Engine Headaches

[ditchcrawler]

I tried Motor Factors. The guy wasn't quite sure what would be the best option. I ordered the box spanner for Monday from a tools specialist and if that doesn't do the trick I'll call at Motor Factors again. I guess I can also remove the valve cover while I'm at it.

If it succeeds do I need to get new heat shields for the injectors or is it best to do that later on if the engine runs? The same question regarding the valve cover gasket.

A socket spanner is available for under £6 made by Draper

[Denis R]

A minor additional complication with removing the head on this engine is that there are two different designs of head bolts in circulation. The 11mm Allen socket type can be re-used, but the other design is a yield-point bolt and you have to bin them and fit new ones if you remove them. They're less than a couple of quid each from German & Swedish, so not a bank-breaker, but a potential problem area if you skimp and re-use them.

[FORTUNATA]

The injectors are now out and the box spanner tool I found to be perfectly adequate for the job. I had to remove some kind of water pump mechanism to get at the last injector but that wasn't too difficult. So, the first thing I notice is the injector nozzles seem a bit dirty and there seem to be heat shields missing from 3 injector bores. I assume it's heat shields since when you look down the first injector bore there's a very small hole yet the other injectors bores have holes the size of a one penny coin. Seems to me that over time a lot of people have been messing with the engine and this is the kind of thing you come across. There also seem to be a leak off pipe missing from no 4 injector nozzle.

I just hope nobody unknown has tried to remove the belt and messed up the timing. There was once a guy I met on a narrowboat who told me he could have a go for me to get it up and running and I know he spent a day messing with the engine. Later I realised he was pretty much clueless with a vehicle type 4 cylinder engine and he'd been attempting unsuccessfully to remove the injection pump, possibly without a puller tool. Even so, the last mechanic I had on it came from a garage and he did tell me by phone he'd had the engine running (albeit sounding very rough after 5 minutes). All this took place about 4 years ago.

At any rate, I have now poured a little engine oil down the injector bores. I span it first as Tony said with the injectors out. I have now left the engine for a while but am thinking a bit of W.D.40 might be a good idea and very definitely a powerful battery.

If air induction doesn't strengthen next time around, I'll remove the valve cover.

By the way, I confess I'm very skeptical I can get this engine going. It is a learning experience but you get the feeling it's been hugely neglected and messed with over the years as well as being exposed to heavy rainfall.

 

 

Apparently the timing marks are normally located via a plug on the clutch bellhousing. That confuses me a bit as the transmission was obviously removed and an Enfield coupled up. So, I'm not yet sure how I could find timing marks if I decide to take the engine apart. Maybe that's why my cousin marked the belt. My guess is even for him it would have been difficult to work on an engine when in those kind of cramped conditions, trying to get at bolts within boxing. Normally he'd have done all this stuff in his garage with suspension and benches but that day he just brought a box of tools. The engine was so boxed up even changing the oil filter would have been difficult.

 

I'm terribly sorry to read about your cousin, I've lost 2 friends in 2 plane-crashes, it's always hard to loose family and friends.

 

In the Haynes manuel they show you the marks on the camshaft, injectionpump and all the other stuff driven by the belt in relation to each other.

 

Your idea of buying another engine (one that is still running) is maybe the better idea, but there again to play safe you should put a new timing belt on, as if they go your engine is gone.

 

Good luck,

 

Peter.

[larkshall]

Before doing a lot to this motor, I would perform two 'compression tests'

 

1) normal cyclinder pressure test

2) cylinder 'leakdown test'

 

depending on results you should be a lot clearer on whats likely to be wrong.

 

Actually had this sort of problem on golf gti motor, damned mechanic had got timing out by 180......

 

20 mins diagnosis, and 5hrs to fix (you try to work on seris one golf.....)

[FORTUNATA]

The work has been on hold for a couple of says or so but I'll resume soon with some WD 40 down the injector bores and then spin the engine over. After that, I'll check the tapets.

At some point I'll have to decide how the land lies as I recently lost my job, live on my other boat so have the two boats to deal with. Thus, hiring more skilled mechanics would reach beyond my budget unless I happen to drop on another job. So, the plan is to tackle whatever can be tackled at the more basic level till I come to a sticking point and then we'll see.

