Battery Monitors

[Chalky]

I rather stupidly bought a BM1 so SOC is a real guess for me!

I'd like to see:-

>Volts

>Amps

>SOC - with the ability to cope with batteries that are very sulphated and not go out of sync

>Ability to cope with non lead acid batteries - LiFe, LiPo etc (future compatability)

>Able to manage very large battery banks and currents (traction motors, etc)

>Able to handle high voltage batteries (not just 12 & 24, but also 48. Hybrid vehicles work in the 300 - 400V range - huge market if you can get it right (would also need CAN))

>Estimated time to flat - useful for electric propulsion

>Charge me now - could be used to start APU

>Is it nearly charged yet? - like SOC, but telling me how charged the batteries are and when I can stop

>Life estimation - could be No. deep cycles, % time flat etc

>Ability to have display separate from sensors - not just adjacent, but 40' away

>Ability to monitor large loads and do some load management - can't run nnn since it would damage batteries

>Very low quiescent - some battery monitor ICs are in the uA & pA region

>Able to cope with holiday boats where they may be kept with battery isolation switches open

>guestimate of water usage with a top up soon warning

>Ability of users to update the software themselves to keep product current. (could be a sensor / data recorder box that plugs into PC USB, PC does crunching etc)

 

There are lots of battery monitor ic on the market that give a guestimate of SOC and are bus based. If one of these could be built into a battery clamp (automotive practice) and individualy addressed then would it be possible to determine the state of each battery? Avoid the 'guess the dead one' game. Starts to move towards a battery management system

Edited November 26, 2010 by Chalky

[Chris Pink]

As the Smartgauge with an indication of what the % is of, ie AH remaining.

 

A much better styling - proper buttons, good graphic design and a backlit LCD with auto off. The display should be in English, not proprietary symbols.

 

Current measurement with 2 shunts - domestic in/out, total charging in.

 

Some kind of daily AH usage, AH metering of charging.

 

an optional data-logging module (or maybe software)

 

 

 

Two existing pieces of equipment that would be worth emulating;

 

A good prototype but probably overkill would be a version of the Outback Flex for general duty.

 

The other standard device that works very well is the Belkin Regulator Pro Gold UPS with USB which gives monitoring of 240V status as well (and manages it for £64 - i notice it is still a current model - I had one of these 5 years ago until the boat sunk and the amount of information it gave me was astonishing)

 

edited to say; well almost a current model

Edited November 26, 2010 by Chris Pink

[Québec]

Reading through all the above (and not understanding a good percentage of it) it's clear - that whatever the final product ends up doing, it needs to provide some straighforward, easily understandable information quickly and simply (e.g. Evo's post) but also provide a whole host of increasingly sophisticated information - which also needs to be accessed relatively simply and displayed clearly.

 

Even Rolls-Royce owners (I surmise as I've only ever been in one once, and that was over 50 years ago!) sometimes simply want to know - at a glance - how much fuel? is everything working properly? and, if not, what's the problem?

[Gibbo]

Some excellent stuff here. Some good ideas.

 

All the suggestions such as volts, SoC, state of health, amps, amp.hour counting, time remaining, battery temperature, data logging, multiple programmable alarms etc is already part of the design spec. In fact most of them are fundamental to how the existing device works (that part is already completed).

 

The remote operation/display is interesting. That's how the current one operates. We (perhaps incorrectly) assumed everyone would want a standalone single device as opposed to a device made up of separate parts?

 

User interface? Buttons? Mechanical switches? Touchscreen? PC interface only?

 

Display? LED, LCD? Graphics? Mono/Colour? How big? And why?

 

No of battery channels and why?

 

Keep it coming please. The idea is to design a battery monitor that you guys want not one that a company thinks you want.

[canalowl]

I have a Smartguage / Smartbank set up with solar, main engine alternator and on board generator / battery charger for charging. I run the main engine for bulk charge up to 90% or so and let the solar do the rest. In times of heavy usage or in winter I'll run the generator to bring the charge up to 100%. The bits of information that I would like in addition to what I have are:

 

What the main engine alternator is doing as I never know if tick-over engine speed is sufficient / economical

 

An indication of the state of my house batteries compared to their original amp hour rating. This wouldn't need to be accurate - just let me know that I need to think about changing the house batteries as I am losing solar power.

