Minimum age of steerer

[wrigglefingers]

I'm trying to get insurance for Ellen and myself for residential use of a narrowboat. I'm amazed that, according to two companies, Ellen cannot steer the boat on her own without an adult onboard and actively supervising; this includes me leaping off the boat to work the locks or even moor. Nor can I leave her onboard the boat at any time on her own. Apparently it breaks BW regulations they claim, but both have mentioned teenage parties and out-of-control teens. This has had a significant difference to the premiums which range from £543 down to £161 (from the company Newton Crum passed my enquiry on to as they wouldn't quote at all).

 

Ellen is 17 and a qualified inland helm under the RYA scheme. Has anybody else heard of this?

 

Jill

[bottle]

Hi Jill

 

I am sure you told them that Ellen is qualified.

 

You could ask them to quote the regulation (I cannot find it but I cannot find find any of the regulations at the moment. Anybody got a link?)

[Guest]

I'm trying to get insurance for Ellen and myself for residential use of a narrowboat. I'm amazed that, according to two companies, Ellen cannot steer the boat on her own without an adult onboard and actively supervising; this includes me leaping off the boat to work the locks or even moor. Nor can I leave her onboard the boat at any time on her own. Apparently it breaks BW regulations they claim, but both have mentioned teenage parties and out-of-control teens. This has had a significant difference to the premiums which range from £543 down to £161 (from the company Newton Crum passed my enquiry on to as they wouldn't quote at all).

 

Ellen is 17 and a qualified inland helm under the RYA scheme. Has anybody else heard of this?

 

Jill

I've nevr heard of any of that. We have broken every rule in that case.

[Paul Evans]

I have never heard of any "legal" age restriction on boat steerers. Some hire companies refuse to hire boats to groups of people all under the age of 21 or to same sex groups but that is not because of any by-law. Rather, they have had bad experiences with some such groups in the past and prefer to protect their boats and reputation. No doubt some commercial and charity operations have age restrictions but, again, that would be for their own reasons and not because a by-law imposes one.

 

The boat licence conditions do not refer to any age limits simply saying "4.2 You must comply with navigation rules, relevant Acts, Bye-Laws and Regulations and follow our lawful directions, spoken or written (including signs)." I have not been able to find a copy of the General Canal By-laws on the web but I'm sure British Waterways could point you in the right direction. (Where's Eugene?).

 

Clearly, a boat should not be left in the charge of a young, inexperienced, person but your daughter has a qualification that many experienced boaters (including me) do not have. I suggest you ask BW directly if their by-laws impose an age restriction and, assuming they don't, wave the response at your insurance broker. If the broker does not relent, find another!

[anhar]

Hello Jill

 

Whether or not it's in the regs. may not be the whole point as far as your premium is concerned. Insurers have their own way of deciding premiums which have nothing to do with other authorities' laws or regulations. With cars for example, as I'm sure you'll know, young people pay enormously loaded premiums compared to those of us in our farties because of the far higher claim rate. Nothing to do with any laws or regs.

 

Thus if as seems probable from other readers' comments there may be no such BW reg., the insurer may well be loading your premium simply because of what they perceive to be a higher risk with Ellen on board though of course they shouldn't then blame this on some non existent reg., rather they should be telling you the truth that it's just a business decision.

 

I advise that you ring round the brokers that advertise in the canal mags to find the best premium. If you do that, don't compare the cost alone, examine the cover that you are getting as well in order to make a valid comparison.

 

regards

Steve

[DHutch]

My (compleately unqualifyed) brother (who has just turned 13 today) has been helming Emilyanne for several years, and she's consderable hard to helm than you average boat (due to the whole beeing steam/small rudder/wheel stearing thing)

 

She (Ellen) is clearly going to be fine at helming the boat, i have been for years, and the only RYA qualfication i have is an (old) leval3 sailing cert!

- My advise, just wait till your round the first bend....

 

 

 

Daniel

[Sam]

Im always steering without supervision and on the boat by myself if they are wal;king or something and im 15. (and i can steer v well etc and know what to do if any comes up with any comments )

[wrigglefingers]

Thanks for your thoughts guys, I didn't think there was anything about minmum age in the BW regs but I guessed I might have missed it. I suppose the insurance companies can make their own decisions with regard to Ellen but it doesn't engender confidence when one proposal came through with her name given as Alan ......... and that was in response to an email; although the premium did came down by £235 when I rang them to explain!