It may be I'll have some degree of success as my bet is the engine is going to be down on compression if it hasn't been run for many years. All the rain and damp doesn't do an engine much good.

 

 

 

Before doing a lot to this motor, I would perform two 'compression tests'

 

1) normal cyclinder pressure test

2) cylinder 'leakdown test'

 

depending on results you should be a lot clearer on whats likely to be wrong.

 

Actually had this sort of problem on golf gti motor, damned mechanic had got timing out by 180......

 

20 mins diagnosis, and 5hrs to fix (you try to work on seris one golf.....)

[JonL]

I guess on the upside, if you never manage to fix it at least you will know how to take it apart to make it lighter and easier to get out

[FORTUNATA]

Guess I need some luck. I was originally told the boat had a perfectly good working engine and was talked into taking it on. At that time I knew zilch about boats or engines. Finally I put a temporary outboard on it and cruised it to a boatyard. It runs fine on the outboard and I could easily convert it but I keep thinking that diesel engine could be a great learning curve for me.

Yesterday I did nothing as the opportunity arose to install a new battery in my other boat. I got it for free but the charge was merely 5 volts although hydrometer testing did give white for capacity. I installed the battery and this morning I got a reading of 12.9 volts although it's coupled up to another battery and both equalising. Maybe I got a bargain. I assumed it was knackered but someone told me there are times a totally flatted battery can take a charge if the plates are still O.K.

 

I guess on the upside, if you never manage to fix it at least you will know how to take it apart to make it lighter and easier to get out

Edited July 22, 2010 by FORTUNATA

[Guest]

Guess I need some luck. I was originally told the boat had a perfectly good working engine and was talked into taking it on. At that time I knew zilch about boats or engines. Finally I put a temporary outboard on it and cruised it to a boatyard. It runs fine on the outboard and I could easily convert it but I keep thinking that diesel engine could be a great learning curve for me.

Yesterday I did nothing as the opportunity arose to install a new battery in my other boat. I got it for free but the charge was merely 5 volts although hydrometer testing did give white for capacity. I installed the battery and this morning I got a reading of 12.9 volts although it's coupled up to another battery and both equalising. Maybe I got a bargain. I assumed it was knackered but someone told me there are times a totally flatted battery can take a charge if the plates are still O.K.

If it's down to 5 volts, I wouldn't expect miracles. Worth a try though I suppose; I once got a season out of two neglected batteries on a previous boat.

[soldthehouse]

If it's down to 5 volts, I wouldn't expect miracles. Worth a try though I suppose; I once got a season out of two neglected batteries on a previous boat.

A word of advice ...Dont travel to France

[FORTUNATA]

It tested O.K. on capacity but voltage was way down. It now seems to test O.K. on voltage. I understand the boater who had the batteries had a major charging problem so his batteries weren't getting any charge for ages. It all depends on whether this led to major plate sulfation. Sometimes it can be surface sulfation so not deep into the plates. My guess is the said battery is probably better than the one I had before that I dumped to make way for the other one.

As for the engine work resumes this weekend. I'm going to use some W.D. 40 down the injector bores and possibly take off the valve cover. If all that fails then I'll have to grit my teeth and remove the cylinder head.

 

If it's down to 5 volts, I wouldn't expect miracles. Worth a try though I suppose; I once got a season out of two neglected batteries on a previous boat.

[FORTUNATA]

The tappets have lids on them with engraved numbers for thickness and so on. The story is I've now lubricated the injector bores and have removed the valve cover. I've seen the tappets opening and closing. There seems to be plenty of oil around the camshaft. There is still no major air intake as the engine is turned over but I must admit I'm beginning to suspect I need more battery power than I've had. The engine has to turn over water pump pullies and the belt to that seems a touch crooked.

After a few turnovers my battery tested just 12.4 volts or so. Originally they were using a truck battery with this engine so loads of CCA. Even then, rumour has it it was difficult to start up.

