Smart Gauge vs Nasa BM-1

[Guest]

Previously Censored:

 

I said: “ not sure what your point was with the link on stratification – but it’s not something I disagree with.”

 

I meant that I agree with the link but I’m not sure what your original point was or how the link supports your point.

 

The article says: “Batteries tend to stratify if kept at low charge (below 80%) and never have the opportunity to receive a full charge.”

 

I said: “This is simply saying that batteries in partial state of charge operation will suffer more from stratification”

 

Then I also said: “Stratification is – by far – the result of bulk or high current charging – not from sitting idle.”

 

You said: “Which is saying something completely different and is completely wrong.”

 

But you are clearly not getting my point – and perhaps demonstrating a certain lack of insight yourself. Batteries in partial state of charge operation suffer more from stratification because they spend more time being charged at relatively high currents. It’s the relatively high charge currents and absence of ‘overcharge’ voltages at low currents that promotes stratification. This is the problem with the short-drive-time japanese cars and it’s also the problem with many users who prematurely end their charge cycles thinking the batteries are full. It’s also an area that SG does not offer any insight to.

 

Stratification is NOT caused by immobile batteries that are sitting on float. Although stratified batteries that are immobile and on float will certainly stay stratified.

 

 

When I asked you do make your point more clear you said: “Done, see above.”

However, your supported point still escapes me.

 

You said: “Yes it does. Clearly you haven't tried one. Honest, if you had tried one, you'd know it doesn't work how you have deduced it does.”

 

I said it doesn’t give more useful info than a cheap time-averaged voltage reading can. You haven’t said how it actually is more useful than a time-averaged voltage reading. What the utility?

 

You said: “SG doesn't convert voltage to SOC. You can think what you want, but you're wrong. I designed it, I know how it works. You didn't, you don't know.”

 

I say by definition the SG measures only voltage and outputs SOC. Therefore, by elementary logic, SG converts voltage to SOC. (even if it does inject a preturbance)

 

I said: “SmartGauge has no clue what the battery capacity is. If it did, it would tell us.”

 

You said: “If, under any discharge run, there was a way to tell SG what the discharge current is, it would be able to instantly tell you what the capacity is. But it doesn't measure current, so it can't do this. The new device does measure current, and it does indeed tell the user what the battery capacity is by comparing the amps with the SG algorithm. SG cannot tell the user what the capacity is because it doesn't know what the discharge current is. But it does know exactly what proportion of the battery capacity is being discharged at any moment in time, And from that it can track reducing capacity as the battery ages.”

 

I say, you’re on the right track. But I also say again, the SG has no idea what the battery capacity is or it would tell us. I’m not sure how this displays my ignorance. You just said the same thing! Tracking capacity is semantics. A DC volt meter tracks changes in battery capacity but knows nothing.

 

I’ll ask the obvious questions again:

 

What useful information does SG give the user that can’t be obtained with a DC voltmeter and a tiny amount of education? Why is SG useful to the user and how does it help the user manage their batteries better? When one pays 150 pounds for a SG what is the utility they are receiving?

 

[Sir Nibble]

I currently have one on the way for evaluation so this will change.

Why? I mean, a lot of conclusions have already been put forward and published here so why now decide to do the evaluation. Wouldn't it have got the cart and horse in a more useful order to have done the evaluation and then draw the conclusions?

I cannot understand how SG does what is claimed but I prefer to recognise "I cannot understand" as an admittance of ignorance marking the limits of my understanding rather than the limits of the possible.

[WotEver]

Actually, there's one more thing that made me laugh...

You could potentially be chronically undercharging with SG installed

Yeah, of course you could. Just don't look at it.

 

However, if you looked at it and saw that your batteries were only 90% charged then you could do something about it... but I guess that would spoil your argument.

 

Tony

[WotEver]

Wouldn't it have got the cart and horse in a more useful order to have done the evaluation and then draw the conclusions?

But Snib, that doesn't fit with the dogma of the self-opinionated

[churchward]

Honest, I really can't be bothered. It's like trying to "debate" with Rainman.

I think you are being over generous calling much that has been posted here as "debate".

[mayalld]

Honest, I really can't be bothered. It's like trying to "debate" with Rainman.

 

Surely you owe it to your disciples

[Justme]

 

1, What useful information does SG give the user that can’t be obtained with a DC voltmeter and a tiny amount of education?

 

2, Why is SG useful to the user

 

3,how does it help the user manage their batteries better?

 

 

 

1, Ok then if I told you that my battery bank was at 12v (exactly) what would you say about its SOC?

