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Mike the Boilerman

Ebay vintage engine sales

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Well, well, it is a small world. You do get around don't you Peter? Fancy that, being around to see his boat (Sika) there. :cheers:

Like you, I had no idea that you knew him.

 

 

 

If that was the Vintage Marine Engine Club Rally at Shardlow where they held a two minute silence for the recent death of the ex-owner of Kelvin Engines (a guy called Bergius perhaps, but in my old age the memory is fading now) then I was there with Mike. What a small world again!

 

Yes, he's still alive and kicking. I spoke to him on the phone only the other week and recently helped him review a submission that he was making to the Commission on a further amendment to the Recreational Craft and Personal Watercraft Directive.

There are also some changes involved in the EU Parliament, as you know for the TRIWV (Technical Requirements for Inland Waterways Vessels) regs (the bureaucrats get confused and introduce conflicting or sometimes misleading technical requirements and need someone of his expertise to straighten them out before it becomes law). There was a grey area in differing parts of differing legislation that would have meant that craft between 20 metres and 24 metres would be subject to two differing sets of regs IIRC.

Also recently there has been more confusion about significant wave height and some changes seemed to be bringing back the original figure which would enshrined definitions of waves which would swamp any narrow boat instantly.

Mike keeps a very close watch on what they propose and definitely does get revisions made where there are errors or confusion.

 

He usually replies to his e-mails so I don't know what happened there (although it could be his advancing old age and senility of course :lol: ..........and please do mention that if you e-mail him again ;) )

Try him again and if that fails let me know and I'll give him a clip round the ear (figuratively, of course)

Roger

 

Roger,

 

Yes that was the rally and we (self and wife) were in the Clock House where Mike did his presentation to the assembled club members. There was also an MEP there with Mike who I think he uses to get things raised in the EU Parliament when required - can't remember his name. Perhaps we met you as well!!

 

Yes we did hold a minute's silence for George Bergius, son of Walter who founded the Bergius Company, makers of Kelvin marine engines since 1904. I met George on the 2003 rally (Goldstone Wharf on the Shroppie) and have got his signature in one of Kevin Whittle's books.

 

Only a few months before the 2004 Shardlow rally we were invited (by a bit of luck) to the opening ceremony at the exhibition in Glasgow celebrating the centenary of the Bergius Co. George had helped prepare most of the historic photo and other display material but sadly died only a month before the opening ceremony. He was due to appear at Shardlow as well.

 

I will take your advice re emailing Mike again although it could be that I have an out of date address for him. Before I do, I might pm you to check the one I'm using in case that was the problem.

 

Richard

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Roger,

 

Yes that was the rally and we (self and wife) were in the Clock House where Mike did his presentation to the assembled club members. There was also an MEP there with Mike who I think he uses to get things raised in the EU Parliament when required - can't remember his name. Perhaps we met you as well!!

 

Yes we did hold a minute's silence for George Bergius, son of Walter who founded the Bergius Company, makers of Kelvin marine engines since 1904. I met George on the 2003 rally (Goldstone Wharf on the Shroppie) and have got his signature in one of Kevin Whittle's books.

 

Only a few months before the 2004 Shardlow rally we were invited (by a bit of luck) to the opening ceremony at the exhibition in Glasgow celebrating the centenary of the Bergius Co. George had helped prepare most of the historic photo and other display material but sadly died only a month before the opening ceremony. He was due to appear at Shardlow as well.

 

I will take your advice re emailing Mike again although it could be that I have an out of date address for him. Before I do, I might pm you to check the one I'm using in case that was the problem.

 

Richard

 

Yep, we were (wife and self) there at the presentation in the Clock House. Roger Helmer was the MEP present that day but Mike also uses Martin Callanan MEP as he was the original chairman (except that it has got another name in the EC bureaucracy) of the committee sorting out the RCD amendment.

 

As a member of the Vintage Marine Engine Club at the time I was also at Goldstone Wharf Rally and Albion won best vintage engine at the 2005(?) rally at Napton. I also have a couple of Kevin's books somewhere (A to Z of Vintage Engines, or something like that).

 

Try Mike again, or PM me for a double check on the e-mail address.

Roger

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Under the RCD regulation engines produced in series (on a production line) of any age of original or modern design must be submitted for and pass the relevant emissions regulations before they can be fitted to a water craft. The cost of submission and testing alone, never mind whether the engine could actually pass the emission limits, are so high that it is not worth submitting an old design, relatively low boat-volume-sales engine for testing. This is why engines such as the Rigas Diesalis and the Greaves couldn't continue to be sold for nbs because they were produced in series.

 

So how does Tony Redshaw sell those Indian Lister clones?

 

David

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So how does Tony Redshaw sell those Indian Lister clones?

 

David

Possibly by pretending that they are rebuilds of existing core engines if they are new ones. I know nothing about them or Mr Redshaw's probity.