 

The design of the Smartguage itself could also do with improvement as it is fiddly on pressing buttons and I damaged the push button cover almost as soon as I installed it.

 

A remote readout could be useful but not really necessary as I tend to have a good idea how long to leave the main engine / generator running for a particular Smartguage readout.

 

Similarly, a USB port for downloading information would most probably be more than would want to pay for.

 

Hope this is useful and good luck with the new project, if it's half as good as the Smartguage it will be brilliant, Dave

[MoominPapa]

The remote operation/display is interesting. That's how the current one operates. We (perhaps incorrectly) assumed everyone would want a standalone single device as opposed to a device made up of separate parts?

 

I can see an argument for splitting it. This thing is going to end up with quite a few connections to shunts and batteries, those will be difficult to extend to the preferred position for the User Interface. A box that takes all the monitoring connections that you can shove in the battery box/engine room/underneath the back deck, and a display/operation head connected to it with a single cable looks like a winner.

 

 

MP.

[nb Innisfree]

For me a wireless display is a must these days, standing uncomfortably in the back cabin trying to observe different parameters is a bit of a pain frankly, full colour touch screens are becoming the norm with cell phones and anything less would be a bit second rate IMO. It also needs to be pocket sized so you can sit outside by the barbie, more detailed info could be received on a laptop?

[Gibbo]

A few of you have completely convinced me on one or two points.

 

Others I'm very dubious about but I'm not going to say which as I don't want to influence any further ideas.

[Iain_S]

(snip)

The remote operation/display is interesting. That's how the current one operates. We (perhaps incorrectly) assumed everyone would want a standalone single device as opposed to a device made up of separate parts?

(snip)

No of battery channels and why?

(snip)

 

There is possibly a demand for 3 channels (engine, cabin, bowthruster) Perhaps a case for a remote interface unit, with separate units for each battery. These could come in different types i.e. Voltage only, Voltage plus SOC, Volts SOC and Amps,as well as different battery voltages.

User interface? Buttons? Mechanical switches? Touchscreen? PC interface only?

Display? LED, LCD? Graphics? Mono/Colour? How big? And why?

I find the current interface quite intuitive and easy to use. I haven't broken anything yet The current buttons have the advantage that the front of the unit is sealed, which might not be the case with some buttons/switches for long. Touchscreen would probably be a bit expensive, and would need a bigger screen, adding to the price. PC only interface is, I think, a bad idea. (In my case, due to lack of PC )

 

To keep price down, LED of LCD display does the job.

 

Iain

[WotEver]

How about controlling it with an iPhone app?

 

Then if you want a big display, buy an iPad. That's gotta be cheaper than Gibbo manufacturing/repurposing a 3rd party touch screen, plus you have another gadget to play with.

 

In my industry (professional video) iPhone apps are becoming a norm for almost anything new, whether they come with their own controller or not.

 

Tony

[nb Innisfree]

A few of you have completely convinced me on one or two points.

 

Others I'm very dubious about but I'm not going to say which as I don't want to influence any further ideas.

 

Sir, sir please sir my ideas are best sir...

[WotEver]

A few of you have completely convinced me on one or two points.

 

Others I'm very dubious about....

So you're not sold on

Built in broadband and space invaders + a paint job that changes colour at different angles like you get with some cars

then?

 

Tony

 

Sir, sir please sir my ideas are best sir...

[nb Innisfree]

There is possibly a demand for 3 channels (engine, cabin, bowthruster) Perhaps a case for a remote interface unit, with separate units for each battery. These could come in different types i.e. Voltage only, Voltage plus SOC, Volts SOC and Amps,as well as different battery voltages.

 

I find the current interface quite intuitive and easy to use. I haven't broken anything yet The current buttons have the advantage that the front of the unit is sealed, which might not be the case with some buttons/switches for long. Touchscreen would probably be a bit expensive, and would need a bigger screen, adding to the price. PC only interface is, I think, a bad idea. (In my case, due to lack of PC )

 

To keep price down, LED of LCD display does the job.

 

Iain

 

As for price it is intended to be the Rolls Royce of monitors so it will need to incorporate all the best applications and price will reflect quality. Add ons could address this, complexity purchased according to depth of pocket.