 

2, For me its useful as it allows not techy people to not bugger up about £1k's worth of batteries through ignorance

 

3, As I cant stand around waving a meter about whilst I wait for the best time to start & stop the genny it allows me to have a life. I can be sure that no matter what the bank wont go below the SOC that I have set & that the genny wont run for longer than it needs to. Saving me money & time.

 

 

Just because you cant see a need does not mean there is not one.

[Chris Pink]

Chris Pink is a one trick pony.

 

His only "debating" technique is to attack anybody who takes an opposing position to his own, lest anybody actually try to discuss the issues.

 

I'm touched, really I am, you came all this way to a thread you don't have an opinion on just to have a pop at me, how flattering.

 

And on the same day you were promoted to being one of Carlt's 'bully boys'.

 

I 'm honoured, thank you Dave

[blackrose]

Use an ammeter!

 

It is better than a Smartgauge, for knowing when reasonably healthy batts are fully charged.

 

It's also very useful for diagnosing alternator and electrical problems, and gaining an understanding of charging and power use.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Read my post again:

 

I may be wrong, but here is one function that my SG gives me: If I am charging my batteries from my engine/alternator a voltmeter will say something like 13.6v - 14.4v (with the engine running). So how does one know when the batteries are fully charged? (Remember that Mr Lane was only talking about a voltmeter here, not a voltmeter and ammeter). The SG gives me a % figure which with the engine running may not be totally accurate, but it seems to give me a much better idea than a voltmeter which will always tell me my batteries are fully charged until I switch the engine off and find out later as the voltage drops that they weren't. Perhaps I'm missing something, but for a layman like me that's one function of the SG that I find useful that I don't get from a voltmeter.

[nb Innisfree]

SL2 how can you criticise the SG if you haven't evaluated it yet? The SG doesn't look after batteries, it's just a battery fuel gauge and voltmeter, that's all, nothing else so your evaluation can only test that principle but I suspect you will attempt to devalue the SG by criticising it's inability to accomplish tasks that it never claimed to do in the first place.

[Guest]

SL2 how can you criticise the SG if you haven't evaluated it yet? The SG doesn't look after batteries, it's just a battery fuel gauge and voltmeter, that's all, nothing else so your evaluation can only test that principle but I suspect you will attempt to devalue the SG by criticising it's inability to accomplish tasks that it never claimed to do in the first place.

Which is the bit this poster (SL2) can't understand. However, as he is obviously out to draw attention to himself, the best thing is to completely ignore him.

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Guest

[Slim]

You thihk you have problems!

 

You wanna try designing a battery monitor when all the battery manufacturers deny the design of AGMs changed.

 

Lifeline were the first to admit it... very subtly. Their recommended charge voltage suddenly changed from 14.2 volts to 14.4, then for a short while to 14.8 volts (but is now back to 14.4 volts). They gave no explanation for this. Even today, all three versions of the datasheets are kicking around on the net on different dealer's website because people haven't caught up. The result being that even the dealers have no idea how to charge them because the information they have is years out of date.

 

Here's the owners manual for the Sterling Power Pro Digital Alternator Regulator.

 

http://www.sterling-...%20A5_2006a.pdf

 

Look at the bottom of page 4. Switches 3 and 4. One for AGM, the other for "AGM (USA Specification)". They have two different charge voltages, that's why that device has two different settings for AGMs. Why would that be necessary if there were not two different types of AGMs? The same thing has happened with gel cells. No one seems to know about that either.

 

The problem might be the fact that one particular battery manufacturer makes an AGM, and that's the only type of AGM they have ever made. Another manufacturer makes a different type of AGM. Both those manufacturers, because they only deal with their own batteries, will tell you there is only one type (and they are wrong). Someone who makes a battery monitor or a battery charger will tell you there are two types (and they are right).

 

I've just checked the data on the Multicells and your SmartGauge should be set to battery type 1. That is the second type of AGM that came out. Multicell were obviously late comers to the AGM world and aren't even aware of the first type so to them, there is indeed only one type of AGM.

 

Look round datasheets for AGM batteries. You will find some manufacturers recommend acceptance at 14.2, some at 14.4 and some at 14.8 volts. Some (such as Lifeline) have changed throughout the years as they have changed the design of the batteries. Clearly there are different types otherwise the charge voltages would all be the same.

 

Gibbo,

 

 

Just to say thanks for your advice, exactly what I needed..

