bss fail on wiring

[Hannah and Jay]

Our lil boat has just failed its safety on a few minor points, all resolved accept one... A fail on 3.3.1 "Are all electrical cables supported in a safe position?" At the time of the test the examiner said it was because our lighting wire was attached to the ceiling with a few sporadic cable clips and drooping in between cable clips. We plan to trunk this wire once we have found suitable light fittings for our MR11 1W bulbs (which we are also fiding difficult to source...). Now firstly will it pass if we secure the wire with lots of cable clips and make the wiring suitably taught? Or does it HAVE to be trunked/in a conduit? Secondly he remarked that he would have used fatter wire for the lighting, its garden lighting wire sold to us by a good friend who has worked on boats for years and really knows what he's doing. When i spoke to the examiner yesterday he couldn't remember whether he had also failed us on cable capacity but on checking the fail sheets, he's only failed us on 3.3.1 in section three which doesn't mention wire cqpacity, can he fail this on the retest? Cos u sure cant do that on an MOT!

Thanks for any advice... Hannah

[mrsmelly]

Our lil boat has just failed its safety on a few minor points, all resolved accept one... A fail on 3.3.1 "Are all electrical cables supported in a safe position?" At the time of the test the examiner said it was because our lighting wire was attached to the ceiling with a few sporadic cable clips and drooping in between cable clips. We plan to trunk this wire once we have found suitable light fittings for our MR11 1W bulbs (which we are also fiding difficult to source...). Now firstly will it pass if we secure the wire with lots of cable clips and make the wiring suitably taught? Or does it HAVE to be trunked/in a conduit? Secondly he remarked that he would have used fatter wire for the lighting, its garden lighting wire sold to us by a good friend who has worked on boats for years and really knows what he's doing. When i spoke to the examiner yesterday he couldn't remember whether he had also failed us on cable capacity but on checking the fail sheets, he's only failed us on 3.3.1 in section three which doesn't mention wire cqpacity, can he fail this on the retest? Cos u sure cant do that on an MOT!

Thanks for any advice... Hannah

 

Dont know about the wiring without seeing it, but I get my mr11 1w led bulbs off ebay.

[Bob18]

Sources for LED MR11 - Bedazzled and Baddie the Pirate

Both are boaters (or at least have a boat), and do some quiet useful stuff.

[RobinJ]

Our lil boat has just failed its safety on a few minor points, all resolved accept one... A fail on 3.3.1 "Are all electrical cables supported in a safe position?" At the time of the test the examiner said it was because our lighting wire was attached to the ceiling with a few sporadic cable clips and drooping in between cable clips. We plan to trunk this wire once we have found suitable light fittings for our MR11 1W bulbs (which we are also fiding difficult to source...). Now firstly will it pass if we secure the wire with lots of cable clips and make the wiring suitably taught? Or does it HAVE to be trunked/in a conduit? Secondly he remarked that he would have used fatter wire for the lighting, its garden lighting wire sold to us by a good friend who has worked on boats for years and really knows what he's doing. When i spoke to the examiner yesterday he couldn't remember whether he had also failed us on cable capacity but on checking the fail sheets, he's only failed us on 3.3.1 in section three which doesn't mention wire cqpacity, can he fail this on the retest? Cos u sure cant do that on an MOT!

The type of wire is not important, its the cross sectional area and insulation to handle the current or power.

If the wires are hanging loose (awaiting the ceiling going up) it seems a bit petty, but maybe he felt it was likely to be some time before it changed?

Fitting them into trunking/conduit will solve the problem!

[koukouvagia]

 

 

Now firstly will it pass if we secure the wire with lots of cable clips and make the wiring suitably taught? Or does it HAVE to be trunked/in a conduit?

 

No. The BSS bible says: "All electrical cables must be supported away from equipment likely to cause impact or abrasion damage; or, contained in a conduit or cable tray supported away from it."

[by'eck]

The current draw of some LED lights is so incredibly small that the thinnest wire you can imagine might work without danger or excessive volt drop. The problem is what if a tungsten bulbed lamp is fitted at the same point later. Within reason you can never have too great a gauge of cable. I would use 1.5mm² as a bare minimum for lighting.

