I think I've had enough now.

[journeyperson]

I struggle to connect properly with the membership of the forum now. When I joined it was perhaps a quarter of the size that it is now, and many members contributed regularly. New members joined up at a slow and steady pace and it was easy for them to grow their own personalities and fit in.

 

Nowadays, I can't manage to have enough close links with all of the regular members that we have. Nett result is that I have withdrawn rather than try

 

Richard

 

That's an interesting viewpoint. My main interest in the forum is to further my enjoyment of boating, keep in touch with developments and get answers to problems that arise. I am always pleased to bump into other members and I have met quite a few, but I don't see the forum as a social club.

 

What you are saying is that you feel comfortable with certain long term members and uncomfortable with more recent members. That is quite an exclusive reaction to all but a select few.

[Guest Quo Vadis]

My experience has been that there is a core of regular posters on here who have a tendency, possibly unwittingly, to generally put down, criticise, round upon, attack, belittle or overwhelm anyone who's not part of the clique, and then act all hurt and self righteous when it leads to people withdrawing from debate on the grounds that they were simply exercising their right to have an alternative opinion. If they end up just sniping at each other because the rest of us can't be bothered setting ourselves up to be knocked down, it's self inflicted.

 

Well said that man!

[jonk]

While there does appear to be a few members that can't accept that they are wrong, or can't accept an alternative view as equally right, I can accept that situation since I have learnt so much from the many knowledgeable people on here. While I have many years of general boating experience, on river and sea, my knowledge of narrowboats was limited to the use of friend's boats. Due largely to knowledge acquired on these forums I now have my own 57' narrowboat and I know quite a lot about narrowboats in general. So I think that these forums ARE very useful, perhaps we just have to accept that there are 'spoilers' on here just as there are in real life and try to either ignore them or accept them for what they are. Generally the mods do a good low profile job although even they sometimes get drawn in where perhaps discretion would have been better.

So - my view is use the forums to gain the knowledge you want, and give it where you can, but as soon as you see a topic descending into petty argument leave it and don't look again. If you DO want an argument then there are some who will play ball eagerly even if not really very well.

 

John

[mayalld]

OK then, there is a clear perception rightly or wrongly that a clique exists, so what do we do about it? We cannot have a situation where it is impossible to expose the shortcomings of a deeply flawed premise. No one should be afraid to post for fear of a clique nor for fear of being seen as part of a clique.

 

Nail hit squarely on the head.

 

There is no clique (for a clique of people who are pathalogiocally incapable of agreeing about anything would be an odd sort of clique).

 

What we do have is, overlaying all the other points of view on other things, a schism.

 

On one side of the schism are those whose world view centres around getting to the bottom of issues, debating, setting forth their views and advancing arguments in support of those views, dealing where possible in facts and distinguishing facts from opinions.

 

On the other side are those who believe that debating, facts and advancing your opinion must always be secondary, and that even if a new member is wrong, we should let his views stand unchallenged. because that is "nice"

 

I stand unashamedly with the first group. If that makes me part of a clique with people who I disagree with, then so be it!

 

If somebody talks bollocks, and offers opinions that they can't support, or profers opinion as fact, then I'm NOT going to pretend that they are right. That isn't being nice, it is being patronising. If people want to characterise "winning" an argument as "bullying", then I can't stop them doing so. They are hopelessly wrong, but that is their problem.

 

The alternative is that people can advance their opinion unchallenged and present it as fact, and I really don't think the world needs another NBW

[bottle]

Been here a long time, probably to long but in the beginning (not a sermon, honest) this forum helped me through a 'sticky' patch in my life.

 

I had a little knowledge, still the same, of narrow boats and life in general.

 

I used to read every new post, every day but now admit to reading only some of the new posts, everyday.

 

I went to a few banters and met a few members and can honestly say I did not meet anyone I did not like.

 

We have always had new members and the majority join to advance their knowledge and discuss matters boating but there is always the 'odd' one that joins and is only here to troll. (grammar ) [had a spell check warning on that )

 

We have some excellent debaters on here and the troll does not really stand a chance.

 

Why did I post this, just part of my quest to find a clique.

 

I have heard about these cliques all my working life and have yet to find one. they may exist in the minds of 'new people'.

 

I have found groups of people that have known each other for a long time and have a rapport between them.

 

Is that a clique, if so then maybe I have been in a clique and not known it.

 

Rambling over, tablets to take and battery levels to check.

 

Did I tell you about my new batteries?

