I think I've had enough now.

[Evo]

Top dog of the 'clique' has gone, its only natural the others become bored and fed up, its a well known phenominen that when a charismatic leader dies, the group dies.

 

Fortunately - after all the dead wood has been cleared - a new group with a new leader emerges.

[Chris Pink]

I suspect that we are now going off topic (wow, a CWDF thread going off-topic ) but the above comment proves my point about Gibbo's contributions cutting through the B.S. Yes, there are far more contributors to electrical threads these days, and the quality of the advice in those threads has tumbled in direct relationship to the increase in respondents.

 

Tony

 

It's possible, but there has to be some middle way.

 

Personally I think even in bullshit sodden threads there is still enough authoritative agreement for a person to form a judgement.

[WotEver]

Well said Tony. Have a greenie.

Roger

Why thank you sir And Catweasel - well said. Unfortunately I've run out of Greenies for today.

 

Tony

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

I would be wondering why there were so many "dead fish in the sea" and why.

 

<snip>

 

Cap'n Jack

 

There are several thousand dead spam accounts which were locked, not deleted.

 

Richard

[Guest]

There have been a number of posters on electrical matters who have had the potential to cost members money if their advice were followed. Confidently stated misinformation must be robustly challenged in order to be sure it does not gain validity as simply another point of view. In fact I seem to remember Gibbo warning of that himself from time to time.

I would take it one step further: There have been a number of posters on electrical matters who have had the potential to cost members LIVES if their advice were followed.

 

Remember all the bullshit about not earthing hulls when 240V was present?

 

Anyway I am butting out.

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

There are several thousand dead spam accounts which were locked, not deleted.

 

Richard

 

Yes, but I mean, actually go through the members list and see their post count. I'm not talking about spam bots.

 

Cap'n jack

[Chris Pink]

 

You sir, are bang out of order.

 

 

No, actually, I'm not.

 

I have an opinion, I expressed it, I have a right to express it.

 

You are 'bang out of order' to imply that I have no right to hold or express that opinion.

 

I did not ask you to agree with me.

 

I would take it one step further: There have been a number of posters on electrical matters who have had the potential to cost members LIVES if their advice were followed.

 

Remember all the bullshit about not earthing hulls when 240V was present?

 

Anyway I am butting out.

 

Go on then, money where mouth is.

 

Show me one example of an accident or death where incorrect advice has been followed.

 

To examine your example - there are two viewpoints on earthing a hull, the 'other' has been shouted out of existence, every so often I see a post from someone who follow this route (clue: portable appliance)

 

"butting out" - what is this passive aggression? "You can't argue with me because I'm gone."

[journeyperson]

Make your mind up John. If you don't see this as a form of social club, how can I make you feel excluded

 

And yes, I feel uncomfortable with people I don't know, and more comfortable with ones I do. When members join a few at a time I can get to know them and be comfortable. There are now so many members, I can't. So I don't enjoy the forum so much, so I don't participate as much. Sorry if that makes me cliquey in your eyes

 

Richard

 

You don't make me feel excluded , nobody does, I use the forum to suit myself, but clearly quite a few people do feel excluded, that's what all the greenies are about.

 

I'm not saying you are cliquey either. But there is an early members club which speaks fondly of the old days and laments the standard of debate nowadays, even whilst disagreeing with one another. I don't think most people join to debate vigorously and they are the ones who feel uncomfortable when they are taken to task by someone who loves a good argument. I'm not saying you are one of them, but maybe they are the ones you know who are still here from the early days and posting regularly.. Most people just want to find something out and share knowledge and experiences. Some people must leave feeling they have been worked over.

Edited November 29, 2011 by journeyperson

[bizzard]

There have been a number of posters on electrical matters who have had the potential to cost members money if their advice were followed. Confidently stated misinformation must be robustly challenged in order to be sure it does not gain validity as simply another point of view. In fact I seem to remember Gibbo warning of that himself from time to time.