 

I imagine your examiner was demonstrating common sense thinking rather than anything specific laid down in the rules.

[David Schweizer]

The type of wire is not important, its the cross sectional area and insulation to handle the current or power.

If the wires are hanging loose (awaiting the ceiling going up) it seems a bit petty, but maybe he felt it was likely to be some time before it changed?

Fitting them into trunking/conduit will solve the problem!

Are you sure about that? I have always understood that cable used for lighting etc. on boats must be flexible multi strand in order to eliminate the risk if vibration fatigue. If that is the case, it would make most types of Domestic House cable inappropriate.

Edited January 11, 2012 by David Schweizer

[alan_fincher]

Are you sure about that? I have always understood that cable used for lightuing etc. on boats must be flexible multi strand in order to eliminate the risk if vibration fatigue. If that is still the case it would make most types of Domestic House cable inappropriate.

Under the 2005 regs that now apply to private boats, David, the use of multi-stranded wire is a "good practice" or "recommendation", not mandatory.

 

If it were a boat let for hire, (for example), where the 2002 version still applies, then it would be mandatory.

 

One of the pitfalls of someone with a private boat then starting to want to hire it - the BSS it then requires is more stringent.

 

Edited because I spotted "2055" when I of course meant "2005".

Edited January 11, 2012 by alan_fincher

[David Schweizer]

Under the 2055 regs that now apply to private boats, David, the use of multi-stranded wire is a "good practice" or "recommendation", not mandatory.

 

If it were a boat let for hire, (for example), where the 2002 version still applies, then it would be mandatory.

 

One of the pitfalls of someone with a private boat then starting to want to hire it - the BSS it then requires is more stringent.

Our boat was built to the more stringent Hire Boat requirements, and I have maintained that standard since. It is possible that I was told about the wiring requirements by Balliol Fowden, who built our boat.

[NB Willawaw]

3.3.1/R says:

 

Are all electrical cables supported in a safe position?

 

Check the run of all cables which can be seen and identify any structure

or item of equipment likely to cause impact or abrasion damage.

 

Identify any cables subject to the possibility of impact or abrasion

damage and check for means of protection or support.

 

Check arrangements where cables can be seen passing through

bulkheads or structural members.

 

Check the condition of all cable conduit or trays that can be seen.

 

All electrical cables must be:

n supported away from equipment likely to cause impact or abrasion

damage; or,

contained in a conduit or cable tray supported away from it.

 

Cables passing through bulkheads or structural members must be

protected against chafing damage by the use of grommets, sleeves

or sealant used effectively.

 

Cable conduit or cable trays must be free of signs of overheating

or damage.

 

If you ensure that the visible cables are either adequately supported by clips or in conduit, it should be fine. Adequate is at the surveyors discretion.

 

 

I don't believe cable has to be multi-stranded for the BSS but it is a strong recommendation. It makes sense to just use the right cable and then its safe and you get no hassle from surveyors. Personally, I always wire everything to RCD standards and they are far more stringent about these sorts of things.

 

Why don't you speak to the surveyor in question and clarify the issue about the cable capacity - find out what his expectations are or whether its just an observation comment ?? - they are only human and are then to help and keep you safe.

 

MR11 fittings are really easy to find - why are you struggling ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Our lil boat has just failed its safety on a few minor points, all resolved accept one... A fail on 3.3.1 "Are all electrical cables supported in a safe position?" At the time of the test the examiner said it was because our lighting wire was attached to the ceiling with a few sporadic cable clips and drooping in between cable clips. We plan to trunk this wire once we have found suitable light fittings for our MR11 1W bulbs (which we are also fiding difficult to source...). Now firstly will it pass if we secure the wire with lots of cable clips and make the wiring suitably taught? Or does it HAVE to be trunked/in a conduit? Secondly he remarked that he would have used fatter wire for the lighting, its garden lighting wire sold to us by a good friend who has worked on boats for years and really knows what he's doing. When i spoke to the examiner yesterday he couldn't remember whether he had also failed us on cable capacity but on checking the fail sheets, he's only failed us on 3.3.1 in section three which doesn't mention wire cqpacity, can he fail this on the retest? Cos u sure cant do that on an MOT!