[alan_fincher]

I've not been a member on here for long, but it rapidly became obvious that there was a hardcore of "long standing members" who regularly descended into personal abuse and wrecked the topic. Personally I don't think that is probably their intention, but I do think they lack the social skills to appreciate how repulsive others see their rantings. The trouble is though, I find these same people have a great deal of knowledge and experience which I have found extremely interesting and valuable. So I don't know what the best answer is except to encourage them to learn how to respect others who take a different view or have less knowledge than them. They have a lot to offer, but they also have a lot that's not wanted. Sort out which is which and we'll all benefit.

Now watch me get slagged off for that !!!!!!

Love you lots!

Brian

I am genuinely surprised, (and that's being completely honest, not condescending), that your post has already achieved 10 positive "greenie votes".

 

I also genuinely can simply not agree with your first sentence, but have to acknowledge that such levels of support for views like you express must mean that many people think they have validity.

 

The problem is that it really still doesn't leave me knowing if most of your ten supporters would consider me part of the "hardcore" or not, or whether I am regularly dishing out "a lot that is not wanted".

 

Perhaps my failure to know for certain whether I am one of the bad boys is simply proving the "lack of social skills" you talk about, though if I were personally being accused of "repulsive rantings", I would certainly not be one to let it go without trying to understand why, and defend my position.

 

Such views leave me unsure what to do really, or whether I need to consider how I come across, but clearly I have to accept that people like yourself feel that plenty is wrong, (though presumably not enough so to walk away from the forum immediately.

 

Personally, though, I still think most of the worst "spat" threads have deliberately started and fuelled by some of the newest user-names on the board. Whether all of them are genuinely "new users", or whether some are old hands coming back under an "alter-ego" just to see what they can stir up, I am sometimes not sure!

[carlt]

Nail hit squarely on the head.

 

There is no clique (for a clique of people who are pathalogiocally incapable of agreeing about anything would be an odd sort of clique)...

I agree, though I am obviously in your clique, by doing so.

 

What I find strange is that those folk who group together, in agreement that there is a clique and it is wrong, don't accuse themselves of forming a clique?

 

I am genuinely surprised, (and that's being completely honest, not condescending), that your post has already achieved 10 positive "greenie votes".

This is obviously a clique, of 11 people.

[bizzard]

Oh I totally ...errr

No one's perfect.We can all Err occasionally even me.

[Sir Nibble]

Personally, though, I still think most of the worst "spat" threads have deliberately started and fuelled by some of the newest user-names on the board. Whether all of them are genuinely "new users", or whether some are old hands coming back under an "alter-ego" just to see what they can stir up, I am sometimes not sure!

For sure. To be honest the threads that seem to attract the accusations of bullying do seem to have several common factors but their origin in the clearly provocative statements of new members is perhaps the most striking.

[Chris Pink]

 

Personally, though, I still think most of the worst "spat" threads have deliberately started and fuelled by some of the newest user-names on the board. Whether all of them are genuinely "new users", or whether some are old hands coming back under an "alter-ego" just to see what they can stir up, I am sometimes not sure!

 

Whereas all this talk about talk, forum about forum is a bit anal to me. I think this "they're just old members back for a fight" is a cop-out used by a couple of people and in my opinion is very unlikely in most cases. After all if those members wanted a fight they are, universally, capable of picking one under their 'original' identities.

 

and if certain new members wade in fighting it is probably because they see a contentious atmosphere in some threads and think "give me a bit of that'.

 

The reason that this debate, destined to run for 13 pages and then go off-topic into some stupid puns, seems particularly anal is that you don't have to look far to see threads without any animosity or even gross disagreement, where problems have been solved, advice and resources given, historic information exchanged. If this thread wasn't so blinkered it would see that these are in the vast majority. Try this test: do the "recent topics", and count how many of those have descended into fights, less than 5%, would be my guess

 

I can see and understand Sir Nibble's frustration with some of the crap recently spouted on electrical threads (there's one in particular) but GIbbo's shouting down of all opposing views was no better in my view and if a bit of bullshit is the cost of ridding debate of this then, to my mind, so be it. There is also a lot of crap running around about "change the filters" shouted by the chorus at every fuel debate but it has been possible to thread reason through this.

 

And having broken my rule about talk about talk I'm out of here.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Chris Pink

[David Schweizer]

I struggle to connect properly with the membership of the forum now. When I joined it was perhaps a quarter of the size that it is now, and many members contributed regularly. New members joined up at a slow and steady pace and it was easy for them to grow their own personalities and fit in.

 

Nowadays, I can't manage to have enough close links with all of the regular members that we have. Nett result is that I have withdrawn rather than try

 

Richard

I think that a lot of the early members have either withdrawn all together, or reduced their involvement, and there are no doubt many reasons for that. I certainly feel that I get involved far less with some threads than I might have done in the past.

