #58

 

And another boat by the same builder (this time not A.M.) in post #59

 

Peter.

Edited December 26, 2012 by bargemast

[ditchcrawler]

Interesting reading

https://www.duedil.com/director/915719913/anthony-michael-walker

[bargemast]

Interesting reading

https://www.duedil.com/director/915719913/anthony-michael-walker

 

 

Yes, that is interesting reading, and a very good name between the businesses too : "LOST CAUSE LIMITED"

 

Peter.

[alan_fincher]

This thread has just confirmed why I don't bother with this forum or take much notice of members opinions, the thread has now gone off at a tangent like most do and has turned into an Anthony "M" witch hunt. Is there anyone on this forum that knows what really happened and his current business situation? I doubt it.

It is what has happened in the past that worries me, and I'd not like to see it happen again.

 

Anyone who is interested can of course find out a lot just by use of Google.

 

Typical example here, but I would urge people to seek out all such examples if even vaguely thinking of getting involved.

 

From: "John Wood" <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date: 24 Sep 2005 12:41:26 -0700

 

As it is now in the public domain, I would like everyone to know that

Anthony M Boatbuilder, went bankrupt on the 22nd of September.

This is a disaster for all concerned. His customers have paid vast

amounts for work that has never been done on their boats.

I have lost £25700, and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

Bankruptcy seems so unfair. As their are very few assets I do not think

that anyone will get much of their money back. As a sole trader, their

is nothing to stop Anthony M starting up again, and doing the same

thing all over again.

I reported the matter to the police, but they were not interested,

saying that it is a civil matter. My solicitor says that it is very

difficult to prove anything in these type of cases.

So I could rob a post office for a small amount and get sent to prison,

or I could start a boatbuilding business, fleece my customers for

hundreds of thousands of pounds and get away with it.

 

To say I am bitter is an understatement.

 

From: Brian Dominic <nbrumpus@xxxxxxxxxxx>

Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:13:02 +0100

 

Having been through the same thing a few years ago, I'm surprised you

are only bitter. I was heartbroken (and it was a lot less money, in my

case, than many other people).

 

My sympathies are with you.

 

Brian L Dominic

 

From: "John Wood" <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date: 26 Sep 2005 06:03:29 -0700

 

Yes, the contract states that the boat is the property of the purchaser

as the boat prgresses. However in this case, the amount of work done on

the 5 boats in his yard did not equate to the amount paid by the

purchaser. Without going into too much detail, some people had paid

£71000 in 3 stages, only to find that all they had, was a shell with

an engine in it.

 

I paid £25700, only to find that Anthony M had not paid the shell

builder for my hull. So the hull builder has a contract with the

boatbuilder. The boatbuilder has a contract with me that says Quote "

The boat and/or all materials and equipment purchased or appropriated

from time to time by the builder specifically for its

construction(whether in their premises, upon the water or elsewhere)

shall become the property of the purchaser upon the payment of the

first stage payment." ( end of quote) I take this to mean that the

shell belongs to me. However the hull builder thinks differently. The

matter is now in the hands of my solicitor, who is consulting with a

Barristor on the matter.

And to think, only a few weeks ago, my wife was worried about the

colour of the tiles, in the boats bathroom.

Meanwhile although he is bankrupt, Anthony M is still driving round in

a 4.2 litre Jaguar Coupe. How is this possible. I have to drive round

in a white van.

The worrying thing is, that when I spoke to Anthony M last friday, he

told me that so long as he is not a director, he could start up boat

building again tommorrow.

 

Something must be done to stop this happening ever again.

 

John

 

From: "Chris Bennett" <pyxis-963@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 07:31:00 +0000 (UTC)

 

Thank you John for putting in words what all of us who were conned by this

man feel

I only hope that he never manages to be involved with taking money from

honest people ever again

Chris Bennett

Also fleeced by Tony Walker ( Anthony M)

 

From: Hugh Allen <hugh@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:12:40 +0100

 

You have my heartfelt sympathy. I think I might acquire murderous

tendencies if it happened to me.

 

I think it should be illegal to ask for money in advance for any

large purchase. A contract similar to a house purchase should be the

method of buying a boat. The purchaser should pay a small deposit as

a token of intent and pay the balance on completion to his/her

satisfaction. This would mean that anyone starting up as a boat

builder would have to borrow the money for materials, wages etc from a

bank. Most banks would check thoroughly the competence of the

borrower, insist on a business plan and keep a check on their

finances.