Thanks for any advice... Hannah

[alan_fincher]

Our boat was built to the more stringent Hire Boat requirements, and I have maintained that standard since. It is possible that I was told about the wiring requirements by Balliol Fowden, who built our boat.

For some years, (and I have no idea if that is when yours was built), whether private or commercially let the BSS would have required multi-strand cable as mandatory.

 

Although they have relaxed that for private boats, it is still a "strong recommendation", so I agree with you and Willawaw that it seems daft not to do everything in multi-strand.

 

Why, for example wire the 240 volt side in 2.5mm solid drawn T&G domestic cable, when you can do it in (say) 2.5mm multi-stranded Arctic cable. It would make no sense (to me), but BSS-wise at least, nothing stops you.

 

Would it we too cheeky to suggest that where any cable is hidden, either in conduit, or behind removable panels, very few BSS inspectors will go looking to see what is there, other than maybe at a fusebox/breaker box end of things. If it is openly clipped to the roof, they are, I would suggest, far more likely to become interested in the actual cable in use.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Multi strand 1.5mm caries a 12v field better and there is less chance of a break in the wire. voltage drop is a big problem on long runs of wire and that will lead to bulb failer

[sheriff]

safety first........when I fiited out my shell I went for 'best practise'and used the maximum size cable every where(cross section)....so voltage drop is minimal....

 

I put all my cable im loom(which is only required in the engine room).....I assume a retest is included in the fee.

 

good luck...

[RobinJ]

Are you sure about that? I have always understood that cable used for lighting etc. on boats must be flexible multi strand in order to eliminate the risk if vibration fatigue. If that is the case, it would make most types of Domestic House cable inappropriate.

Should have pointed our that stranded was the better option!

I was avoiding the obvious that garden lighting uses anything from speaker type cable to armoured stuff!

[bottle]

can he fail this on the retest? Cos u sure cant do that on an MOT

 

Oh yes it can, if the retest for an MOT is within a specified time then only the failure is checked, if outside that time then a full test is required, also something about if the garage that did the MOT does the repair but I digress.

 

Better to get it all correct, your boat, your life and your crews.

 

If you cannot get the trunking fitted in time then I suggest a support for the cable every 30 cms (1 ft old money )

[bizzard]

3.3.1/R says:

 

Are all electrical cables supported in a safe position?

 

Check the run of all cables which can be seen and identify any structure

or item of equipment likely to cause impact or abrasion damage.

 

Identify any cables subject to the possibility of impact or abrasion

damage and check for means of protection or support.

 

Check arrangements where cables can be seen passing through

bulkheads or structural members.

 

Check the condition of all cable conduit or trays that can be seen.

 

All electrical cables must be:

n supported away from equipment likely to cause impact or abrasion

damage; or,

contained in a conduit or cable tray supported away from it.

 

Cables passing through bulkheads or structural members must be

protected against chafing damage by the use of grommets, sleeves

or sealant used effectively.

 

Cable conduit or cable trays must be free of signs of overheating

or damage.

 

If you ensure that the visible cables are either adequately supported by clips or in conduit, it should be fine. Adequate is at the surveyors discretion.

 

 

I don't believe cable has to be multi-stranded for the BSS but it is a strong recommendation. It makes sense to just use the right cable and then its safe and you get no hassle from surveyors. Personally, I always wire everything to RCD standards and they are far more stringent about these sorts of things.

 

Why don't you speak to the surveyor in question and clarify the issue about the cable capacity - find out what his expectations are or whether its just an observation comment ?? - they are only human and are then to help and keep you safe.

 

MR11 fittings are really easy to find - why are you struggling ?

Also wiring must be in conduit if run close to gas or fuel piping.

[David Schweizer]

For some years, (and I have no idea if that is when yours was built), whether private or commercially let the BSS would have required multi-strand cable as mandatory.

 

Although they have relaxed that for private boats, it is still a "strong recommendation", so I agree with you and Willawaw that it seems daft not to do everything in multi-strand.