Here's the plan: I'll try turning it over with a bit more zap and see if compression improves. If not, the cylinder head will have to come off. That means I'll need to remove the timing belt, belt shield, sprockets, tensioner and so forth. For a non mechanic it's going to be a wee bit slow going and a lot of note taking to make sure I can get it all back together again. Still, the manual says it's fine to take off the cylinder head, complete with camshaft still intact.

 

Modern ones tend to go into the glowplug holes if the engine has them.

[larkshall]

For quick testing take fan belt off It cuts drag and reduces battery drain. If motor does start it can safely run for a minute or so

[smileypete]

The tappets have lids on them with engraved numbers for thickness and so on. The story is I've now lubricated the injector bores and have removed the valve cover. I've seen the tappets opening and closing. There seems to be plenty of oil around the camshaft. There is still no major air intake as the engine is turned over but I must admit I'm beginning to suspect I need more battery power than I've had. The engine has to turn over water pump pullies and the belt to that seems a touch crooked.

After a few turnovers my battery tested just 12.4 volts or so. Originally they were using a truck battery with this engine so loads of CCA. Even then, rumour has it it was difficult to start up.

Here's the plan: I'll try turning it over with a bit more zap and see if compression improves. If not, the cylinder head will have to come off. That means I'll need to remove the timing belt, belt shield, sprockets, tensioner and so forth. For a non mechanic it's going to be a wee bit slow going and a lot of note taking to make sure I can get it all back together again. Still, the manual says it's fine to take off the cylinder head, complete with camshaft still intact.

What sort of compression reading are you getting, and what does the Haynes manual say about non starting in the 'fault diagnosis' section?

 

Also helping to seal the bores/rings should be better with plain engine oil than WD40. But be aware of using too much creating 'hydraulic lock'

 

Even if compression is a bit poor it should start to fire on the heat from the gloplugs.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited July 26, 2010 by smileypete

[FORTUNATA]

Haynes refers to heater plugs or even timing as sources of non starting. Or maybe the stop solenoid.

There is something I plan on trying before I take the decision to remove the cylinder head. I've seen the tappet clearances don't seem to be too bad although you can see some smoke fumes coming up from the camshaft area. What I can't help but notice, though, is I have a crooked water pulley belt. This belt is taken from the crankshaft pulley and the same crankshaft pulley also drives the alternator. However, I imagine a great deal of horsepower is exhausted on hauling this water coooling system around via a visibly crooked belt. So, the plan now is to remove the crankshaft pulley which Haynes explains is bolted onto the crankshaft sprocket. 4 key bolts hold it on. They are, I discovered, dead tight so I just bought another, stronger tool. Once the pulley is off (if I can get it off), that will allow removal of the water pump belt. This will dramatically lessen the load on the engine and with two batteries wired up together theoretically the engine should move over muich faster. That may possibly increase air intake.

10 years or so is a long time for an engine to sit in all weathers and never started. To do that I may need 100 per cent turnover revs. If that doesn't work, though, I'll need to delve ever deeper. Removal of the cylinder head and compression tests will be in order. To remove the cylinder head will take me a while as I need to get the timing belt right and follow the manual carefully.

 

What sort of compression reading are you getting, and what does the Haynes manual say about non starting in the 'fault diagnosis' section?

 

Also helping to seal the bores/rings should be better with plain engine oil than WD40. But be aware of using too much creating 'hydraulic lock'

 

Even if compression is a bit poor it should start to fire on the heat from the gloplugs.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[RLWP]

You take the belt off by removing the alternator, not the crankshaft pulley. Just slacken all the mounting bolts on the alternator and the belt will come off easily

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

Sorry, it was difficult to describe the way this system has been put together. Normally the crankshaft pulley drives the alternator but with this set-up the boatbuilder welded another pulley to the crankshaft pulley and then another belt goes from that to the raw water cooling system below. I already took off the alternator belt. First time I ever did it too but the cambelt itself would be a very tricky job.

Really it's a pity they don't have Haynes manuals for Lister engines too as they describe every step of the way.

Will try to free the pulley later on being careful not to move the crankshaft.