 

I've now got five proposals (I collected the post when I bought the new Porta Potti; there's no end to the excitement in my life!) and I'm going to sit down and figure it out with a nice cup of tea. I agree that cheapest isn't best, Steve, so I'll be viewing this bundle with some scepticism. Michael Stimpson's looks best on first glance, and it doesn't say I can't leave her on board when I disappear off to morris practice. I couldn't imagine her face when I say "just abandon your AS homework in front of this lovely warm stove, love, and spend 2 1/2 hours in a freezing hall while I play concertina for some clog dancers!".

 

Regards, Jill

 

PS Happy Birthday to Dan's little brother!

Edited March 5, 2006 by wrigglefingers

[Keeping Up]

Our two kids started quite young. They could both steer pretty well by the time they were 6, but they weren't left unsupervised until they were about 9. These were the earliest pics I could find.

 

 

 

Allan

[Guest]

If kids are tall enough to see over the cabin, then they are old enough to steer. Not sure our insurance would agree though.

[Webchem]

Our two kids started quite young. They could both steer pretty well by the time they were 6, but they weren't left unsupervised until they were about 9. These were the earliest pics I could find.

 

 

 

Allan

 

What fantastic piccies Allan! Looking at the URL I take it they are from 1988.

 

I remember having a haircut like that (what were my parents thinking)?

 

[Keeping Up]

What fantastic piccies Allan! Looking at the URL I take it they are from 1988.

 

I remember having a haircut like that (what were my parents thinking)?

 

The first one is from 1988 when our son was 8 (on our own boat Thistle, I'm busy compiling the web pages of our trips on her 1987-91) and I think the other is from 3 or 4 years earlier on a Wyvern hire-boat when our daughter was just a little younger.

 

Yes even I had a haircut like that once - but now I've got so little hair left I'd be grateful if it was in any recognisable style (when I go to the barber's they charge me a search fee)

 

Allan

[tony collins]

 

 

Ellen is 17 and a qualified inland helm under the RYA scheme. Has anybody else heard of this?

 

Jill

 

Never heard of this at all. We went on the BCN challenge in 1999, the crew consisted of myself at the time late fifties, a workmate (late forties) and his son (then 7years) The lad soon picked up the knack of steering although throttle control was in adult hands, until towards the end of the event he was trusted enough to bring the boat alone up the Gower branch flight staircase on his own whilst we watched (Very closely I might add) and worked the locks.

I am sure that many of us have seen Andrew Burge handling a 70 footer (with a Bolinder engine!) at Historic Boat gatherings for at least fifteen years and he is still a young man. I seem to remember he was about 13 when I first saw him.

 

Ellen seems eminently qualified to handle the boat whilst you work the locks etc.

 

Tony

[DHutch]

I am sure that many of us have seen Andrew Burge handling a 70 footer (with a Bolinder engine!) at Historic Boat gatherings for at least fifteen years and he is still a young man. I seem to remember he was about 13 when I first saw him.

Yeah, and last time i went to malpas steam rally next ot the steam rollers they had signs stating "no one under the age of 16 shall be left in sole control of any roller with a payload of over 1/4 of a ton" (ie, the fullsize ones, rather than the 5th minatues)

- This rule was deffonatly being be faunted on occation.

- There where alot of kids younger than me driving 5/6 ton rollers around amount the general public to get to the tap for water (most of the time they just sit steamed up, ticking over out of gear)

- The've done it for years, and know what there doing. Age has less to do with compitance than a lot of people make out.

 

 

Daniel

Edited March 7, 2006 by dhutch

[Richard Bustens]

I think the wording says it all "Sole controle" meaning unsupervised controle is not alowed, now just how far from the boat you need to be before you are not classed as being in supervision i do not know, perhaps you need to be onboard the boat .

[enigma]

The Royal Yachting Association's minimum age for attending a Helmsman's Course is 12 years. Up to the age of 16, youths must be supervised by an adult.

 

The responsibility of supervision would be decided by the insurance company or a judge in the event of an incident.