 

I suspect that like a number of long standing members, I have probably said all I want to say on some subjects so many times, that I simply cannot be bothered any more. However, there are some issues which still encourage me back onto my high horse, but I am not sure that many people really welcome my intervention these days. I also get a bit annoyed when a newcomer appears and ridicules an experienced and knowledgeable member's contribution, which usualy stimulates one response from me and then silence on whilst the arguement developes.

 

Like you, I have got to know a lot of people through the forum, and I have to say that whilst some go back a long way, several are comparatively new members. I know that you have managed to attend quite a few banters, but I have only attended two, and from those very few people contribute any more, and I do not have any contact with them, so my experience differs from yours in that respect.

 

I am wittering on, and no one will read it, so I will finish. I do know that my overwordy contributions have attained a reputation for killing a thread stone dead, so I apologise to Snibble (I have never acknowledged his Knighthood!) in advance if I achieve the same with this thread.

Edited November 29, 2011 by David Schweizer

[Theo]

It's how trolls destroy a forum...

 

only if we let them though..

 

A sensible reply!

 

Nick

Edited November 29, 2011 by Theo

[Theo]

Whereas all this talk about talk, forum about forum is a bit anal to me. I think this "they're just old members back for a fight" is a cop-out used by a couple of people and in my opinion is very unlikely in most cases. After all if those members wanted a fight they are, universally, capable of picking one under their 'original' identities.

 

and if certain new members wade in fighting it is probably because they see a contentious atmosphere in some threads and think "give me a bit of that'.

 

The reason that this debate, destined to run for 13 pages and then go off-topic into some stupid puns, seems particularly anal is that you don't have to look far to see threads without any animosity or even gross disagreement, where problems have been solved, advice and resources given, historic information exchanged. If this thread wasn't so blinkered it would see that these are in the vast majority. Try this test: do the "recent topics", and count how many of those have descended into fights, less than 5%, would be my guess

 

I can see and understand Sir Nibble's frustration with some of the crap recently spouted on electrical threads (there's one in particular) but GIbbo's shouting down of all opposing views was no better in my view and if a bit of bullshit is the cost of ridding debate of this then, to my mind, so be it. There is also a lot of crap running around about "change the filters" shouted by the chorus at every fuel debate but it has been possible to thread reason through this.

 

And having broken my rule about talk about talk I'm out of here.

 

Those who are wading through this navel gazing fest won't have time to read the more interesting stuff. I have just scanned #88 and am manfully struggling on!

 

Nick

Edited November 29, 2011 by Theo

[RLWP]

That's an interesting viewpoint. My main interest in the forum is to further my enjoyment of boating, keep in touch with developments and get answers to problems that arise. I am always pleased to bump into other members and I have met quite a few, but I don't see the forum as a social club.

 

What you are saying is that you feel comfortable with certain long term members and uncomfortable with more recent members. That is quite an exclusive reaction to all but a select few.

 

Make your mind up John. If you don't see this as a form of social club, how can I make you feel excluded

 

And yes, I feel uncomfortable with people I don't know, and more comfortable with ones I do. When members join a few at a time I can get to know them and be comfortable. There are now so many members, I can't. So I don't enjoy the forum so much, so I don't participate as much. Sorry if that makes me cliquey in your eyes

 

Richard

[Guest]

It's the nature of the beast - most forums are exactly like this one and it suffers from the same issue that the typed word on a screen without the back-up of inflexion and tone plus facial expression has real potential for being mis-understood, this is often when fall outs happen and/or spats begin.

[WotEver]

... GIbbo's shouting down of all opposing views was no better in my view...

I have to disagree with that. I may not have always liked Gibbo's approach, but in electrical threads I've never seen him be wrong. It helped cut through the B.S. being spouted by less knowledgeable folk and got straight to the nub of the matter in question.

 

I'm aware that you and he didn't get along, but that didn't make his contributions any less valuable.

 

Tony

 

Many people support me, by PM, on this issue, too.

Of course they do, Carl. Now come along and sit down here in this comfy chair. Have you had your medication yet?

 

I have pretty well given up with electrical threads now, partly because in Gibbos absence there is too much tripe that I cannot be arsed to take issue with, but mainly because it's so often like shouting into a vacuum. Problem raised, advice given, never ever hear about it again, no feedback nothing.

I have to agree.

[Doorman]

My experience has been that there is a core of regular posters on here who have a tendency, possibly unwittingly, to generally put down, criticise, round upon, attack, belittle or overwhelm anyone who's not part of the clique, and then act all hurt and self righteous when it leads to people withdrawing from debate on the grounds that they were simply exercising their right to have an alternative opinion. If they end up just sniping at each other because the rest of us can't be bothered setting ourselves up to be knocked down, it's self inflicted.