Have no fear SirNib as my consultations on all things electrical will only last for three minutes once a month in the middle of the night,not long enough to mislead or incur unecessary expense to anyone.

[Higgs]

Don't know the mentioned expert on all things electrical. Obviously, well respected. If people feel that they can criticize the level of knowledge, being offered in his absence, then they should offer their acquired knowledge. Newcomers would appreciate that.

 

That applies to any topic.

[Albion]

I've only been here a few weeks myself, and no one has belittled me or been twatty about any of my admittedly stupid questions.

(For instance, asking the best way to move 100weights of ballast from the marina entrance to the moored boat... Rather than even thinking of moving the boat to the ballast! )

 

Infact some of the people whom I assume are being classed as the 'clique' or 'in gang' are the people who have been the most friendly and helpful to me, both on the forum and actually coming out on their own free time to help me in person or inviting me to social and boaty events.

 

And before I joined this forum in September, nobody here knew me from Adam, so if there is a clique, I must say it's not that hard to gain admittance!

 

In all honesty SC just because you haven't suffered the attacks that other newbies have doesn't mean that you have become part of the clique, if that is what it is, it just means that your postings haven't aroused the ire, real or artificial, of the main supposed culprits.

 

My feeling about this issue is that this forum has a structure rather like pack animals, let's take wolves as an example. It has a very flat triangular hierarchy structure though, as there is no single dominant male. There are a few males who always like to have the last growl (and there was only one female that, to my knowledge, ever liked the last growl in quite the same way) and who vehemently disagree with each other but sometimes unite to snarl at a newcomer to the pack who dares to question their authority. Once they have put the upstart newcomer into his place they resume snarling at each other. They tend not to attack females though, often going out of their way to be nice.

 

Just below, but only just below, these few last-growl-males are some others who, when the main protagonists are having a snap, like to join in and harry the prey 'cos it's fun and sport and that is their nature. Sometimes they can be really good wolves but when the blood lust is up they can turn quite nasty and the sight of the slavering pack pursuing their quarry can be quite unpleasant.

 

Around this level are another bunch who have real knowledge and like to share it in a non-aggressive way. They often get their knowledge across but have to choose how to do it (and often do it skilfully) so that the dominant few are prevented from snarling at them. There are also a few grumpy older wolves in this level who can have an occasional, un-called-for, snarl at anyone (anyone at all) but generally can be ignored when they do so as it only the wolf equivalent of the Grumpy Old Men program. Some of the really useful wolves have been driven from the pack and others have faded away as they can't be bothered to put up with the attitude of the upper echelon.

 

Below this level are the rest of the pack who can manage to post and learn with little interaction from the dominant top two levels as they share and learn.

 

There is often, but definitely not always, a link between number of posts made and perceived position in hierarchy of the pack.

Roger

[Keeping Up]

I am totally in agreement with the esteemed Snibble on this. And I must say that he is one of the small number of people on this forum whose electrical advice I would always accept gratefully and without question.

 

I too post much less on electrical matters than I used to. There is such a great deal of BS posted that I find increasingly that if I post anything it is either ignored for the sake of continuing the debate over whether opinion BS1 is better than opinion BS2, or else is greeted with a comment that "it was an interesting post but let's wait until an expert comes along" - although nothing much has changed there, I can recall people previously saying thanks for my opinion but they'd rather wait until Gibbo came along to answer their question.

 

I tend to post in language that I think the questioner will understand rather than deliberately try to blind him with obscure terms and irrelevant mathematics. People seem to think that I must be therefore less of an expert. Personally I don't claim to be an expert on all electrical matters but I will always state if I am posting outside my areas of expertise. Now that have retired I can no longer write the letters "MIEE, C Eng" after my name as I did for the previous 35 years which I spent in the electronics and communications industry. The experience from those years however means that I know when I am right and when I might be wrong, on this forum I find it increasingly frustrating to try and impart knowledge to those who cannot appreciate that difference.

[TheBigBean]

Surely, it is like most forums, it is just a case of trying to be polite. There is nothing wrong with disagreement just the way it is done.