 

 

Frank

[Robin2]

 

Keeping your deep cycle batteries healthy and long lasting is extremely simple. Make sure you put 110% or so of the coulombs you take out each week back in. End of story. Whether you have to do it a low voltages for a long time for higher charge voltages for a shorter time (even doing it equalize voltages) just make sure you put them back in on a weekly basis and you will never experience chronic undercharge.

 

 

I have been reading this "debate" with interest hoping to find the odd nugget of information.

 

From an economic point of view one needs to know exactly when to stop charging - i.e. as soon as 100% is reached - just as much as when to start charging.

 

If replacing 110% (or 120% or 130%, whatever) of the amp hours is a suitable means to ensure a full charge then it would be a very simple matter to make an amp-hour counter to do that. Maybe it could also trigger a relay to switch off the engine. Unfortunately the usual amp-hour counters stop when they get back to 0 - which seems silly,

Edited February 28, 2011 by Robin2

[pieter]

Unfortunately the usual amp-hour counters stop when they get back to 0 - which seems silly,

The NASA doesn't stop at zero, but starts to count up from there, which is one way it goes out of sync. E.g. I have solar panels and after the van (sorry, no boat) has been left for a few weeks unused you will get a pretty high positive Ah count. If you don't reset this to zero but just start using the thing from there, you will obviously get a totally inaccurate result. However, I find the NASA very usuable as long as it gets reset when you know you have a full charge and you start using/discharging the batteries. So, the crtics are right in that it is not a fit and forget device.

[smileypete]

Read my post again:

 

I may be wrong, but here is one function that my SG gives me: If I am charging my batteries from my engine/alternator a voltmeter will say something like 13.6v - 14.4v (with the engine running). So how does one know when the batteries are fully charged? (Remember that Mr Lane was only talking about a voltmeter here, not a voltmeter and ammeter). The SG gives me a % figure which with the engine running may not be totally accurate, but it seems to give me a much better idea than a voltmeter which will always tell me my batteries are fully charged until I switch the engine off and find out later as the voltage drops that they weren't. Perhaps I'm missing something, but for a layman like me that's one function of the SG that I find useful that I don't get from a voltmeter.

Don't tell me... Amp Hour counters do not work! (Gospel according to Gibbo, chapter 1, verse 3)

 

Seriously though, some say how much they've learned about batteries and stuff reading these threads and a certain website, but... but.. they don't seem to understand how to actually use a voltmeter and ammeter.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Guest]

If the NASA unit does this then it’s not good. All Ah counters should count the Ah and SOC up past zero and 100% respectively. In this way you can account for the X% overcharge. Many Ah counters will self reset when they start counting back down - and this is exactly what they should do. It's not complicated and it's not subject to drift - assuming you bother to charge your batteries properly.

 

FWIW a simple up-down Ah counter with a voltage display (and with no Peukert's) will do you much MUCH more valuable service than a simple SOC meter. This is because you can actually measure and see if your system is completely charging your batteries. In fact there is no reason for the Ah counter to display SOC at all. Ah count in and out is plenty of info. If the units fails to reset and 'drifts' down - and it might - it's because you are not operating your system properly and your 'system' is failing to complete the required Ah re-balance.

 

I know this might sound a tad over simplified - but it really is this simple. Unfortunately most Ah meters on the market have lost he point in many ways in attempts to feature creep and do stuff they really can’t do properly.

 

All a crude Ah accounting device needs to do is count (integrate) up at 0.9xI, have the ability to up count past '0', count down at I and to reset and count down from '0' if initially above. It's very simple and it's extremely effective at making sure you don't chronically undercharge your expensive batteries. All you need to do is make sure it gets to zero on a regular (weekly) basis.

 

For this meter 0Ah = 100% SOC. By definition. And this is the most imporatnt SOC point you could ever care about.

 

no setup, no config, no peukert's, no battery type, no nothing. Setup = charge the battery and power up the device.

 

Of course more intelligence and further IP can be added - but from my perspective one may as well start with a core technology that at least helps one manage their battery bank.

 

BTW The label on the SG says: "Advanced Battery Management System". So yeah - it claims to be more than a SOC meter. I'm not sure what management functionality it performs though.

No shit?

[Gibbo]

For the obviously required education...

 

"A Battery Management System (BMS) is any electronic device that manages a rechargeable battery (cell or battery pack), such as by monitoring its state, calculating secondary data, reporting that data, protecting it, controlling its environment, and / or balancing it"

 

From...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_management_system

 

There, you learnt something.

 

You're welcome.