Roger

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Yep, we were (wife and self) there at the presentation in the Clock House. Roger Helmer was the MEP present that day but Mike also uses Martin Callanan MEP as he was the original chairman (except that it has got another name in the EC bureaucracy) of the committee sorting out the RCD amendment.

 

As a member of the Vintage Marine Engine Club at the time I was also at Goldstone Wharf Rally and Albion won best vintage engine at the 2005(?) rally at Napton. I also have a couple of Kevin's books somewhere (A to Z of Vintage Engines, or something like that).

 

Try Mike again, or PM me for a double check on the e-mail address.

Roger

I only got to one rally , the one after Shardlow I think, in Bugsworth basin. I was camping - it rained!

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So how does Tony Redshaw sell those Indian Lister clones?

 

David

 

Yes I've always wondered about that! (Assuming they aren't able to meet the RCD emission requirements!)

 

Of course they can be fitted as a replacement engine in a boat that is second hand or predates the RCD.

 

They can also be fitted into a new boat being built as a DIY project for own use under the "5 year" rule.

 

This must presumably be an issue for newly made Russell Newbery's as well, unless they can meet the emissions spec.

 

Richard

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Surely the Lister CS2 clones that Tony Redshaw imports are so extensively re-worked as to bear little resemblance to the original Indian clones.

 

As imported the crank I understand is balanced for the large single flywheel he adds. New pistons are fitted. New variable speed governor. Its marinated ;)

Its lightened by removal of casting sand :rolleyes: which in itself should take it from the realms of series production in India.

 

I notice they are offered with a certificate of conformity if required.

 

In any case after this prototype fitted to Tony's nb Percy, has he sold any yet?

 

 

More pics'n video's on his facebook page.

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And getting back to the original topic after such an intersting diversion, here's a Thornycroft BMC 1.5 for £650! Are we agreed the BMC has crossed the boundary and achieved 'vintage' status onw?

 

I think your going a little off topic with that one Mike ;)

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Interesting topic. The BMCs built in Turkey etc are not compliant but get by on the "continuous" production and "vintage" labels attached to them. The Indian CS rip offs use the same excuse but admit to being unavailable to EU markets (although Tony isn't the only person to try and supply them) Who wants an engine built on a pavement from the contents of dustbins? At least the sand left in the crankcases is free!. Strangely the Dorman 2LBs made in China are allegedly compliant, and come with a conformity certificates, but no one imports them. Don't forget that loads of modern Perkins and Caterpillar engines used in the UK are now Chinese.As usual with most EU regulations there are more holes than logic in application.

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A couple of kelvins currently on ebay...

 

the J4 that has been mentioned in General Boating http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/boat-engine-/300695705913?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_Boat_Engines_EngineParts_SM&hash=item4602dc5939

 

And a T4. Or two actually, he seems to have a pair http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160778937666&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123

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Roger,

 

Yes that was the rally and we (self and wife) were in the Clock House where Mike did his presentation to the assembled club members. There was also an MEP there with Mike who I think he uses to get things raised in the EU Parliament when required - can't remember his name. Perhaps we met you as well!!

 

Yes we did hold a minute's silence for George Bergius, son of Walter who founded the Bergius Company, makers of Kelvin marine engines since 1904. I met George on the 2003 rally (Goldstone Wharf on the Shroppie) and have got his signature in one of Kevin Whittle's books.

 

Only a few months before the 2004 Shardlow rally we were invited (by a bit of luck) to the opening ceremony at the exhibition in Glasgow celebrating the centenary of the Bergius Co. George had helped prepare most of the historic photo and other display material but sadly died only a month before the opening ceremony. He was due to appear at Shardlow as well.

 

I will take your advice re emailing Mike again although it could be that I have an out of date address for him. Before I do, I might pm you to check the one I'm using in case that was the problem.

 

Richard

 

When we bought Alnwick in 2005, Phil Trotter allowed us to read through the extensive files containing the letters and photographs from his exchange of correspondence with George Bergius that started in 1994 and continued for almost ten years.

 

As a young man George had been involved with the design and testing of the 'K' and 'J' series engines and in one letter he says that the three cylinder 'K3' was always his favourite because it proved easier to start and seemed better balanced for slow running than its two and four cylinder brethren. In the same letter he also praises the 3 cylinder Perkins engine that was often fitted to Ferguson Tractors and which, in his opinion, had similar qualities - I wonder if anyone has tried one of those in a boat.

 

It was George who encouraged Phil Trotter to install a K3 in a suitably designed narrow boat and this repeated theme in the correspondence eventually resulted in the design and build of Alnwick. Indeed George appears to have been consulted throughout Alnwick's design stage and one of his letters thanks Phil for his hospitality and compliments him on the work in progress - this suggests that he visited the yard at Saul Junction when Alnwick's build was under-way.

 

And getting back to the original topic after such an intersting diversion, here's a Thornycroft BMC 1.5 for £650! Are we agreed the BMC has crossed the boundary and achieved 'vintage' status onw?

