Cabin sides - fully vertical?

[Danny1234]

Hello there

 

I have a 'design' for a would be wide beam canal boat (currently 60' x 12'6", though it might be 12')

Am considering having the cabin sides totally straight, so there would be no incline (tumblehome)

The main concerns were to gain a bit of cabin space, but perhaps as important (maybe more so), was to then end up with a nice 'clean', straight vertical internal lining

I did have the gunwales at 100 (say 4"), the inside face of the lining/wall would then be 200mm off from the hull sides and 100mm away from the cabin sides.

Quick couple of questions then, ....

I'm aware that sloping cabin sides should generally speaking be structurally a slightly better solution for carry the roof weight downwards. Though at this scale/weight/dims, as the incline is actually quite slight, then having straight sides shouldn't really become a problem, this is something that can be built/fabricated

Also, the gunwales will be quite high, around 1500 or so (from the floor/base plate), so the cabin sides would only be about 900mm, maximum 1000

Main concerns are, ...

- looks/taste/traditions: straight sides are not really the 'done thing', using an off the top of your head/gut reaction/instinct kind of approach (if that's possible???) I was wondering how much people would be put off by a boat having straight sides, ...... would you automatically think/react, ..... 'now way' and that automatically rule out owning/buying such a boat (without really considering the rest of the boat). Or would it be, ..'that isn't really right, ..... it's of some concern' but it wouldn't totally rule it out for you if the rest of the boat/features were 'right for your circumstances/situation'.

- safety/access: I've been told (by reliable sources, ... a couple of the reputable boat builders, and some other people who have done a fair amount of yachting) that the incline/tumblehome does allow people to walk along the boat easier, as it reduces the 'need' to lean outwards. I'm wondering how much of this is due to a 'visual' and psychological effect as much as the actual physical space/gap gained at roof level by having the sides sloping in? I must admit I'm on the thin/nimble side (I prefer the term 'trim' to 'skinny')and still only in my early-mid 40s, I'm figuring (for now), that a gunwale width of 120mm and cabin sides of around only 900mm shouldn't really present too much of an obstacle to moving along the boat, for myself and my family and friends (as they are at this point in time!). Do people feel that 120mm (very nearly 5") would be sufficient, and reduce somewhat the need for sloping/inclined cabin sides? I'm considering going up to 150mm for the gunwale width, but would prefer not to at this point. I guess the position/style of the handrail along the roof may have some impact or influence on the overall effect.

I gather there are also issues about the roof width/corners, but I'm hoping to avoid/put that topic off at this point (though suspect that will somehow creep in), and just get some response/feedback on the looks/aesthetics and the potential safety/access along the sides of the boat, before going in to any impacts and issues relevant to the roof height/scrapping bridges/denting corners and so on.

OK, that's the situation at the moment, ...

 

Regards

Danny

[magpie patrick]

Others will know more than me, but it sounds like you are building a barge rather than a narrow boat. I think I'm right in saying that tumblehome is a feature of narrow boats because they are approaching the practical size limit for the navigations they are using. When I used to own a narrow boat I certainly encountered bridges where a seven foot hull fitted through but a cabin without tumble home would not have done so. On one or two, the corner inevitably caught anyway. The only way to have managed without tumble home would have been to have a very narrow cabin

 

That said, the few wide-beam narrow boat style boats I've seen with no tumble home look boxy, probably because the eye expects to see it (I'm thinking in particular of one or two restaurant boats I've seen).

 

Other styles of boat do not have tumble home, Dutch barges for example, another characteristic of these is that most of the space is below the gunnel, and reading your figures 60% of the internal height will be below the gunnel? I'm not sure how this compares with a typical modern narrow boat, or even a replica Dutch barge. Note though that barges tend to have wider gunnels

 

Depends where you are going to use the boat, and what look you are trying to achieve: if you are not going for a narrow boat look, and are not going up the Grand Union, you can probably make it work

[boots]

Just thought, will the cabin sides be tall enough to hold on to?

[luctor et emergo]

I think that most widebeams seem to have vertical sides anyway. Their inability to cruise the narrow canals means that narrow arched bridges are not really a problem.

[bottle]

See post # 2.

[Chertsey]

Pretty sure Ledgard Bridge for one used to build both wide and abd barge style narrow boats with straight sides. If you're only using it on 'real' wide waterways then I should think the issues are largely aesthetic. NB style wide boats are so ugly anyway you've nothing to loose, but hopefully your design will be more barge like and pleasing to the eye. Boats where verticle cabin sides are traditional do tend to have wider gunnels/side decks though as far as I can recall seeing, so overcoming the walking around issue.