 

Any person who starts another business after proving themselves to be

at best incompetent and at worst fraudulent by becoming bankrupt

should be subject to crimminal prosecution. It should be illegal for

banks etc to lend to anyone who has been bankrupted.

 

There isn't much that you can do. He probably has his house etc in

his wife's name. The tax man and the banks will get first bite of any

cherry that is left. It might make you feel a bit better to publicise

your plight and his name as widely as possible amongst the boating

community.

 

I'm not sure if this already exists but there is prodbaly a case for

the formation an association of boat builders which is funded by the

members and which can arbitrate disputes and compensate unfortunate

people in your situation much as ABTA does for holidaymakers.

 

"Bob Wood" <bobwood@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:29:55 GMT

 

Doesn't the British Marine Federation have a standard contract which allows

for staged payments and for the purchaser to become the legal owner of

'stages' as the boat progresses?

 

"Chris Bennett" <pyxis-963@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:29:24 +0000 (UTC)

 

I know .....Lise and I have tried all the avenues as well John but as you

said..rob a bank you go inside..rip off customers and you are allowed to do

it over and over again....

Chris Bennett

[PaddingtonBear]

The shell builders mentioned are good second division narrowboat shell builders although I don't know anything of their skills regarding building a one off Cat B/C hybrid. This would require a considerable design capacity.

It is alleged that William Piper LTD took loads of substantial deposits on the back of their success at Crick and then disappeared abroad pdq with it all.

The OP is obviously a time waster and a fool. He might of course be Anthony M seeing how the land lies :=}}

Edited December 26, 2012 by PaddingtonBear

[John Holden]

Thanks Alan, I'll now stop playing devils advocate.

[Gatesofrome]

What is an OP? I have seen it on here a number of times but have not got used to the acronyms used yet. I hope you do not think I am AM, if the above refers to me, I am defiantly not a man :-)

[nb Innisfree]

I would guess that for every potential customer that has a healthy pessimistic streak and isn't taken in by, maybe well intentioned, promises and instead looks around and compares what they see and find with what they are told there must be another who doesn't notice that the builder/fitter outer seems to be saying yes to every question and promising the world. Blinded by their dreams, lambs to the slaughter I'm afraid.

 

Unfortunately it's the lambs that keep iffy businesses limping along, the lure of easy money on offer by trusting customers proves too tempting for over optimistic builders not to promise everything.

[boathunter]

OP = original post(er)

 

As a person with zero experience in boat building, but having followed the links on this thread, you'd have to be insane to get involved with this chap. If something goes go wrong, he clearly views his customers as of no account whatsoever/a nuisance. It follows that he probably views them like that when things are going ok (for him) too. Even if he were the best cabinet maker in all England I wouldn't.

[Gatesofrome]

Do we know he is an undischarged bankrupt for a fact?

 

If his last 'business failure' was him trading as a sole trader then yes he is highly likely to be bankrupt, but one can be discharged in a shockingly shock period of time now, something like 12 months IIRC. If still undischarged he is barred from acting as a Ltd Co director but still there is nothing is stopping him from trading on his own account, but I believe he would be commiting an offence if he took deposits, payments on account etc.

 

If his last failure was a Ltd Co then he has probably escaped unscathed personally, and could easily be trading again as a new Ltd Co or on his own account as a self employed person.

 

Best case scenario would be that AM has started working now as an employee of JW. This would mean JW is entering into the contract even though AM is doing the work.

 

MtB

Anthony M limited is the web site for the fitter, so he is trading in his name as a LTD company, that is where I found his e mail address.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Gatesofrome

[Gatesofrome]

The shell builders mentioned are good second division narrowboat shell builders although I don't know anything of their skills regarding building a one off Cat B/C hybrid. This would require a considerable design capacity.

It is alleged that William Piper LTD took loads of substantial deposits on the back of their success at Crick and then disappeared abroad pdq with it all.

The OP is obviously a time waster and a fool. He might of course be Anthony M seeing how the land lies :=}}

Have piper boats gone? We want there and nearly ordered a boat of them after Crick, they had lots of boats going out the workshop, we were ther when they were loading a such barge in a pink colour, I can not believe that a big company like that ran of with all the money. Who do you trust to build a boat, what a mine field. The boat builders need to get there act together with legal restrictions, any one elce would get done for fraud. Defiantly I am not Anthony M and not a fool, perhaps you should

Ok at all the info and see that I have come on here befor getting into anything to get some advise if find your comment rude, but been told by others to be thick skinned so I am trying to be, if not only to get some good advise, which I have had from some people. Also I am female shows just how well you have read the thred

 

OP = original post(er)

 

As a person with zero experience in boat building, but having followed the links on this thread, you'd have to be insane to get involved with this chap. If something goes go wrong, he clearly views his customers as of no account whatsoever/a nuisance. It follows that he probably views them like that when things are going ok (for him) too. Even if he were the best cabinet maker in all England I wouldn't.

