Smart Gauge vs Nasa BM-1

[Randwick]

Ah yes, so they are. They were almost completely hidden by the 813 and the 5Z4

 

It's nice to know that there's still some of us who remember exactly what thermionic devices were - and are! And yes, these days I'm regarded as a whizz by some of the local musical types who have 'them glass thingies that glow' in their amps. They're all the rage these days, "they give a nice warm sound, don't they?"

[bottle]

Sean Lane

 

Welcome to the forum, I think.

 

First post and you jump straight in to 'rubbishing' the Smartgauge.

 

May I ask. Do you have a boat are you interested in boating or are you here just to have a 'discussion' about the Smatgauge?

[nb Innisfree]

I don't think Gibbo claims the SG is intelligent, no computer is intelligent, just very quick that's all. As I see it SG makes lots of calculations in a very short time and attempts increasingly accurate estimations of batt capacity, of course it can't 'see' what is left any more than a truly intelligent human brain can 'see'. I don't think SG is 'really' accurate but is a lot more accurate than anything else on the market.

 

ETA: If it is snake oil then I take my hat off to Gibbo for a very clever and convincing con, persuaded the MOD and US defence to fork out dosh!

Edited February 27, 2011 by nb Innisfree

[Gunna Do]

Hi Sean and welcome,

Interesting article, hope you have a good helmet and suit of armour!

[Keeping Up]

I've booked my ringside seat, now sat here with a large tub of popcorn.

[Chris Pink]

Sean Lane

 

Welcome to the forum, I think.

 

First post and you jump straight in to 'rubbishing' the Smartgauge.

 

 

Hang him and hang him high

 

Thus quoth the disciples

[Robin2]

 

ETA: If it is snake oil then I take my hat off to Gibbo for a very clever and convincing con, persuaded the MOD and US defence to fork out dosh!

 

Not a very demanding test

[Slim]

Ah well, so it looks like I've just bought £159.99 worth of snakeoi!l. If I have it won't be the first time.

 

In the meanwhile can anyone help me with a setup issue concerning the type of AGM batteries I have. They are Mulicell AGMs and are about 4 years old. (5 x 110 ah) The Smartguage manual states that there are two types of AGM battery One that is similar to a flooded cell battery but with the electrolyte held in glass matt. These are set as battery type 1 in the SG. The other type of AGM has additional chemicals added "similar" to gel cells and is set as battery type 3 in the SG. Whilst I suspected they were the former type eg set to type1 (based mainly on the price I paid at the time) I took the advice in the manual and phoned Multicell. Unfortunatly whilst they were pleasent to speak to they were not too informative. I was told that there was only 1 type of AGM and that any suggestion there were more was "bunkum" PLEASE DO NOT SHOOT THE MESSENGER I AM ONLY REPEATING WHAT I WAS TOLD.

 

Any advice would be most welcome.

 

 

Frank

 

 

PS Whilst I intend to keep, fit and use this particular snakeoil I have a shed full of it I've bought over the years.

[Chalky]

You'd almost be just a well off with a time averaged voltage reading - which is likely most of what Smartgauge does anyway.

 

There's many ways to guestimate SOC. Amp counting is one, so is voltage, Specific gravity is another, but SG obviously doesn't do that. Other techniques include measuring the impedance of the battery at different frequencies, running a model of the battery chemistry and using that to calculate SOC and then correcting the approximations with live data. I suspect that SG uses one of the latter, but that is proprietary info. There are other methods, but I intend to remain employed!

Having worked with the MOD & the US DOD both would (did) require disclosure of data which is (was) then checked for validity.

 

At the end of the day if a gauge is accurate enough to display useful data that can be understood by the user then it's achieved it's design objectives.I think SG more than adequately meets those objectives.

[Gibbo]

 

So it doesn't work. Oh wait, that's not what he said, he said it can't work. We're back to that "airmchair expert doesn't understand something therefore concludes it can't work".

 

Mr new member. Lots of your post is wrong. Particularly the bit about stratification.

 

Here's a reference confirming what I say, and showing what you say to be completely wrong...

 

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/what_causes_car_batteries_to_fail

 

Not a very demanding test

 

Clearly you don't know what the tests are. Not a surprise really.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Gibbo

[Guest]

Freakin' hell, quite a first post!

 

I don't have a Smart Gauge(or any gauges TBH), although I know one professional marine electrician (ships) who uses them on NB's, so that would be a vote in my opinion.

 

I do feel that the new poster has tried to discredit the Smartgauge, which is very easy when he/she hasn't produced an alternative (as far as I am aware.) At least Gibbo has nailed his colours to the mast. New poster, when you market a more reliable, cheaper alternative, then your comments will be credible. In the meantime, your words are little more than that.

