anhar

Why bother to post if you can't refrain from personal abuse? Seems to me you don't like sensible arguments and have to resort to this kind of stuff. You made a number of highly inaccurate and disturbing racial remarks about not being able to return stuff to a country of origin, about Poles of whom you clearly know very little and so on, even about Polish boats of which you also clearly know very little. I and others were merely trying to show you why you may be wrong. Responding with a stream of abuse is not a decent way to act here. I can do verbal abuse too, you don't have a monopoly on it, but what is the point of my responding in kind to you? If you wish to argue, do so in a reasonable manner, don't abuse others just because you don't like their views. Creating ill feeling with abuse is bad for the board and it's bad for relations with other boaters. I've even helped you before on some technical matter I think. How about lightening up and forgetting all the bad mouthing you've given me? regards Steve

I didn't have to retype from the net, I happen to know about Chopin and Copernicus. Being offensive merely accentuates your ignorance of these things. Instead of being offensive how about trying to learn a little? If you don't want to learn, that's your right, but boasting about ignorance seems an odd way to proceed. And yes where you don't know something then I think it's acceptable to retype into your own words because then you have input something into it, small but something. But a complete paste job as you did should be credited, notwithstanding that you copied it from someone who did the same. By failing to mention originally that you copied it, two possibilities emerge. Either you didn't think to mention the fact, which wouldn't matter, or you deliberately tried to pass it off as your own, which is underhand and does matter I think. Which one is correct I can't know. Others have answered your assertion that you can't take the boat back to Poland if there are problems. Almost every product we buy these days is manufactured abroad, frequently in China. But it not required in the event of problems that you return it to the country of manufacture. The very fact that you even consider that possibility reveals a quite amazing lack of knowledge of these things. My point is that there is nothing wrong with ignorance provided people are willing to learn. What is wrong is that you wish to perpetuate your lack of knowledge it instead of being willing to remedy it. When someone points out that you don't actually have to return foreign goods to their country of origin in case of trouble, your answer shouldn't be blustering and offensive as though that makes you right, it never can. Instead, how about a polite thanks mate, I didn't realise that. regards Steve

I don't believe you wrote that yourself Maverick. It sounds plagiarised to me so I'd guesss that you pasted it from some website. I can tell from the style. Nothing wrong with pasting in but to avoid the charge of plagiarisation you should in fairness credit the source. By not doing so you create the impression that you wrote it but you didn't. Oh and regarding the Poles, they have made some impression on the world in addition to the aforementioned wartime activites. Frederic Chopin the composer for example, and Copernicus, the fifteenth century astronomer first to make a proper scientific case for the earth and planets moving round the sun and not the other way round. Regarding boats, the Aqualine range as imported from Poland by New Boat Co. are excellent boats and great value for money. I've been on a couple and the fitout and finish internally and externally is first class, competing well with even the best made here. When price is taken into account, there is no way that a boat of comparable quality of materials and workmanship etc. could be made here for similar money. regards Steve

Not personally catweasel no. I've got a Victron which so far has given sterling service. I mean it hasn't given Sterling service. regards Steve

Sterling equipment has more problems. My evidence is the two references I gave earlier. Note that individual experiences, unless one sees a large number which is unlikely, are of very little use in assessing the quality of an item. It is only over large numbers that a fair opinion can be obtained. Some people because they are in the trade as a builder or whatever are in a position to view a number of items and therefore their view is worth a lot more than individual cases. If someone who has experience with a number of items tells that Brand X is better than Brand Y because of fewer failures and better company service, then I'm inclined to take their word for it. If two such people tell me this then I'm definitely going to listen. To me it's just good business and I was in business most of my life. Too many people though are ruled by their wallets and penny pinch, or alternatively are ruled by emotion. Me, I don't care, I just want the best, period. If Sterling had the rep. of Victron or Mastervolt I gladly would have bought their kit. This isn't personal at least it's not for me though others seem to take it so, for me it's just practical. I want the least difficulties with my boating, even if I have to pay a few hundred more, irrelevant on a new build. Which brand is likely to give me the least problem and if perchance there is something awry then which is likely to offer the best service? No contest. Whenever something is criticised here, or praised, we always see personal responses attempting to prove the opposite. In fact they don't prove the point either way because they are numerically too limited to draw any hard conclusions. I can show you readers here who've had very bad experience with Sterling. In practice even the worst brands will have some good examples. Even the best brands will have some poor examples. But the mark of good quality is that a company has the least incidence of faulty products and then deals promptly and fairly with any complaints or enquiries that do arise. regards Steve

Nice Les. She's looking really good. Hope they sort out the ballast problem satisfactorily for you. regards Stev

There's no money in it, that's the problem.