Thank you for clarifying the OP for me. I know that now, but did not know who I was dealing with till I found out from the Internet, I am getting really fed up telling people this 4 days ago I found out who he was.

 

I have had some good and polite advise on here from a number of people, I just wanted to say that. Some people seem to feel they need to resort to name calling ie insane, fool, time waister. Just to make it CLEAR I DID NOT KNOW WHO THE FITTER WAS TILL 4 DAYS AGO I hoped to find out more on here and have. If you want to call people names do not do it at my expense THANK YOU

Edited December 26, 2012 by Gatesofrome

[dor]

I would have thought there is enough information in this thread and those linked to to tell anyone that AM, and anyone he is associated with, is an area to avoid.The guy has apparently conned a lot of people. If I was still in business I would not want to be associated with him. Unless I had a similar cavalier attitude towards my customers and suppliers.

There are plenty of other builders around with far better reputations. Just leave these people alone. Unless of course you have been taken in by them.

The OP has said that A M has been negotiating with them which puts the other builders in a poor light if they are saying they are independent.

To the OP - have you not had enough alarm bells ringing?

[arbutus]

A quick point.

 

Don't confuse the two boat builders William Piper and Piper boats. I suspect the OP actually visited Piper boats which has been around for some time. http://www.piperboats.com/

[Ally]

http://www.narrowboat-waiouru.co.uk/

 

 

Read back to 2010

This link refers to a terrible example of a boat builder, or fitter rather. However, I am uncomfortable that this is put up to the OP as an example. I do understand the intention, but we are specifically concerned with AM here, and the thread has become a cautionary one against boat builders generally. There are indeed, sadly, many poor business examples in this line of work, however, there are also reputable builders, let us not forget. Few if any of us, understand the full reasons that people go under. Sometimes they are horribly at fault, sometimes they just run out of work, sometimes it is somewhere between the two.

we are all too quick to judge sometimes, without all the facts. Don't get me wrong, I know the linked example was a nightmare, no excuses, but there are often 2, or more sides to every story. Some builders/fitters are good. Some are average, some are dreadful...same as anything.

[Biggles]

This link refers to a terrible example of a boat builder, or fitter rather. However, I am uncomfortable that this is put up to the OP as an example. I do understand the intention, but we are specifically concerned with AM here, and the thread has become a cautionary one against boat builders generally. There are indeed, sadly, many poor business examples in this line of work, however, there are also reputable builders, let us not forget. Few if any of us, understand the full reasons that people go under. Sometimes they are horribly at fault, sometimes they just run out of work, sometimes it is somewhere between the two.

we are all too quick to judge sometimes, without all the facts. Don't get me wrong, I know the linked example was a nightmare, no excuses, but there are often 2, or more sides to every story. Some builders/fitters are good. Some are average, some are dreadful...same as anything.

 

 

There is one major reason I'd say 99% why businesses go under. LACK OF MONEY. The other 1% is convenience.

 

As a manufacturer of specialist trailers for over 20 years I had sufficient business liquidity to build and deliver on time my products on a 10% deposit.

 

I know of many business's in my business life that had full order books but had simply run out of money and bank support to continue trading. I would often buy the order book and deliver the goods to to customer on a new contract.

 

In business cash flow is king. Without it nothing works no matter how good a technician/owner is.

[Gatesofrome]

A quick point.

 

Don't confuse the two boat builders William Piper and Piper boats. I suspect the OP actually visited Piper boats which has been around for some time. http://www.piperboats.com/

 

Thank for letting me know I did look up on the Internet and found out too. We did go to piper boats not William piper, I thought is was wrong

[Tony Brooks]

This link refers to a terrible example of a boat builder, or fitter rather. However, I am uncomfortable that this is put up to the OP as an example. I do understand the intention, but we are specifically concerned with AM here, and the thread has become a cautionary one against boat builders generally. There are indeed, sadly, many poor business examples in this line of work, however, there are also reputable builders, let us not forget. Few if any of us, understand the full reasons that people go under. Sometimes they are horribly at fault, sometimes they just run out of work, sometimes it is somewhere between the two.

we are all too quick to judge sometimes, without all the facts. Don't get me wrong, I know the linked example was a nightmare, no excuses, but there are often 2, or more sides to every story. Some builders/fitters are good. Some are average, some are dreadful...same as anything.