 

 

You take the belt off by removing the alternator, not the crankshaft pulley. Just slacken all the mounting bolts on the alternator and the belt will come off easily

 

Richard

[choogh]

Please let me give you some free advice.. After reading your posts, I think that you have sufficient knowledge of engines to be Dangerous, but insufficient knowledge to be Competent. So heres the advice.

 

LEAVE IT ALONE.

 

The engine has sat outside in all weather for at least 4 years, the fuel will be contaminated, the alternator, belts and pulleys all will have suffered.

 

Use you new skills to REMOVE the engine and buy (£300) a replacement.

If you take the Cylinder head off, you will scrap the engine (it reads as scrap now anyway!!)and just what do you expect to see with the head off, Carbon effigies of Snow White and the Dwarfs?.. There is nothing you can do with the head off, that you cannot do by pouring WD40 down the injector holes..

 

If you MUST continue with this project. Here what you do.

 

Go and buy a heavy duty battery, not one you can carry in one hand from Halfords, one with two handles on the sides, one for you and one for your mate to carry the thing. Go buy 5ltrs of clean diesel. connect it to the fuel lines, do not put it in the fuel tank.

Check out the starter cables and makes sure all the connections are clean and TIGHT.

Place a towel over the engine and press the starter, the engine will blow out the old oil and WD 40 through the injector holes, (hence the towel)

Only turn the engine over for a few seconds...Remove the towel, Turn the engine over again..Now listen for any other sounds other than air whistling out of the injector holes, STOP if the rotation is hesitant or noisy, if so, try and get your money back on the battery, the engine's scrap.

Replace the injectors, bleed the pump. check oil in the sump, stand well back and turn the key. We are looking for smoke from the exhaust, any colour, but it will be white. If after a while there still is no sign of life and the battery is running down, check for fuel at the injectors, recharge the battery and try again. If after all that it still will not run., re read the advice at the top of this post.

Enjoy.

Edited August 3, 2010 by choogh

[Trix]

and buy (£300) a replacement.

 

apologies for the high jack but where do you find an engine for £300 everything ive looked at for this price needs a rebuild only need a small engine 8 hp ish

[choogh]

apologies for the high jack but where do you find an engine for £300 everything ive looked at for this price needs a rebuild only need a small engine 8 hp ish

 

The OP suggested a VW motor engine, not a marinised unit. Such engines are available from scrap yards for little money. (even in Italy!!!)

Edited August 3, 2010 by choogh

[FORTUNATA]

"If you take the Cylinder head off, you will scrap the engine (it reads as scrap now anyway!!)and just what do you expect to see with the head off, Carbon effigies of Snow White and the Dwarfs?.. There is nothing you can do with the head off, that you cannot do by pouring WD40 down the injector holes."

 

I don't think removal of a cylinder head is something out of the ordinary in all cases where there is an engine problem. It allows you to check for any major valve problems, including damaged valve seats. Further investigation can give access to pistons. It could very well be the case there's a compression issue.

 

"The engine has sat outside in all weather for at least 4 years, the fuel will be contaminated, the alternator, belts and pulleys all will have suffered."

 

You then go on from here and outline steps to take but most of these have already been taken. For the heavy duty battery, I coupled up two 12 volt batteries yesterday using jump leads and freed the water cooling system to reduce engine load. Diesel contamination has already been addressed so I'm not using the main tank. I fed an outboard tank with diesel directly to the engine some weeks back.

 

"if so, try and get your money back on the battery, the engine's scrap."

 

This may very well be the case. I turned it over fast yesterday and made sure the throttle was on full. The problem is very definitely insufficient air induction. If it ain't sucking and squeezing it's not going to pop either.

I do agree with your point it could well be worth my while to install a new diesel because it's hard to say how "far gone" the old one is. On the other hand, it could be a simple timing problem if someone did something I'm unaware of in the past.

Yes, it's bad but I can only conclude the experience on this old scrapper has been good for me so far. It's just sometimes it can get a bit depressing and frustrating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please let me give you some free advice.. After reading your posts, I think that you have sufficient knowledge of engines to be Dangerous, but insufficient knowledge to be Competent. So heres the advice.

 

LEAVE IT ALONE.