[David Schweizer]

If you are planning to use your boat as a house boat and not move very much (if at all) I can see no problem with a high gunwhale and vertical cabin sides, and it will give you a little more internal space. However, if you plan to cruise in your boat. I would counsell against the design you are proposing.

 

As Patrick has already suggested, the external shape of canal boats is dictated largely by the tolerances permitted by the infrastructure, and even if you are a skilled helmsman, the day will come when the wind blows you off course, and you will clout a bridge with the cabin sides, not only damaging your boat, but possibly causing seriouis damage to a bridge, Tunnels will present a similar, but more prolonged issue, trying to maintain a straight course down the centre to avoid hitting the tunnel roof.

 

The issue of external access along the gunwhales is another consideration, but some people never walk on them so it is a matter of boating style. 5"(120mm) gunwhales will go some way to overcoming the access problem if you do want to use them, but the normal practice for modern dutch barges with vertical cabin sides is to have gunwhales which are significantly wider.

 

To be honest I suspect that if you went for 4" gunwhales and a 2" tumble home, you would not notice any real difference inside a boat that is 12ft 6" wide. and being of a more convential style would make it easier to sell when you finally decide to move on.

[jelunga]

Getting it through bridges will be more of a problem with vertical sides and will restrict where you can go.

[Boat&Bikes]

Why change a design that works and looks right? Our house is old and has sloping walls in a couple of rooms and i would not change those.Its character and one of the things that attracts me to both the house and canal boats.

 

 

Ali.

[Chalky]

At some time you'll want to sell it and do something else. A boat that looks like every other boat will sell. One that looks very different will have a far more limited market and you'll have problems selling it. There have been a few boats built in the last couple of years where the owner had a great new idea, then fell out of love with the boat and decided to sell. These have sat on brokerage for years and eventually sold for a fraction of the build price, the owner loosing a lot of money.

[Mike Jordan]

I think your questions would be best answered by looking for a fabricator who currently makes such a boat. If there is one, then looking at the product will solve the problem of appearance. I think it has a good chance of looking like a floating shed, but we all like different things!

If there isn't a current maker,then any fabricator prepared to take on the work will be liable to charge a premium price for making a "one off" item.

I'm sorry to pour cold water on your ideas, particularly as I normally encourage people to fit out their own shells

( it's how I make a living) Adventures of this sort are best undertaken by the well heeled not those of us who have to consider the overall costs and the eventual sale of the boat.

Mike Jordan.

[mrsmelly]

Getting it through bridges will be more of a problem with vertical sides and will restrict where you can go.

 

A short but sensible post I agree with totaly. ALL fat narrowboats are pig ugly but the slab sided ones even more so. The small amount of space gained inside is tiny and not worth the trade off of looks and being able to use gunwhales safely and as said the problem would be bridge holes on several of the smaller widebeam canals if no tumblehome, such as the T and M and the L and L par example. At 12ft 6in you are already making some of the supposedly navigable canals unavigable with slab sided cabin as at least one member on this forum found out to his cost. For example with my 10ft 6in beam ( loads of space ) I can go through Shardlow and up past willington etc on the T and M but said forum member with 12ft 6in beam could not get through. Even if your design were more barge than fat narrowboat the bridge holes would restrict you. Tumblehome on skinny boats like narrowboats does make a noticeable difference to interior space but on widebeam doesnt matter a jot.

 

Tim

[Ally]

Well, everything that has already been said! Walking down the gunwales will always be harder...especially for anyone with hips! Whilst wide beams can use the soar...all wide locks.....you wouldn't get through the first 3 bridges by this marina heading north!! There is one here that has *nearly* straight sides at 11' wide that takes it's paint off each roof corner as it heads out. That's just going up for sale, so it will be interesting to see how it sells.......that said, I think he's low loading it down to Reading to up his chances, but I have to say, it's quite ugly to my eye. Brilliant space inside of course.

[Neil2]

There's one currently moored near us that fits your description and it is as ugly as sin. Also it usually has a window broken as they can't get it through the bridge holes without hitting the sides. To me the only design that looks right is a sort of dutch barge style with wide side decks, though this maybe defeats the object of a wide beam? That would get you the vertical cabin sides though.

[Higgs]

I've been told (by reliable sources, ... a couple of the reputable boat builders, and some other people who have done a fair amount of yachting) that the incline/tumblehome does allow people to walk along the boat easier, as it reduces the 'need' to lean outwards.

