Maximum Persons on a PRIVATE Boat

[David Schweizer]

I'm fairly sure that the Board of Trade was defunct (apart from Prezza awarding himself the title of 'President of the Board of Trade', IIRC ) before Boatmasters Licences came in. The Board of Trade requirement was for the boat to be inspected and certified if it was to carry more than 12 passengers. In my youth I regularly steered a 48-seat passenger boat, the boat was inspected every year but there was never any question of any of the crew being 'inspected'. An initially optional steerer's certificate was just starting to come in at the end of my involvement.

 

Tim

 

Edit - I seem to remember that in those early stages it was BW who started the 'Boatmasters Licence' or whatever it was called then, probably about the same time as the original 'Certificate of Compliance' (now replaced by the Boat Safety Certificate).

You may well be correct, My Original licence was actually issued by the Department of Transport, although I have always known it as a "Board of Trade" licence. As my boating experience goes back to the 1960's and was on a Community boat, Perhaps I am confusing it with the Annual Inspections which were carried out under the aegis of the Board of Trade.

[Chertsey]

The figure of 12 persons being quoted probably comes from the old Board of Trade Regulations which required the Master of any inland vessel to possess a Boatmaster's Licence, relevant to the water it was travelling on, if there were more than 12 people on the vessel excluding a maximum of two operational crewmembers.

 

It has always been my understanding that the old B.o.T.regulations covered any craft irrespective of whether it was operating commercially or not, and irrespective of whether any fees were involved. However, the current MCA regulations introduced in 2007 only apply to commercial craft. Paragraph 3.5 of the new regulations specifically excludes the Master of any pleasure vessel or hire craft being used as a pleasure vessel from being required to comply with the regulations.

 

So in answer to the OP it would appear that there is no legal maximum applicable to a private vessel, however I suspect that if an accident did occur and the case was tested in Court, any prosecuting Barrister, would seek to use the commercial regulations a a guide for good practice.

But do not the rules quoted by Tam and Di make it plain that if a vessel is carrying more than 12 passengers, it de facto comes under the MCA rules?

 

An interesting question is how many crew would be considered reasonable, as this is not specified. Presumably it would depend on the size and type of boat, services being offered (are caterers part of the crew, for example) and the kind of waterway (whether lock operators are needed).

[Nickhlx]

But do not the rules quoted by Tam and Di make it plain that if a vessel is carrying more than 12 passengers, it de facto comes under the MCA rules?

 

An interesting question is how many crew would be considered reasonable, as this is not specified. Presumably it would depend on the size and type of boat, services being offered (are caterers part of the crew, for example) and the kind of waterway (whether lock operators are needed).

 

Surely any vessel, especially if carrying more than the driver / captain / pilot there is a person in charge and responsible ? This extends to not only his own safety but also that of the people he is also carrying. A car driver is responsible for the e.g. tyres on the car he is driving being legal and would be prosecuted if not ( and caught).

 

Where I question the difference lies with a boat, is that if someone has "under-estimated" the vessels carrying abilities, perhaps for ease of getting the certification. Six people on a 62' narrowboat weighing around 20 tons, and having exit points at front, middle and rear of the boat, does seem to be "under-estimated" to me. I am not suggesting that it is even suitable and safe for as many as 12-14, but 8 does seem reasonable, especially as there is seating capacity for at least eight in comfort.

 

Nick

[cereal tiller]

That is where we move away from hard and fast rules to interpretation.

 

The rule is 12 + Crew.

 

The MCA, when asked, seem to be fairly consistent that they will accept a crew of 3 people.

 

My view, based on that information;

 

1) 13 people is clearly OK, because at least 1 will be involved with crewing the boat.

2) 14/15 people will probably be OK, to the extent that unless something goes wrong, you aren't going to be up in front of the beak for excess passengers. If something does go wrong, you might be asked which of the people on board were crew, and which passengers, and if it is apparent that you had the steerer and 14 passengers you might have a problem.

3) 16 or more could lead to the MCA prosecuting you. You might be OK, if you can convince a judge that 4 or more of those on board were crew.

 

 

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about passenger limits.

 

ANY boat carrying more than 12 people has to be cerified by the MCA.

 

if the boat has CREW added to that number,at least on of those crew must hold a BOATMASTERS LICENCE.

 

any crew on that vessel must be paid employees of the company/organisation that holds the MCA certification.

 

the skipper and crew undergo compulsory training procedures such as man overboard,vessel grounding and fire pump use.

 

the skipper has to have a medical exam every 5 years.

 

 

the boat will be equipped with VHF radio and liferafts and first aid kit,the skipper will posess a first aid certificate.

 

each time the vessel leaves a mooring,the passenger numbers are recorded and relayed to a person who is in charge of operations.

 

the ops. person must be on standby whenever the vessel(S) are carrying passengers.