 

The engine has sat outside in all weather for at least 4 years, the fuel will be contaminated, the alternator, belts and pulleys all will have suffered.

 

Use you new skills to REMOVE the engine and buy (£300) a replacement.

If you take the Cylinder head off, you will scrap the engine (it reads as scrap now anyway!!)and just what do you expect to see with the head off, Carbon effigies of Snow White and the Dwarfs?.. There is nothing you can do with the head off, that you cannot do by pouring WD40 down the injector holes..

 

If you MUST continue with this project. Here what you do.

 

Go and buy a heavy duty battery, not one you can carry in one hand from Halfords, one with two handles on the sides, one for you and one for your mate to carry the thing. Go buy 5ltrs of clean diesel. connect it to the fuel lines, do not put it in the fuel tank.

Check out the starter cables and makes sure all the connections are clean and TIGHT.

Place a towel over the engine and press the starter, the engine will blow out the old oil and WD 40 through the injector holes, (hence the towel)

Only turn the engine over for a few seconds...Remove the towel, Turn the engine over again..Now listen for any other sounds other than air whistling out of the injector holes, STOP if the rotation is hesitant or noisy, if so, try and get your money back on the battery, the engine's scrap.

Replace the injectors, bleed the pump. check oil in the sump, stand well back and turn the key. We are looking for smoke from the exhaust, any colour, but it will be white. If after a while there still is no sign of life and the battery is running down, check for fuel at the injectors, recharge the battery and try again. If after all that it still will not run., re read the advice at the top of this post.

Enjoy.

[RLWP]

If it is a valve timing problem caused by someone in the past, and you have turned the engine over and bent the valves, then you would get poor compression, and a scrap engine.

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

My bet is you could probably get hold of marine diesels fairly cheap. In my case, the only snag could be a new engine may sit differently in the engine compartment so there could be complications lining up the former S-drive. The best suggestion I had so far was someone's thought about getting another V.W. engine, identical to the one I've got. Then swap them over and use the former one for spares as well as a bit of mechanical practice. However, now I'm told by those in the know that the particular engine is a bit rare. They're apparently quite hard to get hold of. If you can get one it would be around 450 pounds I think.

Needless to say the only option I haven't yet explored is timing. If it's out the manual says the engine won't start. If a mechanic at some point messed with the timing then that would explain a lot. I find it's not possible to determine TDC via the swirl chambers according to Haynes so I'd have to get a V.W., mechanic on it with the fixture tool.

Fun and games, I think.

P.S. I did get round to doing some cruising the other day. My Lister engine was running like clockwork. To avoid clapped out engine syndrome I suggest running an engine under load is a good, simple cure.

 

apologies for the high jack but where do you find an engine for £300 everything ive looked at for this price needs a rebuild only need a small engine 8 hp ish

Edited August 4, 2010 by FORTUNATA

[Naughty Cal]

Or not leaving it sat out in the rain for four years maybe

 

Fortunata, you are nothing but patient and im sure most would have given up on this lump months ago. Are you sure it is worth all of this time and effort?

[FORTUNATA]

There was a guy I met on a sailaway once and back then I knew zilch about engines. I was clueless. This guy offered to help. His real field was electrics but he had some knowledge of certain boat engines. However, I think on car engines he was almost as clueless as I was at the time. Anyway he "had a go at it". I wasn't there at the time but left him to get on with it. I recall he told me he was unable to get the injection pump off which now doesn't surprise me at all as you need a puller tool for the sprocket. However, if by chance he released the belt tensioner and somehow moved a sprocket, it's a bad scenario.

At any rate, the next steps will be:

(1) Check timing somehow.

(2) Remove cyclinder head and examine valves.

(3) Possibly remove the whole damned thing and put another engine in its place.

 

If it is a valve timing problem caused by someone in the past, and you have turned the engine over and bent the valves, then you would get poor compression, and a scrap engine.

 

Richard

[WotEver]

I find it's not possible to determine TDC via the swirl chambers according to Haynes...

If you have the injectors out, can you not simply stick a piece of wire down the hole and find TDC that way?

 

Tony