 

I have no connection with Gibbo whatsoever, have never met him, but have asked for advice on several occasions, which I have found to be very reliable, given freely, and gladly (like the vast majority of members on here.) His sound advice has saved me a great deal of money. It saddens me to see an attempt to discredit him and his invention in this manner.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Guest

[smileypete]

The most stable way to report on battery SOC in these partial state of charge applications is to use the battery voltage - which is what smartgague does.

Wrong I'm afraid, it uses battery conductance (AC resistance) readings to work out SoC.

 

Of course the information on the Smartgauge website is a bit biased towards marketing Smartguage, but why wouldn't it be?

 

That said it's a very useful and well supported bit of kit.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited February 27, 2011 by smileypete

[bottle]

Hang him and hang him high

 

Thus quoth the disciples

 

 

[Gibbo]

I took the advice in the manual and phoned Multicell. Unfortunatly whilst they were pleasent to speak to they were not too informative. I was told that there was only 1 type of AGM and that any suggestion there were more was "bunkum"

 

You thihk you have problems!

 

You wanna try designing a battery monitor when all the battery manufacturers deny the design of AGMs changed.

 

Lifeline were the first to admit it... very subtly. Their recommended charge voltage suddenly changed from 14.2 volts to 14.4, then for a short while to 14.8 volts (but is now back to 14.4 volts). They gave no explanation for this. Even today, all three versions of the datasheets are kicking around on the net on different dealer's website because people haven't caught up. The result being that even the dealers have no idea how to charge them because the information they have is years out of date.

 

Here's the owners manual for the Sterling Power Pro Digital Alternator Regulator.

 

http://www.sterling-power.com/images/downloads/PDAR_%20A5_2006a.pdf

 

Look at the bottom of page 4. Switches 3 and 4. One for AGM, the other for "AGM (USA Specification)". They have two different charge voltages, that's why that device has two different settings for AGMs. Why would that be necessary if there were not two different types of AGMs? The same thing has happened with gel cells. No one seems to know about that either.

 

The problem might be the fact that one particular battery manufacturer makes an AGM, and that's the only type of AGM they have ever made. Another manufacturer makes a different type of AGM. Both those manufacturers, because they only deal with their own batteries, will tell you there is only one type (and they are wrong). Someone who makes a battery monitor or a battery charger will tell you there are two types (and they are right).

 

I've just checked the data on the Multicells and your SmartGauge should be set to battery type 1. That is the second type of AGM that came out. Multicell were obviously late comers to the AGM world and aren't even aware of the first type so to them, there is indeed only one type of AGM.

 

Look round datasheets for AGM batteries. You will find some manufacturers recommend acceptance at 14.2, some at 14.4 and some at 14.8 volts. Some (such as Lifeline) have changed throughout the years as they have changed the design of the batteries. Clearly there are different types otherwise the charge voltages would all be the same.

[Gibbo]

And as for "doesn't work" and "amp hour counters are the best" well....

 

The are two main issues with amp hour counters: 1. They go out of sync and 2. They can't track the reducing capacity as the battery ages.

 

Those are the two biggest problems with them. In the real world these two problems absolutely stop them being of any use whatsoever to most people. Some people can work round these issues, but not everyone and not every installation permits it (those where repetetive short charging is carried out).

 

However, if lab tests are carried out, we can ensure it is in sync, and we can check the capacity simply by discharging the battery until it is completely flat. We can then (after the event) plot the state of charge calculated from the amp hour counter. But note that you can't do this if you don't know the capacity (which in most cases actually won't be known).

 

The following graph is exactly such a test.

 

 

The red line is the soc calculated from the amp hour counter. The yellow line is the state of charge produced by the SmartGauge algorithm.

 

Note that the SmartGauge cannot run out of sync. Even if you deliberately set the SOC wrong, it will automatically sync itself up, without ever having to fully recharge.

 

It doesn't work? LOL

 

And one last thing, I've sold it, it's not mine anymore, I've had my bit out of it so I actually don't give a flying f*ck.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Gibbo

[Albion]

It's a troll, don't give it the credibility that it so clearly craves.

Roger

[blackrose]

I have a Smartgauge and a BEP DC meter which uses current to estimate SoC. All I know is that the BEP meter is only good for looking at volts at 3 battery banks and amps in or out of my domestic bank across the shunt. The SoC function of the BEP meter is next to useless as it drifts too much. As Sean Lane points out, I have no way of knowing exactly how accurate the SoC function of the SG is, but since it's obviously much more accurate than my BEP meter (that cost about £180), I can't see how the "snake oil" accusation can be reasonably justified. I'm sure once Gibbo worked out the algorithms the meter itself cost pennies to produce, but I'm afraid that's the price of R&D in this market system which offers us such products.

