Bow Thrusters

[ellerslie1978]

I think its very amusing what 'boaters' think regarding bow thrusters whilst I would agree they are not essential I would also say they are a very useful bit of kit specially for the boat above the 60'. Take reversing for example with bow thrusters you can confidently reverse pretty much as far as you wish with bow thrusters and through tight gaps, something near on impossible without, dealing with wind makes a world of difference. Negotiating tight bridges on bends... in this situation why would you not want to turn from the front? My bow is pretty much scratch free thanks to bow thruster... and when you spend alot of money on a new boat scratches can prove emotion so why not help minimise them? Only my take on the subject though!

[Timleech]

I think its very amusing what 'boaters' think regarding bow thrusters whilst I would agree they are not essential I would also say they are a very useful bit of kit specially for the boat above the 60'. Take reversing for example with bow thrusters you can confidently reverse pretty much as far as you wish with bow thrusters and through tight gaps, something near on impossible without, dealing with wind makes a world of difference. Negotiating tight bridges on bends... in this situation why would you not want to turn from the front? My bow is pretty much scratch free thanks to bow thruster... and when you spend alot of money on a new boat scratches can prove emotion so why not help minimise them? Only my take on the subject though!

 

I can see that bow thrusters could be very useful for those who keep their boat in a marina with awkward access, reversing certainly could make life easier, but negotiating tight bridges on bends? Shouldn't be needed.

 

Tim

 

BTW Leeds & Liverpool boats, and Keels have their rudders behind the boats too, of course they're not narrowboats.

 

Peter.

 

I think that Keels and Short Boats never really changed the basic design from when they were built as horse- or sailing or dumb craft. They just cut the stern post away a bit and fitted a shaft and prop, to motorise existing boats, and continued to make new motor boats the same way.

 

Tim

[blackrose]

I'll add a picture of a well travelled narrowboat, she's probably one of the most if not THE most travelled, that has her rudder just like that too.

 

 

 

The most well travelled? Is that the boat that's moored near Watford below Cassio lock in the Bridgewater Basin? Everytime I've ever been past it was always there. It hardly ever seemed to move.

Edited October 10, 2013 by blackrose

[FadeToScarlet]

I think its very amusing what 'boaters' think regarding bow thrusters whilst I would agree they are not essential I would also say they are a very useful bit of kit specially for the boat above the 60'. Take reversing for example with bow thrusters you can confidently reverse pretty much as far as you wish with bow thrusters and through tight gaps, something near on impossible without, dealing with wind makes a world of difference. Negotiating tight bridges on bends... in this situation why would you not want to turn from the front? My bow is pretty much scratch free thanks to bow thruster... and when you spend alot of money on a new boat scratches can prove emotion so why not help minimise them? Only my take on the subject though!

The front of the boat does turn, you just have to allow the back to pivot too.

 

It's also possible to reverse through tight gaps without a bow thruster, people do it every year at the Braunston show,,and others.

[IanM]

The most well travelled? Is that the boat that's moored near Watford below Cassio lock in the Bridgewater Basin? Everytime I've ever been past it was always there. It hardly ever seemed to move.

It's been around a very long time as a pleasure boat

[Tam & Di]

I know that BT's stir up quite a heated debate, especially by those against them. I just wonder, if they were available at the height of the working boat era, if crews had the option to have one fitted, I expect most, if not all, would have one.

 

 

There would be little point on most UK canal working craft. On a motor vessel the fore end is virtually out of the water when empty, so a transverse thruster would be out of the water. There are other designs with effectively a revolving circular vaned disc in the bottom that can rotate through 360 degrees, but they are quite bulky internally and would be very liable to damage on shallow canals. UK canal craft also have quite small payloads and the additional weight of the thruster and its power source would be a significant economic factor.

 

Some French peniches still have their bow rudder - a blade similar to a drop keel that can be lowered and operated with a tiller bar on the fore deck. They do sometimes use them when reversing empty, but UK craft don't generally have the sort of space to allow for that.

 

A thruster would be deep enough in the water when you're loaded, but a loaded boat steers much more easily anyway. Even if it was feasible to fit one I can't think of hardly any occasion when I wished I had one.

 

Tam

Edited October 11, 2013 by Tam & Di

[Pluto]

I know that BT's stir up quite a heated debate, especially by those against them. I just wonder, if they were available at the height of the working boat era, if crews had the option to have one fitted, I expect most, if not all, would have one.

I used to out with a German couple on their 1200 ton 80 metre long barge, and I think they would have been insulted if you suggested they needed a bow thruster.

[howardang]

I used to out with a German couple on their 1200 ton 80 metre long barge, and I think they would have been insulted if you suggested they needed a bow thruster.

Why would they regard it as an insult? It's a tool like any other, and although I don't know them personally, I am sure that there would be times when they would welcome one.