 

I think the marinised BMC diesels should most definitely be classed as 'vintage' - after all they were being built in the United Kingdom at more or less the same time as vintage Gardners, Listers and Kelvins.

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When we bought Alnwick in 2005, Phil Trotter allowed us to read through the extensive files containing the letters and photographs from his exchange of correspondence with George Bergius that started in 1994 and continued for almost ten years.

 

As a young man George had been involved with the design and testing of the 'K' and 'J' series engines and in one letter he says that the three cylinder 'K3' was always his favourite because it proved easier to start and seemed better balanced for slow running than its two and four cylinder brethren. In the same letter he also praises the 3 cylinder Perkins engine that was often fitted to Ferguson Tractors and which, in his opinion, had similar qualities - I wonder if anyone has tried one of those in a boat.

 

It was George who encouraged Phil Trotter to install a K3 in a suitably designed narrow boat and this repeated theme in the correspondence eventually resulted in the design and build of Alnwick. Indeed George appears to have been consulted throughout Alnwick's design stage and one of his letters thanks Phil for his hospitality and compliments him on the work in progress - this suggests that he visited the yard at Saul Junction when Alnwick's build was under-way.

 

I remember coming down Braunston locks many, many years ago and admiring the sound of the engine in fairly unprepossessing aged boat alongside us.I thought it sounded rather traddy but, on enquiring, I was told it was an ex-Fergie tractor 3 cylinder engine. So the answer to your question is, yes someone has done it but it was a long time ago that I saw it.

Roger

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I remember coming down Braunston locks many, many years ago and admiring the sound of the engine in fairly unprepossessing aged boat alongside us.I thought it sounded rather traddy but, on enquiring, I was told it was an ex-Fergie tractor 3 cylinder engine. So the answer to your question is, yes someone has done it but it was a long time ago that I saw it.

Roger

 

Presumably that was the P3, we had one in our Leeds & Liverpool Short Boat for a while. I think they were fitted as conversions from petrol tractors. Later Fergusons had their own 4-cyl engine which was also used in the Standard Vanguard car.

I've seen one or two of those in boats in the past.

 

The Beta 'tug' engines are based on 3-cyl tractor engines, initially a Ford/Lister unit & currently John Deere.

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech

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Presumably that was the P3, we had one in our Leeds & Liverpool Short Boat for a while. I think they were fitted as conversions from petrol tractors. Later Fergusons had their own 4-cyl engine which was also used in the Standard Vanguard car.

I've seen one or two of those in boats in the past.

 

The Beta 'tug' engines are based on 3-cyl tractor engines, initially a Ford/Lister unit & currently John Deere.

 

Tim

I honestly couldn't say what type Tim, as the engine was tucked away inside the boat (it was by no means a 'looker' with open engine room) and we were only alongside each other while descending the lock.

As well as the Beta 3 cylinder Calcutt used to marinise a later 3 cyl Perkins (the D3, like this one of someone else's on You Tube

)

Roger

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I've recently come across three Perkins P3s set up as power for standby pumps at a power station. Sum total of all the hours run by the three of them is under 400 in fifty years! They sit in a pump house complete with Fergy bonnets and exhausts, surreal!

 

The same site has three unused Leyland 600's on cooling water pumps and, bizarrely, three VW Golf diesels in a fire pump house dating from the 80's and never used. A mate of mine , Chris Dalby, has a lovely P3 in his NB Kingsbere. I got it from a Tech College where it was the resident engine on an instructional Heenan&Froud dynamometer. Deserves a decent engine room rather than hidden in a box but is a lovely motor. They should be far more sought after than they are and are certainly an underated classic.

Edited by steamraiser2

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Not on eBay but AD, noticed Martyn from MPS has a few vintage Listers for sale, rebuilt & as is - click image to see them all

 

ListerJS3M.jpg

 

This JS3M is particularly interesting although the newest. Only made in 3 cylinder flavour and in small numbers, this even rarer marine variant was a development of the JP3 & sports the original Blackstone 2:1 box. In order to get the revs up to 1500 they changed the crank bearings from white metal to thin wall. They also added oil pressure fed lubrication to the rockers as used on the slightly later JK series.

 

Video of test run - note marine version dry sump external oil tank.

 

Edited by richardhula

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Hi, We have a Lister 4 Cylinder but would love to swap it for a two cylinder but we are finding it hard to come across them. If anybody does come across them please let me know :-)

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Two cylinders get easier to find as your budget climbs ;)

 

The chances of someone wanting to swap a four cyl for a twin are vanishingly small though. Like you, no-one wants four cyl diesels. You're gonna have to dip you hand in your pocket and just buy a twin....

 

And there are FOUR vintagy-type twins on eBay at the moment!

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1941 Lister JP2M for auction possibly for somewhat less than the £48,000 mentioned, with or without boat ;)

 

$T2eC16ZHJF0E9nmFSs4-BQg9,0k!tw~~60_58.JPG

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