 

 

as soon as any boat has more than 12 persons aboard it is subject to MCA regs.private,hire or otherwise.

[Dalesman]

You may well be correct, My Original licence was actually issued by the Department of Transport, although I have always known it as a "Board of Trade" licence. As my boating experience goes back to the 1960's and was on a Community boat, Perhaps I am confusing it with the Annual Inspections which were carried out under the aegis of the Board of Trade.

The need for the Boatmaster's Licence was the result of the sinking of the Marchioness on the River Thames in 1989, prior to this the skippers of passenger boats operating on the canals did not require any licence, although many held the old Boatman's Licence but this was not mandatory.However this changed in 1993 when the compulsory Boatmaster's Licence was brought in with three different grades ie: Grade 1, 2,and 3.In 1994 much discussion took place with the MCA about the requirements for canal boats and the Grade 3 Licence was amended to reflect the vast difference between boats operating on the shallow canals and those working on rivers like the Thames.All this was again changed with the new Boatmaster's Licence with Tier I and Tier II and a requirement to have First Aid,Firefighting, and Water Safety training,things have changed a lot since 1989.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Dalesman

[Naughty Cal]

Ours is 62' and it states on the plate "Max 6 persons"

 

Nick

 

Our 25ft cruiser is rated Cat C with "Max 6 persons". We have had more people aboard but mostly whilst moored up and very rarely whilst underway. We certainly wouldnt carry more than six if we were going anywhere to get the boat up to speed and it is doubtful wether she would actually plane with more than six onboard anyway.

[mayalld]

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about passenger limits.

 

ANY boat carrying more than 12 people has to be cerified by the MCA.

 

if the boat has CREW added to that number,at least on of those crew must hold a BOATMASTERS LICENCE.

 

 

Not according to the MCA

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/pleasure_craft_information_packdec07-2.pdf

 

Note - If more than 12 passengers are carried, irrespective of whether payment is made,

the vessel is a "passenger ship" under the Merchant Shipping Regulations. A passenger

may be considered as anyone onboard not involved with the running of the vessel.

 

Edited November 25, 2011 by mayalld

[Nickhlx]

Our 25ft cruiser is rated Cat C with "Max 6 persons". We have had more people aboard but mostly whilst moored up and very rarely whilst underway. We certainly wouldnt carry more than six if we were going anywhere to get the boat up to speed and it is doubtful wether she would actually plane with more than six onboard anyway.

 

Ours doesn't even plane with one on board but when I get the turbo fixed I am hoping it might ...

 

Nick

Edited November 25, 2011 by Nickhlx

[cereal tiller]

Not according to the MCA

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/pleasure_craft_information_packdec07-2.pdf

 

Note - If more than 12 passengers are carried, irrespective of whether payment is made,

the vessel is a “passenger ship” under the Merchant Shipping Regulations. A passenger

may be considered as anyone onboard not involved with the running of the vessel.

 

I pressed the link,says page not found.

 

all the upper thames SMALL trip boats are limited to 12 passengers,

 

any trip boat carrying a greater number than 12 is subject to a different classification,as i stated.

 

have not driven a passenger boat for 6 years,so my info. may be out of date.

 

as you are surely aware ,i would not disagree with you dave,the ensuing exchange may consume more of my life span than i wish to dispose of.

 

by the way in that dog thread ,you forgot to mention that you used to own a TASTY DRAGON,,,,

[mayalld]

I pressed the link,says page not found.

 

all the upper thames SMALL trip boats are limited to 12 passengers,

 

any trip boat carrying a greater number than 12 is subject to a different classification,as i stated.

 

have not driven a passenger boat for 6 years,so my info. may be out of date.

 

as you are surely aware ,i would not disagree with you dave,the ensuing exchange may consume more of my life span than i wish to dispose of.

 

by the way in that dog thread ,you forgot to mention that you used to own a TASTY DRAGON,,,,

 

No idea why the link didn't work, but it does now.

[Dalesman]

all the upper thames SMALL trip boats are limited to 12 passengers,

 

any trip boat carrying a greater number than 12 is subject to a different classification,as i stated.

 

It is a great pity that trip boats carrying only 12 passengers do not have to comply with the Class V regulations, there should be a level playing field for ALL passemger boats no matter what size they are.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Dalesman

[WotEver]

No idea why the link didn't work, but it does now.

It doesn't work for me either.

 

But this one does.

 

Tony

[Chertsey]

 

 

as soon as any boat has more than 12 persons aboard it is subject to MCA regs.private,hire or otherwise.

Twelve persons, or twelve passengers? If you are going to insist that it is the former, then you are accusing a lot of community boats of operating illegally.

[cereal tiller]

Twelve persons, or twelve passengers? If you are going to insist that it is the former, then you are accusing a lot of community boats of operating illegally.