 

Howard

[bargemast]

I used to out with a German couple on their 1200 ton 80 metre long barge, and I think they would have been insulted if you suggested they needed a bow thruster.

 

I'm terribly sorry, but I really can't see why they would feel to be insulted by the suggestion of a bowwthruster, I also think that if they still haven't got one they will be one of the very few bigger size barges (although by modern standards an 80m is too small) that aren't equipped with one.

 

It's also depending on where they operate, as if they would have to load at Rotterdam Europort which is a huge open an very windy area, it's impossible to get out of a series of breasted up barges to get to the loading place, until the 80s they used to have tugboats to help you with the manoeuvring to get to your loading place without doing damage to your and other barges, but since they are (almost) all equipped with BTs there aren't any of these tugs left.

 

I never had a BT in my 38m barges, and haven't done any damage, but I would have been very happy if I had one, as it would have made manoeuvring empty at slow speed far more relaxed, with the knowledge that in case I needed help I only would have to push a button to start my possible savier.

 

A bow-rudder is better than nothing, but not very useful at very slow speed, I used mine as a sort of undeep skeg or keel that I lowered when empty with only about 5 to 10 cm left in it's casing to stay straight, and help with the bows not being blow away too easily.

 

Peter.

[Dharl]

Thanks, that's all I needed to hear. I did google them too. And as I thought they're for a sideways motion when pretty much stationary.

I have watched the tug boats in Falmouth bay piloting ships. I think they have several that turn 360 degrees pushing and pulling in what ever direction they need. Fascinating to watch

But I wondered how they applied to a narrow boat.

I'm doing rivers heading up stream for the first time and I have to be pretty quick tying the bow. So it just got me wondering

 

Must admit that I use bow thruster a lot.....but that is on my day job with a 15,000 dwt tanker!

 

A lot of Harbour Tugs use a Voith Schneider Propeller, which has a circular plate, rotating around a vertical axis, a circular array of vertical blades protrude out of the bottom of the ship. Each blade can rotate itself around a vertical axis. The internal gear changes the angle of attack of the blades in sync with the rotation of the plate, so that each blade can provide thrust in any direction, very similar to the collective pitch control and cyclic in a helicopter. (help on the description from Wiki! )

[ditchcrawler]

How come we dont have these discussions about weed hatches. The old working boats didn't have them and they managed OK.

[David Mack]

How come we dont have these discussions about weed hatches. The old working boats didn't have them and they managed OK.

And we still haven't and still do!

[blackrose]

It's been around a very long time as a pleasure boat

 

But a lot of old working boats have been around a very long time too.

Even if it was feasible to fit one I can't think of hardly any ocassion when I wished I had one.

 

On the other hand, I can think of lots of occasions when I'm glad I had one.

I used to out with a German couple on their 1200 ton 80 metre long barge, and I think they would have been insulted if you suggested they needed a bow thruster.

 

Nobody on this thread has suggested that anyone "needs" a BT.

How come we dont have these discussions about weed hatches. The old working boats didn't have them and they managed OK.

 

Good point. Imagine that... "If you've got a weed hatch you're not a proper boater!"

Edited October 11, 2013 by blackrose

[Guest]

When we go down in short locks sometimes it can be hard for Jan to get the bow past the gate so I can open it.

 

She always manages it though. This is the only situation we have encountered that would make a bow thruster remotely useful.

 

Essential??? Well with a bit of a 'jiggle' she's always managed so no, not essential.

[Tacet]

Unnecessary vehicle technology:

 

Hydraulic brakes,,disc brakes, pnuematic tyres, auto gearboxes, power steering, rack& pinion steering, heaters, starter motors, electric windows, windscreens (and washers), indicators, superchargers, turbo chargers, sat navs, electronic ignition, seat belts, air bags, coil spring, independent suspension, rev counters, water pumps, front wheel drive,front/rear screen heaters, air con. roofs, rear view mirrors,

 

To name but a few.

With the exception of pneumatic tyres, our family car (when I was a kid in the '60's) lacked all of the above - and we were happy..... It was a three wheeled Morgan.

[ditchcrawler]

 

There would be little point on most UK canal working craft. On a motor vessel the fore end is virtually out of the water when empty, so a transverse thruster would be out of the water. There are other designs with effectively a revolving circular vaned disc in the bottom that can rotate through 360 degrees, but they are quite bulky internally and would be very liable to damage on shallow canals. UK canal craft also have quite small payloads and the additional weight of the thruster and its power source would be a significant economic factor.

 

Some French peniches still have their bow rudder - a blade similar to a drop keel that can be lowered and operated with a tiller bar on the fore deck. They do sometimes use them when reversing empty, but UK craft don't generally have the sort of space to allow for that.