[Chris Pink]

Don't know the mentioned expert on all things electrical. Obviously, well respected. If people feel that they can criticize the level of knowledge, being offered in his absence, then they should offer their acquired knowledge. Newcomers would appreciate that.

 

That applies to any topic.

 

This happens, his distributed wisdom is retailed, and his website referred to.

 

He did give a lot of his time one to one, which is no more though.

 

I don't know whether a PM if you needed him would be replied to, he is still a member and reputed to 'lurk'

[Guest]

....cue my warn status to move to 1.

 

I doubt that very much, the mods on here are not at all vindictive like that.

 

Although I'm not aware it was connected to the forum, I read that a member took her own life a few months back.

 

It wasn't AFAIK - the poster in question actually received a lot of help advice and support on here.

 

ed to amend the actual originator of this post.

Edited November 29, 2011 by MJG

[deletedaccount]

I'm amazed people are so afraid of criticism tbh.

 

Have the courage to have your thoughts critiqued, test their value and assess their worth. It's a healthy way to approach life imo, otherwise you go through it with no idea why you believe what you believe.

[casper ghost]

Well, I feel I should contribute, but I've nothing interesting to add, so that was it..

Casp'

[cotswoldsman]

Although I'm not aware it was connected to the forum, I read that a member took her own life a few months back.

 

 

 

I would suggest that your comment is completely uncalled for concerning this person. In fact I actually find it very offensive.

[carlt]

There is often, but definitely not always, a link between number of posts made and perceived position in hierarchy of the pack.

 

That may be your perception but how can you assume that is what other people feel?

 

I believe, as the "top poster" that my position is immediately below the moderators position...just like every other member of the forum.

 

I post as an individual, agreeing or disagreeing with other individuals based on what they say, not who they are or how many posts they have.

 

Perhaps my mistake is to treat everybody the same, whether they be a thousand post veteran or a ten post newbie.

[Nine of Hearts]

My feeling about this issue is that this forum has a structure rather like pack animals, let's take wolves as an example.

 

I used to behave like this, I'll admit, but I'm alright nowwwwwwwwwww!

 

(scuttles back under bridge)

[soldthehouse]

I think that a lot of the early members have either withdrawn all together, or reduced their involvement, and there are no doubt many reasons for that. I certainly feel that I get involved far less with some threads than I might have done in the past.

 

I suspect that like a number of long standing members, I have probably said all I want to say on some subjects so many times, that I simply cannot be bothered any more. However, there are some issues which still encourage me back onto my high horse, but I am not sure that many people really welcome my intervention these days. I also get a bit annoyed when a newcomer appears and ridicules an experienced and knowledgeable member's contribution, which usualy stimulates one response from me and then silence on whilst the arguement developes.

 

Like you, I have got to know a lot of people through the forum, and I have to say that whilst some go back a long way, several are comparatively new members. I know that you have managed to attend quite a few banters, but I have only attended two, and from those very few people contribute any more, and I do not have any contact with them, so my experience differs from yours in that respect.

 

I am wittering on, and no one will read it, so I will finish. I do know that my overwordy contributions have attained a reputation for killing a thread stone dead, so I apologise to Snibble (I have never acknowledged his Knighthood!) in advance if I achieve the same with this thread.

I read it all, a thing I rarely do [ not your posts in particular, ] you make many salient points as always dont doubt your value as a contributor

[Rebotco]

I am genuinely surprised, (and that's being completely honest, not condescending), that your post has already achieved 10 positive "greenie votes".

 

I also genuinely can simply not agree with your first sentence, but have to acknowledge that such levels of support for views like you express must mean that many people think they have validity.

 

The problem is that it really still doesn't leave me knowing if most of your ten supporters would consider me part of the "hardcore" or not, or whether I am regularly dishing out "a lot that is not wanted".

 

Perhaps my failure to know for certain whether I am one of the bad boys is simply proving the "lack of social skills" you talk about, though if I were personally being accused of "repulsive rantings", I would certainly not be one to let it go without trying to understand why, and defend my position.