 

Surely you owe it to your disciples

 

Ahh that Pinky word again. It does make me feel so important.

[Chalky]

Our NASA meter has one major drawback - it is limited to recording a charge of 102 amps.

 

Once the system is charging at 103 amps it registers a Discharge of 101 amps! So to keep its calculations below 100 amps we do not switch our Travelpower on until the original engine alternator charge is less than about 45 amps.

Nice bit of arithmetic overflow! ADCs have the resolution, but not the maths routines. Oops!

[Gibbo]

Nice bit of arithmetic overflow! ADCs have the resolution, but not the maths routines. Oops!

 

I must admit I was a bit shocked by that. I mean, plenty of devices have software problems but that's something that should have been caught very early on in testing.

[Chalky]

The two can frequently be employed together, so BMS can mean both. To manage a battery correctly you need to monitor it.

[Justme]

I will assume that you missed it first time round SL2

 

 

1, Ok then if I told you that my battery bank was at 12v (exactly) what would you say about its SOC?

 

2, For me its useful as it allows not techy people to not bugger up about £1k's worth of batteries through ignorance

 

3, As I cant stand around waving a meter about whilst I wait for the best time to start & stop the genny it allows me to have a life. I can be sure that no matter what the bank wont go below the SOC that I have set & that the genny wont run for longer than it needs to. Saving me money & time.

 

 

Just because you cant see a need does not mean there is not one.

 

 

Also I would say that it becomes a system when you start to actually read the user guide & use the additional systems. Just like I use the relay to trigger a genny start & stop. So thats managing the battery. Plus you could add the smart bank.

[Gibbo]

Why thank you Mr. Gibbo - it had slipped my mind that once something enters wikipedia it becomes internet fact. Nicely played.

Of course it doesn't, I'm probably one of Wikipedia's biggest critics because it's so full of shit. But did you not bother checking out the reference?

 

http://liionbms.com/php/about_bms.php

 

However, when not on wikipedia one finds two types of BMS out in real world: 1) Battery Monitoring Systems and 2) Battery Management Systems. One type actively monitors stuff. One type actively manages stuff. Of the monitoring type, some are more useful at providing system managment advice than others.

 

Indded, and SG does both 1) and 2)

[sociable_hermit]

I'd say, if you're thinking of developing something wonderful in the battery charging world, your best bet would be to get on with it, and then present it to the forum.

 

Continually belittling your perceived competition when you don't even have a product to sell yet is decidedly unprofessional in my view, and certainly wouldn't encourage me to buy anything from you.

 

Sell the positive benefits of your solution, rather than bitching about somebody else's.

[NB Alnwick]

Please don't feed the Troll. We have a new member that used our forum to launch an attack against a company and one of its employees. We received a report suggesting that the company concerned may regard posts by that particular member as libellous. As a result a standard warning was issued required moderator approval of that members posts for a short period. The warned member responded by creating a second identity (without authority) and then proceeded to continue with his/her trolling activities. That is not what this forum is for or about. From time to time, the moderators do have to take unpopular action but it is taken only for the long term protection of the forum and its owner.

 

Remember that the first line of the troll's first post opened with:

"Smartgauge is pretty much a joke."

[smileypete]

Please don't feed the Troll. We have a new member that used our forum to launch an attack against a company and one of its employees. We received a report suggesting that the company concerned may regard posts by that particular member as libellous. As a result a standard warning was issued required moderator approval of that members posts for a short period. The warned member responded by creating a second identity (without authority) and then proceeded to continue with his/her trolling activities. That is not what this forum is for or about. From time to time, the moderators do have to take unpopular action but it is taken only for the long term protection of the forum and its owner.

 

Remember that the first line of the troll's first post opened with:

"Smartgauge is pretty much a joke."

FFS!!! Why have you deleted all his posts?

 

I didn't see any trolling, what he said was no worse than the personal attacks that certain favoured forum members routinely get away with.

 

I'm sure if Merlin equipment themselves complained with a threat of legal action, some action might be justified.

 

Otherwise you're just acting purely in the interests of any biased individual. Furthermore, as a Smartgauge owner, you're hardly independent.

 

I was just going to reply to a post with a reliable way of preventing amp hour counters going out of synch, but am disappointed to find all his posts have gone.

 

This forum pretty much is a joke!

 

Edit: I bet the person who complained (Gibbo?) won't step forward and share with us why they complained.

 

Why not reply to the thread, and why the need to do it in secret. Seems something fishy is going on...

 

Pete.

Edited March 1, 2011 by smileypete