 

Why, for example wire the 240 volt side in 2.5mm solid drawn T&G domestic cable, when you can do it in (say) 2.5mm multi-stranded Arctic cable. It would make no sense (to me), but BSS-wise at least, nothing stops you.

 

Would it we too cheeky to suggest that where any cable is hidden, either in conduit, or behind removable panels, very few BSS inspectors will go looking to see what is there, other than maybe at a fusebox/breaker box end of things. If it is openly clipped to the roof, they are, I would suggest, far more likely to become interested in the actual cable in use.

Helvetia was commissioned in March 1982, and was initially a shared use boat owned by a Shipping company's staff club, and presumably had to comply with hire boat regulations. We bought her in 1997.

 

When I installed a 240v inverter fed line, I automaticly selected Arctic Cable because if it's flexibility and toleration of low temperatures. I would never have even considered Domestic hard cable.

[Hannah and Jay]

Thanks for responses... I STILL don't know how to multiquote so a general reply...

 

We have MR11 one watt bulbs, that's not a problem, one pound a pop from china and they are great. Its sourcing suitsble fittings that's the prob. The ceiling's original we haven't touched that and isulated with poly hense not running wiring behind ceiling (which would be WAY to tricky in this case anyhow) hense running wiring this side of ceiling and in time, in trunking. Struggling to find mr11 fittings that do not need to be recessed into ceiling and instead just sit flush on it...

 

Our wiring is multistranded 1mm2 and I'll have to clarify with inspector whether he'll pass this (although I haven't seen any thing in the bss on wiring capacity and its certainly not in 3.3.1, the only electrical thing he failed us on. Will also clarify with him that regular cable clips is sufficient to pass it but I sure as hell hope that the wire size isn't a massive stumbling block because replacing that will take time and money that we are equally short of at the moment!

[frangar]

At long as you use a suitable fuse for the cable/load (I suggest 1 or 2 Amp blade fuse) then it should be fine for the BSS/surveyor.....mark the rating/what the load is on the fuseboard then if anyone replaces the LED with halogen you have done your bit!. Done this on all the new builds and the surveyor the boat builder uses (whos a right fussy bugger!!) is quite happy

 

HTH

 

Gareth

[Radiomariner]

Would it we too cheeky to suggest that where any cable is hidden, either in conduit, or behind removable panels, very few BSS inspectors will go looking to see what is there, other than maybe at a fusebox/breaker box end of things. If it is openly clipped to the roof, they are, I would suggest, far more likely to become interested in the actual cable in use.

Sad to say, in a nutshell, that is about it.

 

At long as you use a suitable fuse for the cable/load (I suggest 1 or 2 Amp blade fuse) then it should be fine for the BSS/surveyor.....mark the rating/what the load is on the fuseboard then if anyone replaces the LED with halogen you have done your bit!. Done this on all the new builds and the surveyor the boat builder uses (whos a right fussy bugger!!) is quite happy

 

HTH

 

Gareth

Correct

BSS Examiner is not interested on the electric current requirements of the lighting, nor of the voltage drop rendering a degree of inefficiency, but he wants to know that the fuse, or breaker rating is less than the maximum current capacity of the wiring. If a future owner replaces LED's with halogen then he (The examiner) wants the fuse to trip rather than the wiring overheat. There is then the probability that the fuse would be uprated without uprating the wiring. But that is another story., I would probably advise marking the maximum rating for that circuit. in spite of it not being a BSS failure point uless the fuse has already been replaced by a higher rating.

 

As for the wiring being supported, I agree, fix in more supporting clips. Big loops in wiring can be snagged or used for hanging things, Inspection lamps and coat hangers and for threading power tool leads through to keep them out of the way. More likely when furbishhment or refit is under way. The weight of the loop itself can stress a cable.

 

Edited to add he (the examiner) to improve clarity.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Radiomariner

[DHutch]

The current draw of some LED lights is so incredibly small that the thinnest wire you can imagine might work without danger or excessive volt drop. The problem is what if a tungsten bulbed lamp is fitted at the same point later. Within reason you can never have too great a gauge of cable. I would use 1.5mm² as a bare minimum for lighting.

The cable should be suitable for the maximum current draw expected and protected by a suitable fuse.