It's a cultural thing too. The lively Mediterranean temperament is at odds with that of Northern Europeans. It's the climate so I would refer to Greeks, Croatians and Italians for example as Southern Europeans. I'd say Britain Germany Poland and Scandi etc. are Northern by this measure. France interestingly is both, having both southern and northern aspects. But where is the dividing line? Where you can run around in a tee shirt in say February. Which places Newcastle upon Tyne firmly around Corfu. regards Steve

Indeed Chris. Not quite the same thing but I am minded of the expression "Eastern Europe" which was a political, not a geographical distinction, dating from the old Iron Curtain communist days. I had a friend some years back, a political refugee in the UK from Prague in what was then communist Czechoslovakia. Whenever he was described as being from Eastern Europe he used to point out that Prague is actually further west than Vienna which was in what was known as Western Europe, meaning not geography but the non commie part. Both the Czech Republic and Austria are probably best described these days as Central Europe, which is the locational definition my friend preferred back then, but such expressions are rarely precise. Oddly perhaps, the east west distinction created by the Iron Curtain was much more precise than a geo. east west distinction. These things are often relative. It's likely that Greeks, say, view Britain Germany and Poland as Northern Europe, notwithstanding that you can go even further north into Scandi. regards Steve

That's fine magnet but I mentioned a mains clock radio simply as an example of something commonplace that presumably doesn't work with msw inverters. I wasn't intending it to be an exhaustive list of things that won't run on msw. Many things are available in 12v, even a 'wave, but they mostly cost a huge amount more than mains appliances and moreover, without the large range and easy availability of the latter. One can do without a mains inverter altogether and have 12v stuff only, a large number of boats do, maybe the majority, but running 12v only isn't what this thread is about. Pav wants an inverter, we are discussing the type, not whether he should have one or not. As an amusing aside, a couple years ago when I first joined this forum upon deciding to have me a boat built, I asked about inverters. At the time I knew dick about them, having no background in boats at all. When asking about makes and types etc. a regular reader asked in the thread why I wanted one at all, he'd been boating for a 100 years and never felt the need for such a device and so on. I leave readers to guess who that might be. regards Steve

This argument seems to arise regularly Chris. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I confirm having no technical knowledge. But I don't need it. Bottom line is, I want an inverter that will work with anything no question. I don't want to have to worry every time I use some appliance whether it will work properly. It is perhaps precisely because I don't have technical knowledge that I see it this way. I don't want to know, I want simply to plug and play. You and some others are satisfied with msw even though it will not function correctly with certain equipment. The latter appears to be wider than just electronic timers and speed controls according to some readers but whatever, you admit that msw will not function universally. That's unacceptable for me and I would have thought for most people spending what must be a large sum on a new boat given the relatively small additional cost of psw. For example I presume you can't even run something as simple as, say, a mains clock radio to listen to whilst falling asleep on timer and wake you up. You may not want to but my point is that it is valuable to have the capacity to do so. Then there's the future issue. Two points. A boater with a new boat may not know what appliances they would like in future. Secondly, technology changes in that new things are available and old things are redesigned. You know that better than me. Far as I know it is as certain as it gets that psw will power anything in future. It is not certain that msw will do so if it can't even power everything now. As for the higher power consumption of psw it simply requires the correct system design as I've said often which you mention. This isn't about my particular boat, it is a general comment for anyone having a new build or refitting, which is what the original query was about. Some of the responses have ignored the fact that this query is about a new build. It's not about someone sticking an inverter into an old boat who probably isn't the type to have a range of modern appliance anyway. As I keep saying on a new build it makes no sense, to me, to save a relatively minuscule amount of money for something that just doesn't work universally. On top of that, Sterling is an inferior brand anyway as Chris Gibson and Gary Peacock, who ought to know because they see large numbers, have confirmed. regards Steve

When I referred to buying "best", this was about inverters, not necessarily every single aspect of a boat. As I've said the additional cost of a psw inverter over msw compared with the cost of a new boat build must be of virtually no consequence. There can be no argument about that really. I agree that there is no point in buying an item possessing features that are wholly unnecessary for the user, like the calculator you mention. But the analogy is flawed because we're not talking about paying for unnecessary features. Ensuring the inverter will run any possible type of appliance is hardly something the user may not need, it is of genuine practicality. Well it is in my view but clearly some disagree. I think it's short sighted penny pinching. There is evidence in this thread and others to demonstrate that msw just doesn't properly with everything. We don't actually know how Pav intends to use his inverter system, what kind of appliances and so on. It may well work on msw who knows? But I'm talking about buying certainty that it will work on present and future appliances. Peoples' requirements and technological designs of equipment change over time. Why risk having something inferior given the relatively modest cost of going for the best? And yes, psw is the best. Isn't it better to err on the side of caution with a new build, within one's financial constraints. regards Steve

I didn't claim or imply your opinion was not worthwhile. You said: But if someone says "I've had a msw inverter on my liveaboard for 10 years and still haven't found anything it wouldn't run", I think that it is a reasonable case for saving money. My response was to counter this argument. In my view it is not a reasonable case for saving money because maybe you just didn't have those appliances which don't work properly. Others have had poor experiences as the thread shows, hence my suggestion to read it because it appeared from your comments that you think msw doesn't cause problems. What you meant is that it didn't cause you problems but it is not right to argue from that, as you have, that it won't cause others to have problems because they have, as stated here and elsewhere. You appeared not to have taken notice of that fact hence my saying you should read the thread. In any case I couldn't have known you were talking about yourself because the word "someone" suggests that you were not. You should have made it clear that it was your own experience if that was what you wanted people to understand by your message, not that it would have altered the gist of my reply though I probably would have worded it differently. Either way, whether you meant yourself or not, I don't see that I was being patronising. I simply don't agree that your comments are necessarily good advice to others. Any ostensible patronisation in your mind arises from your poorly worded message which gave the clear impression that you hadn't read the thread and that you were not referring to your own personal experience. regards Steve