 

Well said there!

 

The culprits, unwitting or not, can on occasion create a forum that some folk would otherwise enjoy to participate in, but decline to, for fear of ridicule. Whilst we live in a less than perfect world, where you can't expect everyone to agree with your own point of view, a little more discretion would not go amiss when voicing ones opinion.

 

I too, initially took the bait when I first joined CWDF and to my shame, voiced some pretty strong personal views that had no place on here. It's only on reflection and following some deserved lambasting from the clique, did I see the error of my ways. So maybe they do serve a purpose in some form or another.

 

I do believe though, that in accepting different people's views more readily, we could all enjoy a more varied and attractive forum. Something that I have, and still am, learning to do!

 

Mike

Edited November 29, 2011 by Doorman

[Nine of Hearts]

The reason that this debate, destined to run for 13 pages and then go off-topic into some stupid puns, seems particularly anal is that you don't have to look far to see threads without any animosity or even gross disagreement, where problems have been solved, advice and resources given, historic information exchanged. If this thread wasn't so blinkered it would see that these are in the vast majority. Try this test: do the "recent topics", and count how many of those have descended into fights, less than 5%, would be my guess.

 

I think this is pretty accurate, and I have in the past has simultaneous bickerings on one thread and had civil comments on a technical nature on another from the same posters. I think the inane witterings that bubble on while there is nothing particularly useful to say just serve the purpose of keeping the forum alive until someone comes along with a worthwhile query.

[Chris Pink]

I have to disagree with that. I may not have always liked Gibbo's approach, but in electrical threads I've never seen him be wrong. It helped cut through the B.S. being spouted by less knowledgeable folk and got straight to the nub of the matter in question.

 

I'm aware that you and he didn't get along, but that didn't make his contributions any less valuable.

 

Tony

 

 

Without particularly wanting to take this off topic, one example where I found him dogmatic and insufferable was his refusal to accept people's need to abuse batteries in their everyday life and if so, in what way to minimise the damage.

 

In so many of these types of engineering problem, of course there is more than one solution, - specifically there is one optimum solution for each variable - and whereas the range of answers will contain a fair amount of bullshit they also contain a lot of useful information. He consistently shouted down any other solution than his own. It is this shouting down I took exception to, not his contributions, which is where it is relevant to this topic

 

This, as a more general point, applies to a lot of 'experts'. It is possible to state "I am an expert in this field, I think X, that is it" and allow person B to say " I think Y" without being so rude and confrontational.

 

The mere fact that so many more people contribute to the solution of electrical problems bears out what I say.

 

And I say this without trying to devalue his contributions and, more importantly, his willingness to give his time to analyse and solve many specific technical issues.

[WotEver]

The mere fact that so many more people contribute to the solution of electrical problems bears out what I say.

I suspect that we are now going off topic (wow, a CWDF thread going off-topic ) but the above comment proves my point about Gibbo's contributions cutting through the B.S. Yes, there are far more contributors to electrical threads these days, and the quality of the advice in those threads has tumbled in direct relationship to the increase in respondents.

 

Tony

[Joshua]

I have just returned from a 3 week tour of the UK where I visited the length and breath of the inland waterways and its varied inhabitants.

 

Before I left, and knowing that I would for the duration, be internet incommunicado, I promised myself that I would use the break of routine to kick the CWF habit.

 

For me, the pleasure and resourcefulness of the forum, had for some time, been increasingly undermined by a growing number of ill spirited and shockingly immature squabbles.

 

When I got back yesterday, however, I had no hesitation in logging on to the CWF to check the latest news, views and information because I now know the ‘real’ people living and working on the inland waterways are fantastically friendly and helpful and that the CWF is not at all representative of daily life on the cut.

 

My partner and I had a fantastic time and our enthusiasm for moving onto the water, which I have to admit, the Forum had dented, was fully restored.

 

If I ever again, find myself becoming depressed by tiresomely long and abusive threads, I will simply visit the real waterways again!

 

Hopefully, and as a result of our recent trip, we will soon inhabit and not have to ‘visit’ for much longer.

 

A big thank you to everyone we met for making it such an enjoyable and fingers crossed, successful experience.

 

 

 

Joshua

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

A sensible reply!

 

Nick

 

I know this will likely set me up for a negative reaction, but I think I'll make my point anyway as it could quite probably be my last post if this is how it actually goes as criticism is received badly even when it's attempted to be constructive.