Passengers

[Nose Miner]

What raised my eyebrows about that report was why was that chap singled out as being responsible? It wasn't his boat, or his party, from what I can gather and it makes no mention of why in particular he was to blame. Most odd.

It wasn't his boat, but he had set himself up as an "experienced" boater and in light of the inexperience of the owners had established himself as being in charge of the boat on that particular trip, I think as a favour to the owner.

[ditchcrawler]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/4513659.stm

 

Tim

Thanks Tim a very sad case indeed.

[ditchcrawler]

Not according to the MCA

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/pleasure_craft_information_packdec07-2.pdf

 

Note - If more than 12 passengers are carried, irrespective of whether payment is made,

the vessel is a "passenger ship" under the Merchant Shipping Regulations. A passenger

may be considered as anyone onboard not involved with the running of the vessel.

 

Pity you left this bit off which states a pleasure boat is covered under these regs.

On a case by case basis, the local Marine Office may consider the

granting of an exemption from the applicable Passenger Ship Regulations for a pleasure

vessel carrying more than 12 passengers, on an occasional basis

[Tam & Di]

Pity you left this bit off which states a pleasure boat is covered under these regs.

On a case by case basis, the local Marine Office may consider the

granting of an exemption from the applicable Passenger Ship Regulations for a pleasure

vessel carrying more than 12 passengers, on an occasional basis

 

I'm fairly sure you would have to obtain the exemption before you did the deed.

[jonathanA]

The maximum number that you can carry is set out in the RCD,and it is upto the builder to carry out a healing test with the maximum number of persons and their baggage plus stores, and the fuel and water tanks full.It will be hard for a 32 feet boat to pass a heeling test with more than 10 persons aboard. The MCA rule for a persons weight is 75KG.

Hire boat heeling test:

Think I recognise that hire boat base ... and with the standard of their usual charters they'd need to do the healing (or is it heeling) test.... I've seen their hire boats making 4mph loaded like that !

[Dalesman]

Think I recognise that hire boat base ... and with the standard of their usual charters they'd need to do the healing (or is it heeling) test.... I've seen their hire boats making 4mph loaded like that !

Not only their boats but most of the day boats you see on the canal, but at least they do one,unlike some I could name.

[Guest]

Think I recognise that hire boat base ... and with the standard of their usual charters they'd need to do the healing (or is it heeling) test.... I've seen their hire boats making 4mph loaded like that !

 

 

Silsden Boats

[Alan Saunders]

Without re-reading the small print I think my boat insurance refers to "the number of persons the vessel was designed for"? As others have said, lacking any test data or rating plate, the insurer is likely to interpret this as the number of berths, whatever the status or weight of the persons. e.g. A 30' boat with six berths may seat twelve but a day-boat with no berths may be considered to be designed for twelve.

 

I guess the reasoning for regulations allowing two or three crew is that they may be considered 'sensible' to the needs of safety. 'Passengers', especially inebriated passengers, may consider it 'fun' to organise a rythmic mass movement from side-to-side to induce an exceptional roll. e.g. My teenagers thought this was 'fun' but were subsequently disconcerted by harmless waves (ripples) in Bristol and Portsmouth Harbours.

 

Alan

[benfordboy]

Following this thread , I recall a terrible tragedy that involved either a Norman 20 or 23 (Cant remember which) but it was around the time we bought our boat so 2003 ?

 

The boat capsized after a member fell overboard if I remember correctly leading to one of the passengers drowning aboard. I think there was around 15 people aboard.

 

Absolute madness , Terrible for the family of the lost crew , but 15 on a small cruiser ? I certainly wouldnt have half of that aboard mine

[Tim Lewis]

Following this thread , I recall a terrible tragedy that involved either a Norman 20 or 23 (Cant remember which) but it was around the time we bought our boat so 2003 ?

 

The boat capsized after a member fell overboard if I remember correctly leading to one of the passengers drowning aboard. I think there was around 15 people aboard.

 

Absolute madness , Terrible for the family of the lost crew , but 15 on a small cruiser ? I certainly wouldnt have half of that aboard mine

 

Link from post #44

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...rcs/4513659.stm

 

Tim

[Bobbin]

In respect of CapriFool's request not to derail another thread......

 

I'm starting another.

 

Is there a legal limit on the number of people who can be on board a private canal or river boat in the UK ?

 

Some have already claimed the off-quoted 12 number that definitely applies to commercial craft.

 

But I can't quickly turn up the references that establish a limit if it is not a hire boat or other commercial craft.

 

So can someone please link to actual legislation that places a limit on private craft ?

 

Note:

 

I realise an insurer may place a limit, but that is obviously not the same as a universal limit applying to all private boats.

 

Yesterday I had 4 people on my 30 ft Nb and a Great Dane, the people were fine but the dog would take some getting used to!!!!It took her 2 seconds to find my freshly baked biscuits. Arrrrrrr......well I'm on a diet any way.