Regards

Danny

 

Your hips are wider than your feet. It would seem reasonable to give your hips more space and incline the cabinside to do this.

 

If you produce an ugly boat by taking some of the shape aspects away from the design, it may produce a little more room room inside and a dog on the outside. Less easy to sell, I would imagine.

[blackrose]

I think that most widebeams seem to have vertical sides anyway. Their inability to cruise the narrow canals means that narrow arched bridges are not really a problem.

 

Really? That's certainly not my experience. There are plently of arched bridges on the broad canals too.

 

I think my widebeam has about the same amount of tumblehome as most narrowboats.

 

 

 

Surely that's why they are called narrowboat-style widebeams?

 

Anyway, I wouldn't want vertical sides. There's plently of space in a 12ft beam boat with thin gunwhales, without having to get rid of the tumblehome.

Edited June 16, 2012 by blackrose

[bottle]

People have a natural tumblehome, shoulders wider than head.

 

The extra space, with vertical sides, say 2" (5cms) will not be noticed inside the boat.

[blackrose]

A short but sensible post I agree with totaly. ALL fat narrowboats are pig ugly but the slab sided ones even more so.

 

Could we see a pigture of your boat please?

 

If ALL fat narrowboats are pig ugly then ALL thin narrowboats must be pig ugly too.

Edited June 16, 2012 by blackrose

[Guest]

Could we see a pigture of your boat please?

 

In my opuinion if ALL fat narrowboats are pig ugly then ALL thin narrowboats must be pig ugly too.

 

Tim has a fat narrowboat...

[Biggles]

 

Ugly. I don't think so!

 

Danny its personal choice. Have what you want. I think sloping looks better but I have a Friend with straight sides and his looks fine to me too.

 

As for losing interior room, not an issue for me. So long as the passageways are wide enough at shoulder height you move through without problem.

 

As you are designing your own shell you should consider the size so you can take advantage of the VAT exemption. Sounds like your current plan is pretty near the point.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Biggles

[Guest]

Going to go against the grain now. My first NB had vertical sides and the difference it made inside was stunning. People used to ask "What beam is she?" when inside (it was 6-10). The safety inspector gave me a look of disbelief when I told him it was 6-10. I am unsure if the effect of "more room" will be the same in a wide beam.

It wasn't as pretty as a boat with tumblehome, but I sold it by word of mouth the first day I announced it was for sale..

I never caught any tunnels/bridgeholes on either wide or narrow canals (usual LL/Shroppie/Llang./Trent/Monty/Middlewitch etc.) though I have with my current boat which has sloping sides!

 

Loads of widebeams on the L&L have had vertical cabin sides over the years (and I mean WIDE beams.)

 

I've never found purpose built canal boats very pretty in general if I'm honest (but to be fair form does follow function,) but things like sloping sides can make them a bit more palatable.

 

Don't wish to offend anyone, just my take on it.

[blackrose]

Tim has a fat narrowboat...

 

Ah, I didn't read that far down!

Edited June 16, 2012 by blackrose

[Taslim]

The earlier, & much wiser, posters have summed it up I think.

 

I'm looking to buy a canal boat & know very little so if a polka dot painted grp at the right price took my fancy....

 

I have noticed a couple of steel boats with slab sides.

 

My first thought was that they had been built in someones back garden & I looked to see if the bow was curved or just two plates welded to the sides & joined in the middle. In fact they were soundly built, just looked amateurish.

 

Second thought was 'bet that's a bugger to get through a bridge on a bend.

 

taslim.

[Higgs]

Ugly. I don't think so!

 

The cabinsides on your example are shallow and, to be honest, doesn't look ugly. Possibly the proportions help.

[Lady Muck]

Please don't build a boat like this for use on London's canals if you don't have a mooring. You will find it incredibly difficult to keep to the cruising guidelines as your moorings options will be limited by the size of the vessel. And if you struggle keep to the cruising guidelines, then you will be ticketed and fined and hassled constantly. It's not much fun, I know people in that position and they aren't very happy and would give an arm and a leg for a mooring rather than spend their lives being hassled, burgled etc.

 

Not only that, as others have pointed out, you stand to damage our precious, protected canal infrastructure, which has already taken quite a battering from unsuitable boats attempting to do the same.

 

You sound like you want a flat, not a boat, don't try to build a boat as if it were a flat.

 

I know this all sounds negative, but I've only been a boater in London for 6 years and I hear and see this kind of thing all the time.