 

I've only posted a few times mainly due in large to the points raised earlier (that which now stands at 10 greenies), but read a lot on here and a lot is useful, but a lot isn't. I just have to weigh up how much time I am prepared to sit and search for in order to sift through it to get at that information.

 

I see that people get labelled "troll", by the long standing members and moderators, even when they're not, just because they have a different opinion or in one case, a lack knowledge of boat maintenance. The moderators are responsible in their encouraging it, allowing it and even abusing their "powers" in light of it....cue my warn status to move to 1.

 

I've also seen certain members jump into threads, started innocently from an information request which has descended into argument, purely for the "I'll have some of that" mentality which then inflames things further, wherein the singled out party gets defensive and attacks back. At this point the validity of the thread that was started then becomes null and void.

 

I've even watched newer members goaded for no other reason than a longer established member decided to start a fight, which then escalates into other long standing members joining in, and we're back to square one. This is no doubt where the bullying/gang/clique accusation is derived from.

 

For the earlier comment to attain 10 positive votes so far, it should be obvious that there is a rooted concern amongst a section of this site that considers things are not as well as could be. Those very members may not post due to the inevitable slagging off and that means that some of the resources and knowledge available to others are simply not available even if that is not always boat related.

 

Only the truly conceited think they know everything past, present and future; whether you choose to accept the suggestion or argue it and put down the poster in light of that is then what defines this forum's usefulness.

 

Compare overall member numbers vs. the number who actually post over, say 15 times, and you'll see the whole picture. I would be wondering why there were so many "dead fish in the sea" and why.

 

My biggest concern is vulnerability. People join forums and are effectively a faceless electronic entity, which for some is where their bravado comes from but for others it may be the opposite as they are just looking for a common bond. Negative comments and attacks could deeply affect this type of poster and who's to say what could entail. Although I'm not aware it was connected to the forum, I read that a member took her own life a few months back.

 

How many faceless entities would rest well at night knowing they played a part in pushing someone over the edge though? I know I wouldn't.

 

I think Bill & Ted had it right all along...be excellent to each other.

 

If this is too much, at least if you can't say something nice, say nothing at all.

 

Cap'n Jack

[Guest]

Without particularly wanting to take this off topic, one example where I found him dogmatic and insufferable was his refusal to accept people's need to abuse batteries in their everyday life and if so, in what way to minimise the damage.

 

In so many of these types of engineering problem, of course there is more than one solution, - specifically there is one optimum solution for each variable - and whereas the range of answers will contain a fair amount of bullshit they also contain a lot of useful information. He consistently shouted down any other solution than his own. It is this shouting down I took exception to, not his contributions, which is where it is relevant to this topic

 

This, as a more general point, applies to a lot of 'experts'. It is possible to state "I am an expert in this field, I think X, that is it" and allow person B to say " I think Y" without being so rude and confrontational.

 

The mere fact that so many more people contribute to the solution of electrical problems bears out what I say.

 

And I say this without trying to devalue his contributions and, more importantly, his willingness to give his time to analyse and solve many specific technical issues.

Your first paragraph is incorrect. I remember Gibbo describing batteries "like a tin of beans-you chuck em when knackered," or words to that effect. I have discussed with him both on and off forum the short life (owing to inevitable abuse) of canal boat batteries on many occasions, which I can assure you he understood and appreciated fully.

 

It is true that Gibbo didn't suffer fools and could be very outspoken, but his knowledge on his subject was way and above anybody else's on here. Since his departure,I look in here a lot less often.

 

I must say that given the bullshit he had to endure, I am surprised he didn't quit sooner.

 

I will not be getting into any argument about this, and that is my last word, but I will not see a one time valuable member (from whom I learned most of what I know about boat electrics, Snibble being the other ) misquoted in this manner.

 

You sir, are bang out of order.

 

End of rant.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Guest

[Sir Nibble]

There have been a number of posters on electrical matters who have had the potential to cost members money if their advice were followed. Confidently stated misinformation must be robustly challenged in order to be sure it does not gain validity as simply another point of view. In fact I seem to remember Gibbo warning of that himself from time to time.

[Albion]

I have to disagree with that. I may not have always liked Gibbo's approach, but in electrical threads I've never seen him be wrong. It helped cut through the B.S. being spouted by less knowledgeable folk and got straight to the nub of the matter in question.

 

I'm aware that you and he didn't get along, but that didn't make his contributions any less valuable.

 

Tony

 

 

Of course they do, Carl. Now come along and sit down here in this comfy chair. Have you had your medication yet?

 

 

I have to agree.

Well said Tony. Have a greenie.

Roger