 

Rod Fox

Edited March 7, 2006 by enigma

[DHutch]

I think the wording says it all "Sole controle" meaning unsupervised controle is not alowed...

Yes indeed. (and yeah, i now realise it sole, not soul. lol)

 

 

Daniel

[Sir Nibble]

This does demonstrate the folly of arbitrary rules, 17 year old qualified helmsman? no way, to much risk. 18 Year old first timer? (possibly as drunk as a skunk) sure, go ahead.

[wrigglefingers]

Alan,

 

Lovely kids; are they still nice?

 

Insurance is sorted (touch wood) and the cheque's in the post. We chose the policy with no mention of lower age limit. I did ring to check and the broker just said "minimum age limit? is she over twelve?" As he pointed out, she'll be in charge of a WMD without adult supervision soon enough. He just asked that she avoid scraping the paintwork as "it tends to upset the boat owner".

 

Jill

 

Just five days to go and we're floating again (beyond excitement now).

[Guest st170dw]

Alan,

 

Lovely kids; are they still nice?

 

Insurance is sorted (touch wood) and the cheque's in the post. We chose the policy with no mention of lower age limit. I did ring to check and the broker just said "minimum age limit? is she over twelve?" As he pointed out, she'll be in charge of a WMD without adult supervision soon enough. He just asked that she avoid scraping the paintwork as "it tends to upset the boat owner".

 

Jill

 

Just five days to go and we're floating again (beyond excitement now).

 

Good grief a human in the insurance business - surely not!

 

Good luck (odds on it will be you who scrapes the paint first )

 

Dave

[Keeping Up]

Alan,

 

Lovely kids; are they still nice?

 

Insurance is sorted (touch wood) and the cheque's in the post. We chose the policy with no mention of lower age limit. I did ring to check and the broker just said "minimum age limit? is she over twelve?" As he pointed out, she'll be in charge of a WMD without adult supervision soon enough. He just asked that she avoid scraping the paintwork as "it tends to upset the boat owner".

 

Jill

 

Just five days to go and we're floating again (beyond excitement now).

Hi Jill,

 

Yes they're both still great kids (mid 20's now of course). I am SUCH a proud Dad (not to mention Grandad).

 

Don't worry about scratches on the paintwork. A boat without scratches is a boat that hasn't been used properly. Just think of it as I do - when the boat next gets painted, the first stage of preparation will be to remove the old paint. You're just saving time and effort at that stage by doing some of the removal a bit early.

 

We'll all be holding our breath for you in 5 days time (and waiting to see the first pictures)

 

Allan

[kingofthecut]

I am sure that many of us have seen Andrew Burge handling a 70 footer (with a Bolinder engine!) at Historic Boat gatherings for at least fifteen years and he is still a young man. I seem to remember he was about 13 when I first saw him.

 

Was busier 'handling a 70 footer (with a Bolinder engine!)' loaded than at "Historic Boat gatherings"! Let the kids drink wine at dinner, Steer the boat(s), use the power tools. Give them some pride and say they can do, not that they can't.

 

Now I have my boy "http://www.joshers.info/showpicture.php?id=31"

[Lady Muck]

If kids are tall enough to see over the cabin, then they are old enough to steer. Not sure our insurance would agree though.

 

My partner and I are both Pirate Club Volunteers - the Pirate Club has been teaching kids to drive boats since it was founded. Noone (including our insurers) has stopped us yet!

 

What kind of a trip would it be, if we couldn't let the kids steer?

[enigma]

The minimum age for a professional skippers licence (Boatmaster) is 17 years.

The RYA say youths should be supervised by an adult until 16 years.

Its up to you and the insurance company.

 

enigma

[Nickhlx]

On two holidays last year, each of a week, we let / positively encouraged our two ( daughter, aged 15 and son - 13) to take complete control ( under supervision at first ) - within a few hours they were entirely comfortable with steering and throttle control and so was I - a few more hours and they were doing everything, including locks, so much so that I was happy to take a shower whilst under way - all incident free... and this was on a 65 footer !

 

I even got chastised for not letting them do a turn at a winding point which included a river joining the canal a few tens of feet upstream, providing a significant extra flow, but it merely broadsided around, like a car doing a handbrake turn on ice - good feeling that was !

 

Nick

Edited February 22, 2008 by Nickhlx