Edited November 26, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Albion]

There is possibly a demand for 3 channels (engine, cabin, bowthruster) Perhaps a case for a remote interface unit, with separate units for each battery. These could come in different types i.e. Voltage only, Voltage plus SOC, Volts SOC and Amps,as well as different battery voltages.

 

I find the current interface quite intuitive and easy to use. I haven't broken anything yet The current buttons have the advantage that the front of the unit is sealed, which might not be the case with some buttons/switches for long. Touchscreen would probably be a bit expensive, and would need a bigger screen, adding to the price. PC only interface is, I think, a bad idea. (In my case, due to lack of PC )

 

To keep price down, LED of LCD display does the job.

 

Iain

 

Yes, I'm not against sealed (current style) switches, I just wanted ones with a bit more feel and quality to them. These would be perfectly adequate and cheaper than a touch screen. I find the switches on the Victron 602 perfectly OK and the unit is compact and has a quality feel and appearance to it. The display is a bit small though.

Another consideration I suppose is how weatherproof the unit should be. In my case, on my barge, it is mounted well out of the weather but, in the case of a nb, I guess it could be on an instrument panel that, while not in direct line of sight to the rain, might still be somewhat exposed.

Roger

[Chalky]

Most of us (obviously!) have PCs and having a laptop on the boat is not uncommon. If the unit was made as a box with a simple display - couple of LEDs, buzzer etc, the more complex displays could be done on a PC. This would keep the cost down, but allow some very interesting graphics. The monitor box could contain a web server and thus appear to the PC as a website. If the API was carefully written it could be published and allow 3rd party apps to call it. A web server would also allow you to access it via ethernet - PC connectivity and with the correct USB 3G dongle adapter it would be remotely accessable.

[keble]

Key thing for me is: is the charge going in? The charger might be hammering away but if the batteries are faulty (eg low electrolyte) then I'd like to know. I have an analogue meter, which is pretty crude.

Re cost: new batteries will cost maybe £200, so cost of gadget needs to be sensible compared with this.

[Chalky]

Re cost: new batteries will cost maybe £200, so cost of gadget needs to be sensible compared with this.

Agreed, however if the unit is only suitable for boaters then the volume will be small and the cost high. If the unit can be applied to lots of other areas - caravans, off grid houses, UPS monitors, hybrid vehicle conversions, etc then economies of scale will kick in and we'll all be able to afford one.

[GUMPY]

I have one of these for my 240v supply

Strikes me a similar thing to this would be good for a DC monitor but with the ideas presented earlier.

Radio, stand alone, but with a USB interface to the pc if needed

Edited November 26, 2010 by idleness

[sociable_hermit]

Ok, I'm going to go against the grain here.

 

This is an electrical discussion in an online forum. It's a veritable geek magnet. I'm not sure you're going to get a representative sample of 'average boater' opinion here, Gibbo.

 

In my view more boaters know little about electricity than know a lot about it. That's not meant to be a criticism of the expertise on here, it's just that I don't think we're a typical group. Liveaboards generally know more because they have to, particularly CCers. But the majority of boaters are "weekend boaters" who are out on tour for maybe 5 or 6 weeks a year tops. Provided the boat works properly at the start of the week and is still working properly at the end of the week, they're happy.

 

The biggest problem for the average boater is the huge number of options available when setting up a boat, or more particularly when modfying one. Everything seems to be complicated and difficult, unnecessarily so. If you buy a solar panel or a wind genny, where do you plug it in? How can you tell whether its working? How should one prioritise between a shoreline charger, a solar panel or a wind genny? Can they work together? What about when the engine is running and the shoreline is disconnected?

 

I think simplicity is the key. What I would like to see is a big magic box with a set of marked inputs for a mains charger, 2 alternators, solar panel and wind genny. And marked outputs for the starter battery and 2 leisure battery banks, and possibly for the inverter? I would then like an instruction manual that says "Plug everything in and the GibboGauge 2020 will automatically manage your batteries for the optimal blend of perfomance and longevity". It can have some dials and buttons if you like, just to prove it's doing something, but I won't touch anything because I won't really understand it.