 

A thruster would be deep enough in the water when you're loaded, but a loaded boat steers much more easily anyway. Even if it was feasible to fit one I can't think of hardly any occasion when I wished I had one.

 

Tam

Hydraulic ones are OK

[RLWP]

With the exception of pneumatic tyres, our family car (when I was a kid in the '60's) lacked all of the above - and we were happy..... It was a three wheeled Morgan.

 

Ahh, I see where your confusion lies - I don't think Morgan have ever built what most rational people would recognise as a motor car

 

Richard

[Tam & Di]

Hydraulic ones are OK

 

Certainly they would be lighter, though you'd still have the hydraulic pipework and electric controls to accommodate. But I was specifically answering the point that working boats in the UK would have fitted them if they were then available, and as the fore end is almost out of the water on an empty narrowboat that creates a problem. If the hydraulics were powered by the main engine you'd have to run the pipework through the cargo space in some manner and I don't see how you could do that in a way to avoid damage when you're loading and unloading.

When empty we ran with water in the backend to get the blades sufficiently into the water to avoid cavitation. To get the bow down as well would have involved a large ballast tank in the fore end and the economics of the job meant you could not afford to lose that much space or add that much weight, and also increase the turn-round time to fill and empty the ballast.

Added to that I find it difficult to think of any particular instance where I needed a thruster. Had we had one it would doubtless have been used on occasion out of laziness, but that would not have justified the expense. Modern pleasure boats and leisure boating are a different beast, as exemplified by Blackrose’s statement that he finds his thruster very useful.

 

Tam

[FadeToScarlet]

There's also the point that boating today has different challenges that weren't faced in the old days. I suppose the first of these would be lock landing stages- the majority of people today use them, but they're a recent invention, I think, with working boaters either going straight into a lock, set by a lockwheeler who got off at a previous bridgehole or cycled ahead, or Ypossibly in the lock mouth.

 

You've also got things like people painting their "top plank" above the gunwale with coach enamel, not sensible blacking, and bemoaning any contact.

 

There's also a general lower level of competence in boat handling, and less knowledge of old tricks and ideas, like running a line off the foreend stud to the bollard under the bridge at Sutton Stop (Hawkesbury), to ease the foreend around.

 

I might have an ex working boat, but I'm in no way as competent as someone who steered full length boats, loaded and unloaded, down the cut from the age of 7.

[bargemast]

Hi Mike (Blackrose),

 

I haven't seen "Elizabeth" anywhere in the UK, apart from when I took some photographs of her at the IWA festival at Burton on Trent.

She may be tied up at the moment, but has done lots of travelling on the European canals of which here a short story:

http://hnbc.org.uk/oldsite/publication/nl20021NBeurope.pdf

 

And here is some of her History, I think that she's a very interesting and well travelled boat :

 

History

ELIZABETH is a converted narrow boat with an iron hull believed to be from the 1860s which was altered by Warrens Shipyard, New Holland, in 1936. Her British Waterways number was 70540. She has a mahogany cabin and pitch pine decks. Her engine is a Gardner 2LW, with 28 horsepower and two cylinders, Moremade in 1963.

ELIZABETH started life as a nameless single-ended horse drawn cargo vessel on the Birmingham canal navigations. Her hull was initially made entirely from riveted iron, but some later work used riveted and welded steel. Her final job on the Birmingham canal was carrying coal from Nechells Gas Works to Slatney depot for Fellow Morton & Clayton’s long distance steam powered narrow boats.

In 1928, she was sold out of service along with other Fellows, Morton & Clayton boats. They were bought by Robert Teal of Newark who used them for gravel carrying on the Kelham cut until it was deep enough to take larger boats such as the Trent Barges.

In the early 1930s, she finished her commercial career and was taken to Warrens Shipyard at New Holland, where she was shortened from 70 feet to 61 feet 9 inches. The original horseboat stern was removed and replaced with a riveted steel barge stern. She was totally rebuilt with steel chines and converted for pleasure use. The cabin conversion used two inch mahogany planking for the sides, with three inch pitch pine caulked decks. Some of the mahogany has since been replaced with iroko. The original conversion had an amidships timber mast for yacht rigging. She had a nine horsepower twin cylinder Thornycroft 'handy-billy' auxiliary engine, located under a wooden box in the middle of the open stern cockpit.

In 1938, ELIZABETH had an extensive docking in Lincoln when the barge stern was modified underwater to a more conventional narrow boat counter and a more powerful engine was installed - a Highlander petrol paraffin motor.

ELIZABETH was bought as a run down houseboat by the present owners in 1966 and used as their first home. The saloon and living quarters have been kept to a 1930s style, with many features not normally found on canal craft - such as two central heating systems, one running off waste engine heat and both designed in 1936.

Peter.