 

Also, Sean Lane's advice to use voltage to estimate SoC is all very well, but if you're a livaboard you will rarely have an opportunity to be able to take a voltage reading that isn't either subject to surface charge on the plates or some deficit from recent battery use. My understanding is that an accurate voltage reading is only possible if the batteries are left without any charge or discharge for 24 hours (and then you've got temperature compensation to factor in). Of course since the SG uses voltage to render SoC it may be that it is subject to this issue too - but the stability of the SoC readings on the SG indicates otherwise.

Edited February 27, 2011 by blackrose

[Guest]

It's a troll, don't give it the credibility that it so clearly craves.

Roger

You are most likely correct. If not,then the poster will come back and justify his/her claims, no doubt backed up by extensive R&D, and at least a blueprint for a better alternative. If it was a troll then we will likely hear no more from the poster.

 

I challenge the poster to nail his/her colours to the mast, and make some positive suggestions as to how a better alternative to the SG can be developed (again backed by R&D, not text book quotes), rather than negative comments describing how an existing device can't work. Can you rise to that challenge?

[Gibbo]

I suspect an IP check by a mod would show it to match a regular.

[Guest]

I suspect an IP check by a mod would show it to match a regular.

I would bet a Smartgauge on it

 

I did have suspicions, but having re-read it a couple of times, the person in mind wouldn't have made so many grammatical errors.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Guest

[Chris Pink]

I suspect an IP check by a mod would show it to match a regular.

 

Well report the post then and ask the mods, because if you're right (you're not) it's against forum rules. It is my impression that the writing style is different from any of the members on here with the technical ability to make such an analysis.

 

Face it , you can't take criticism, you can't accept anything other than your narrow and blinkered point of view.

 

I said a long time ago that it was my finding, arrived at more empirically, that I knew more about my batteries from a multimeter and day to day experience than £150 worth of kit told me, I sold it for £125 to someone who was happy with it, fair dos. But I am much happier without it and would much rather write off £25 than the £150 I was looking at shortly after buying.

 

The main criticism in that post, exactly as I, and several others, have said is the 100% of an unknown quantity is still an unknown quantity.

 

Your habit of flaming anyone who disagrees with you does you no credit whatsoever and as for not 'giving a flying fuck' - why post 4 separate times in response then?

Edited February 27, 2011 by Chris Pink

[bottle]

SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

I said a long time ago that it was my finding, arrived at more empirically, that I knew more about my batteries from a multimeter and day to day experience than £150 worth of kit told me,

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP

 

Hi

 

Disciple here.

 

Well I, and probably many others do not have your knowledge and personally I cannot be bothered to keep taking readings, I have other things to do.

 

I go to the Smartgauge I press a button and it tells me a reading, that reading gives me a % , that is good enough for me, I then know whether it is getting near to charge time or not.

[Guest]

Well report the post then and ask the mods, because if you're right (you're not) it's against forum rules. It is my impression that the writing style is different from any of the members on here with the technical ability to make such an analysis.

 

Face it , you can't take criticism, you can't accept anything other than your narrow and blinkered point of view.

 

I said a long time ago that it was my finding, arrived at more empirically, that I knew more about my batteries from a multimeter and day to day experience than £150 worth of kit told me, I sold it for £125 to someone who was happy with it, fair dos. But I am much happier without it and would much rather write off £25 than the £150 I was looking at shortly after buying.

 

The main criticism in that post, exactly as I, and several others, have said is the 100% of an unknown quantity is still an unknown quantity.

 

Your habit of flaming anyone who disagrees with you does you no credit whatsoever and as for not 'giving a flying fuck' - why post 4 separate times in response then?

Your post actually hits the nail right on the head. I have read more than once that the idea of the Smartgauge is for those who DON'T have the expertise or the time/equipment to carry out such tests (I don't have a SG BTW, and have no intentions of buying one.) I believe I once read that the SG was "Like a fuel gauge for batteries" or something similar, although the mind can play tricks.

 

Your post does beg one question though:

If you knew ways of working out your battery charge state "Using just a voltmeter, and experience" (which is what I would do,) then why in hell did you buy an SG when clearly you didn't need one?

Edited February 27, 2011 by Guest

[Chris Pink]

I cannot be bothered to keep taking readings,

 

I go to the Smartgauge I press a button and it tells me a reading

 

 

Bit of a contradiction there?

[Guest]

Bit of a contradiction there?

Come off it, you know what Bottle means.