 

 

I fear that until the inland boat building/fitting industry can get its house in order then anyone without CONSIDERABLE and detailed knowledge of the industry would be best advised to assume the worst. How can an ordinary person get accurate financial information on a company - especially if they are a sole trader or partnership? Don't say company's house because all too often the accounts available there are either out of date or, shall we say, somewhat optimistic.

 

I even have doubts as to exactly how effective the BMA/CBA would be in a dispute with a builder being a subscription based trade association.

 

Because of the sums involved it is very much caveat emptor but without detailed trade knowledge (e.g. over due accounts from trade suppliers etc. and "the grape vine") the best ordinary people can do is to buy secondhand and if they must have a new boat follow the advice I gave early in this thread. The bottom line is that the public can not trust the trade as a whole so it is about time the trade did more to protect them from the dodgy operators. It is clear that consumer protection legislation can not because of what looks to me like a negligent lack of enforcement.

 

When did you last hear about a successful prosecution for the use of logos on stationary and websites when not members?

 

I am very comfortable with problems being pointed out to potential purchasers.

[Gatesofrome]

This link refers to a terrible example of a boat builder, or fitter rather. However, I am uncomfortable that this is put up to the OP as an example. I do understand the intention, but we are specifically concerned with AM here, and the thread has become a cautionary one against boat builders generally. There are indeed, sadly, many poor business examples in this line of work, however, there are also reputable builders, let us not forget. Few if any of us, understand the full reasons that people go under. Sometimes they are horribly at fault, sometimes they just run out of work, sometimes it is somewhere between the two.

we are all too quick to judge sometimes, without all the facts. Don't get me wrong, I know the linked example was a nightmare, no excuses, but there are often 2, or more sides to every story. Some builders/fitters are good. Some are average, some are dreadful...same as anything.

Thank you for a balanced view piont and no name calling. Out of all of this between the lines at least I have some good ideas on how to self gard my self which is all I wanted to find out in the first place.

 

I fear that until the inland boat building/fitting industry can get its house in order then anyone without CONSIDERABLE and detailed knowledge of the industry would be best advised to assume the worst. How can an ordinary person get accurate financial information on a company - especially if they are a sole trader or partnership? Don't say company's house because all too often the accounts available there are either out of date or, shall we say, somewhat optimistic.

 

I even have doubts as to exactly how effective the BMA/CBA would be in a dispute with a builder being a subscription based trade association.

 

Because of the sums involved it is very much caveat emptor but without detailed trade knowledge (e.g. over due accounts from trade suppliers etc. and "the grape vine") the best ordinary people can do is to buy secondhand and if they must have a new boat follow the advice I gave early in this thread. The bottom line is that the public can not trust the trade as a whole so it is about time the trade did more to protect them from the dodgy operators. It is clear that consumer protection legislation can not because of what looks to me like a negligent lack of enforcement.

 

When did you last hear about a successful prosecution for the use of logos on stationary and websites when not members?

 

I am very comfortable with problems being pointed out to potential purchasers.

Well said, so why can't the boat building industry work like when you buy a house, after all given the costs you could buy a house for that kind of money and lots buy to live aboard. So why has this not been done befor? Even second hand boats start out as a new boat so the problem stars some where.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Gatesofrome

[BruceinSanity]

Thank you for a balanced view piont and no name calling. Out of all of this between the lines at least I have some good ideas on how to self gard my self which is all I wanted to find out in the first place.

 

 

Well said, so why can't the boat building industry work like when you buy a house, after all given the costs you could buy a house for that kind of money and lots buy to live aboard. So why has this not been done befor? Even second hand boats start out as a new boat so the problem stars some where.

 

Looks like you've got the message re AM!

 

Can you give us an idea of budget and timescale? There are plenty of decent boat builders out there fitting Wilson/Tyler shells, and I suspect build slots are pretty plentiful at the moment because of the downturn, so that a builder where you'd normally have to wait 18 months or two years to see your start might have a slot for next year.

 

OTOH, if you've got less than say £75k to spend, you'd certainly get a better boat second hand unless you've got really one off requirements.