Read the thread Carl if you're really interested in the subject. There are many examples of things that won't run. You have to read about when msw doesn't work, not when it does, to form a worthwhile opinion of what to do, particularly when the difference in cost is unlikely to be a problem as with a new boat. It all depends on what appliances will be used but you can never be sure exactly what they might be in future. Things change, not only the kind of appliances one might want to run, but their electrical construction. So even if you think you know now that you will have only appliances that run on msw, that may not hold true in future. Thus buying an inverter that may not always function correctly is just not the way to proceed in my view. A new boat buyer wants certainty, or I would have thought they do. regards Steve

Why are you happy with "more or less" on a new boat Pav? Don't you want it to do the job every time without doubt? As you are having a new boat built, the money saved by buying an MSW unit from a less than satisfactory maker must be relatively very small so you should want only the best. People advocating MSW are mostly those trying to save small amounts of money, Magnetman's approach. That's okay if you don't got any money and have no choice but for someone with a new boat who must be able to afford the difference I can't see it. One of the common habits of the canal boater having a new build is to be penny wise and pound foolish, skimping on essential equipment, making do with second best to save small amounts that often, later, they will come to regret. Read Gary Peacock's blog, he wrote an excellent feature on just this attitude within the last few weeks. regards Steve

This argument has been put forward on this forum many times John, perhaps by yourself. It never made sense to me and still doesn't. How people managed in the past is of very little relevance to what we do today. They managed without a host of things that we now take for granted. Life moves on, surely you can see that. Thus failing to use a ladder which exists now, just because people didn't have them in the past, is a really ineffective argument against using them. Why on earth should we refrain from using something which is put there for our convenience purely on the grounds that they were not available to previous boaters? I can't understand your point at all. I can see the reasoning that they should not be used because they may be dangerous, that has the merit of some logic though I don't agree with it, but there is absolutely no logic in your argument that people managed before without ladders and that therefore we should too. regards Steve

That's interesting Denis. I'd been led to believe that they work only with Honda type output though you do have to make an adjustment via the software to set it up for the Honda. Useful information. regards Steve

As has been said it depends on exactly what use you are putting the generator. One common piece of kit to use with a generator is a sophisticated multi stage smart charger. Some of these won't work properly on anything other than a Honda because of the poor quality mains output on cheapo gennies. I know that for example my Victron Phoenix Multiplus combi inverter/charger requires the high quality input of a Honda inverter/generator in order to function correctly. It won't work on those cheap generators which lack the output quality of the Honda. But, using a Honda allows the Victron to work with it electronically to operate the generator at the optimum speed according to the demand for charging or other consumption thus maximising the fuel economy of this generator. regards Steve

They may be holding themselves up to ridicule for their beliefs, but that's quite different from making fun of themselves. It's quite possible to be entirely serious about something which many others find laughable. I'd say that's actually quite a common situation. I know it's hard for the rest of us to understand how some people can take what appear to us to be the most ludicrous ideas seriously, but they do. Happens all the time. You can find people who hold the most mad ideas in all earnest. And that is the success of the gay pagan's joke. He's persuaded some people to come up with serious (to them) responses to his ostensibly serious but in reality farcical query. A bit like an April Fool joke or some candid camera prank show. regards Steve

That is impossible snib, a logical contradiction. Where people are responding seriously to the original query, as some have, then by that definition they are not trying to make fun of themselves because they then could not also be talking seriously. regards Steve

Whilst some of the talk Carl is about the subject I agree, several responses have dealt with the specific points raised by the original message about where to cast his runes or whatever it was, playing it straight as if they were answering a query on batteries or something. He is taking the french and they have been taken in. Those readers are being made fools of by this person which I find rather regrettable, hence my post. regards Steve

Don't get Sterling. They have a bad rep. Ask Gibbo of SmartGauge for example or Gary from boatbuilders Ledgard, both of whom are in a position to know. Pay more and go for Victron or Mastervolt. And no, I have no financial interest in the matter but I have researched it. regards Steve

For gawd's sake can't you all see that this reader (stourbridgeguy) is having you all on? Answering his points as if they were serious just makes it all the more amusing for him because he sees you making fools of yourself by taking the bait. Gay pagan my arse. He'll be telling you next that as well as that, he's a black, lesbian, one legged midget. And out will come those naive readers offering help and advice. Watch your crutch at locks, no we're not racists, no you are not alone because many of us ladies on boats have a little pussy on board and so on. Steve

Yes, in fact it is rated at 1,000w maximum. Here are further details from Honda UK's site. http://www.honda.co.uk/energy/ProductDetai...?productIndex=0 Steve