- If the lighting is only ever going to be LED, and the cable sized accordingly, you simply need an accordingly sized fuse.

- However if the cable is thinner than the fuse provides adequate protection for, you have a problem, fire hazard, and good reason to fail BSS.

 

 

Daniel

 

Would it we too cheeky to suggest that where any cable is hidden, either in conduit, or behind removable panels, very few BSS inspectors will go looking to see what is there, other than maybe at a fusebox/breaker box end of things. If it is openly clipped to the roof, they are, I would suggest, far more likely to become interested in the actual cable in use.

Not that, I hope, you are suggesting simply papering over the cracks, or pulling the wool, so to speak.

[alan_fincher]

Not that, I hope, you are suggesting simply papering over the cracks, or pulling the wool, so to speak.

No, indeed not!

 

I actually take on-board safety very seriously - anyone who has studied those MAIB reports on totally burnt out narrow-boats will realise that on-board fires can be devastating, and deaths can easily result.

 

The reality though is the BSS inspections simply do not allow time to take down panels or open up conduit to see what's inside them, so a lot of judgements made on electrics & gas will be based on inspecting the extremities, and assuming what's on the invisible bit is the same.

 

So if thick stranded cable is joined by a "choc-block" connector to thin bell wire somewhere behind the panels, the likelihood is it will not be spotted. A good reason why despite its good intentions, buying a boat with even a brand new BSS certificate is no guarantee of its safety of course.

 

I'm absolutely not suggesting anyone does anything dodgy - sorry! I see it could have easily been read that way! But, for examples all Chalice's cabling runs unconduited on one side where the top of the cabin side joins the roof. It is not clipped or stapled to anything, just a bunch of cables, and when the covering panels get screwed over them, that's what keeps the bundle there. In my view not dangerous in any way, (many older boats do just this), but if I presented the boat for BSS inspection with the wood panels taken down, and some cable bundles hanging down a bit, then I might expect to see more questions asked.

[Nine of Hearts]

The current draw of some LED lights is so incredibly small that the thinnest wire you can imagine might work without danger or excessive volt drop. The problem is what if a tungsten bulbed lamp is fitted at the same point later.

 

Then the fitter of that light would be at fault for putting an inappropriate load on the existing wiring. You could also argue, "what if someone were later to put a 1m candlepower searchlight on there?", so by that token you should be fitting 75mm² throughout.

 

Struggling to find mr11 fittings that do not need to be recessed into ceiling and instead just sit flush on it...

 

So don't. Put them in a housing comme ça;

 

Edited January 12, 2012 by Nine of Hearts

[RobinJ]

Thanks for responses... I STILL don't know how to multiquote so a general reply...

 

We have MR11 one watt bulbs, that's not a problem, one pound a pop from china and they are great. Its sourcing suitsble fittings that's the prob. The ceiling's original we haven't touched that and isulated with poly hense not running wiring behind ceiling (which would be WAY to tricky in this case anyhow) hense running wiring this side of ceiling and in time, in trunking. Struggling to find mr11 fittings that do not need to be recessed into ceiling and instead just sit flush on it...

 

Our wiring is multistranded 1mm2 and I'll have to clarify with inspector whether he'll pass this (although I haven't seen any thing in the bss on wiring capacity and its certainly not in 3.3.1, the only electrical thing he failed us on. Will also clarify with him that regular cable clips is sufficient to pass it but I sure as hell hope that the wire size isn't a massive stumbling block because replacing that will take time and money that we are equally short of at the moment!

There are some fittings that have swivelly bulb holders and even those that mount onto a rail, but I suppose you would have a problem with headroom.

How about making up a circular container either from wood or even metal/plastic that is deep enough to take the bulb? (Caps of large aerosols spring to mind!)

[Bobbybass]

Then the fitter of that light would be at fault for putting an inappropriate load on the existing wiring. You could also argue, "what if someone were later to put a 1m candlepower searchlight on there?", so by that token you should be fitting 75mm² throughout.

 

 

 

So don't. Put them in a housing comme ça;

 

 

Where do I find this company : comme ça so that I can buy these ?

I Googled them for lights...but didn't find them..?

 

Bob

Edited January 12, 2012 by Bobbybass