 

For the Rolls Royce end of the market I agree that analogue gauges and big fat toggle switches are the way forward. The thing we're all forgetting though, is that Rolls owners don't generally maintain their own cars - they pay someone else to do that for them. And that's what's really needed here - a device that's simple to set up and does everything for you. That, I think, is what people will pay good money for.

[NoFixedAbode]

My extravagant wish list:-

 

5 chanels !

 

channel 1. (Propulsion battery 48v) Volts, Amps, SOC, Calculated battery capacity, Time to flat at present load.

channel 2. (House battery 12v) volts, Amps, SOC, Manually reset Amp/Hour counter, Calculated battery capacity.

channel 3. (Generator start battery 12v) volts only.

channel 4. (12v solar panel & wind turbine) Volts, Amps, Manually reset Amp/Hour counter.

channel 5. (48v solar panels) Volts, Amps, Manually reset Amp/Hour counter.

 

6 sets of programmable no volt C/O contacts (just like smartgauge) configurable to any channel.

data logging on all channels

LCD display, I think LED looks dated.

USB to download logged data and configure the unit, with open source software we can play with.

Multiple displays (one near helm to monitor channel 1 and another on the wall in the galley to monitor all channels)

 

Bank Loan to pay for it, and you would probably only sell one.

[blackrose]

I'm quite happy with my Smartgauge and BEP DC meter

http://www.bepmarine.com/home-mainmenu-8/product-360/600-dcm-contour-matrix-dc-monitor.

 

It would be nice to have all these funtions in one unit rather than two, but don't think I need any more battery bank information or monitoring functionality.

 

The Smartgauge doesn't really have the finish of other quality monitors, so that could be improved too.

[Guest User]

I'd like a an auto-everything gizmo please ....

 

Auto-detect evereything - battery type, batttery bank size and capacity (ok, maybe the user would have to input what the original capacity is/was).

 

A display that not only gives all the expected info on the battery banks but also gives stats on the individual batteries too (this is a wish-list after all !).

 

Maximum of two wires to connect to any given battery bank, but preferably NONE !

 

A wireless remote display (with a transmitter on the base unit that can be switched off to save power when not in use

 

Phone uplink to call the user to say if the batteries are flat or doing something "undesirable"

 

Optional audible alarms for when capacity is getting close to lower limit

 

All contained in a super-duper shiny, ergonomic, weatherproof, oilyfingerproof unit with easy-to-read display and easy-to-press buttons. Would be nice to have surface mounted and flush-mounting box options too.

 

I'm not after a locked-out unit though ... it ought to be auto-everything if I'm in a can't-be-bothered mood, and fully user definable for when I can be bothered to take notice of the finer settings.

 

Oddly enough though I'm fairly ambivalent towards battery monitors, I've installed two Smartgauges, but I'm equally happy without any monitors at all, so essentially the new unit would sell itself to me on ease of use, massive functionality .... and prettiness

[Neil TNC]

Apart from some of the other good suggestions...especially the 12/24 split

OK...so I know it can be done with (modified?) switches, but how about an easy way for the average idiot, to get the new gauge to switch alternator (or even a Victron Quattro / Multi Plus ) to float, once 100% charge reached?...using the gauge as a Smart alternator controller??? Does anyone see any point in this???

 

ps...I would love to trial one of these new gauges, seeing as I only have a sad old "box" type Smartgauge to fit in barge Maurice A*

 

barge Maurice A*

Will be:

110A 12v generator start 50A alternator

220A 12v engine start/nav instuments 70A alternator

660A 24v domestics 100A alternator / 3000/24/120 Victron Quattro

[Justme]

Dont limit your market to just boaters.

 

Going off grid or having a split on/off grid set up is getting bigger.

[sharpness]

When designing anything to be marketed you have to remember that not all customers are the same. There's the likes of me (with a Smartguage) who just want to know "Can I stay here tomorrow or do I need to move on to charge the batteries" Then there's the "how many gizmo's can I get in my boat" brigade & those that fall somewhere in between. The likes of me wouldnt want to pay a substantial sum for loads of information they dont feel they need & frankly dont understand. The gizmo brigade cant understand why we dont want it.

Those are perhaps two extremes but where do you pitch the design? How much information do you "need" & how much is just "interesting" or "nice to know" if you're into that sort of thing & are willing to pay for it. Which end of the market is most lucrative?

Tricky one.