 

Such views leave me unsure what to do really, or whether I need to consider how I come across, but clearly I have to accept that people like yourself feel that plenty is wrong, (though presumably not enough so to walk away from the forum immediately.

 

Personally, though, I still think most of the worst "spat" threads have deliberately started and fuelled by some of the newest user-names on the board. Whether all of them are genuinely "new users", or whether some are old hands coming back under an "alter-ego" just to see what they can stir up, I am sometimes not sure!

 

I too am surprised at 10 "greenies" as I am not sure what they are. From the context, I imagine they are sort of unripe "Brownie Points"? Anyway they seem to be good things to have, so thank you to those who have made a kind donation.

 

Back to your question - NO, I certainly wouldn't think anyone considers you one of "the bad boys" as you put it. As far as I can remember I have always found your posts very helpful, balanced and informative. Never rude or disrespectful. Keep'em coming I say.

 

One aspect of this subject that I think is relvant is the natural differences observed in different areas of the country. I have found that northeners tend to be much more forthright in expressing themselves, and southeners much more reserved. So what is normal to one community can be seen as "rude" or "weak" to the other. Likewise with different upbringing - one family is used to being loud and direct, another quiet and more diplomatic. So one group behaving in its normal way cannot understand why the other takes offence at their conversation. Of course its not as black and white as that, with many shades of grey in between, but you get my drift. I do think that is often at the root of many arguments that descend into abuse, that we see here and, I understand, on other forum type sites. Add to this, the spoken word has the benefit of expression and tone to help convey your intended meaning, which is lacking in the written word, its perhaps not surprising that misunderstandings occur.

In view of all this, perhaps we are not too bad here after all! We just suffer from being normal.

 

Brian

[mayalld]

That may be your perception but how can you assume that is what other people feel?

 

I believe, as the "top poster" that my position is immediately below the moderators position...just like every other member of the forum.

 

I post as an individual, agreeing or disagreeing with other individuals based on what they say, not who they are or how many posts they have.

 

Perhaps my mistake is to treat everybody the same, whether they be a thousand post veteran or a ten post newbie.

 

Whilst I always attempt to follow that same principle, I must confess that human nature does tend to cloud the judgement as to how the post of any prolific poster is viewed.

 

For some posters who have a record of either talking sense or of making a cogent argument for the nonsense they believe, this may start them at an advantage, such that if they talk crap on this occasion, I might read it 3 times before deciding it really is crap. For other posters, who have a record of drivel, they may start from a presumption of "more drivel", but for the new poster, there can be no assumption, and the post is judged entirely on its merits.

 

In dealing with a new poster who has just spouted errant nonsense, it is always best to politely tell them why it is wrong, but when faced with somebody who arrives determined to be right (even when they aren't), or expecting a god-given right to promote their view unquestioned, and getting arsey about it, I always say that politeness is a two way street, and that if you aren't prepared to discuss your views, a discussion forum isn't really the place for you.

[Higgs]

I'm amazed people are so afraid of criticism tbh.

 

Have the courage to have your thoughts critiqued, test their value and assess their worth. It's a healthy way to approach life imo, otherwise you go through it with no idea why you believe what you believe.

 

 

Criticism is ok, followed by an explaination. Otherwise it can be difficult to know the exact nature of the criticism. Ambiguities are all too easy when not standing face to face.

 

Since joining, I am having to think more about what I'm writing and learning as I go. Not always successful, but......, I live in hope.

[alan_fincher]

I would suggest that your comment is completely uncalled for concerning this person. In fact I actually find it very offensive.

I totally agree, John.

 

There is not, I would suggest, a single jot of evidence that the sad death of a previous poster had any connection to this, or any of the other Internet forums she frequented.

 

In fact there is every evidence that on the whole this forum strongly supported her in her attempts to start her dreamt for life afloat.

 

An outrageous remark, that should have been left unsaid, and far more hurtful and offensive in my view than much of what is being complained about here.