Engine Headaches

[FORTUNATA]

My latest attempt to start my marinised, V.W, 4 cylinder Golf Jetta is proving to be problematic. We now find there is a major induction problem so Easy Start had no effect. I had connected a fresh diesel supply to the fuel injection pump but now I find there is no induction. In other words the air intake ain't sucking in much air.

I'm now in the process of getting some more tools and plan to remove the injectors in order to get some oil to the valves. Maybe they're simply stuck.

It's possible but not likely the timing is out. I had the timing belt changed by a very competent mechanic some time ago and saw him mark the belt and pullies with red paint. He knew what he was doing as he was a garage mechanic with his own business. Unless the timing was already out before I had him change the belt.

Soooo, it could well be somehow I'll have to dismantle the cylinder head on my own. I have the engine manual and I have the intent to have a go but I wonder if this engine will ever run. I know one or two good mechanics but they're way more expensive that I could afford at this time so will have to learn as I go along. I'll be a bit limited in tools and lack the guages for injection pump timing and so on.

Still, the positive side is it would be nice to learn a bit about engines and I really have nothing to lose (except money for tools).

P.S. Since I was made redundant I now have time to give this a go but before the boat was just on dry standing.

Edited July 15, 2010 by FORTUNATA

[soldthehouse]

My latest attempt to start my marinised, V.W, 4 cylinder Golf Jetta is proving to be problematic. We now find there is a major induction problem so Easy Start had no effect. I had connected a fresh diesel supply to the fuel injection pump but now I find there is no induction. In other words the air intake ain't sucking in much air.

I'm now in the process of getting some more tools and plan to remove the injectors in order to get some oil to the valves. Maybe they're simply stuck.

It's possible but not likely the timing is out. I had the timing belt changed by a very competent mechanic some time ago and saw him mark the belt and pullies with red paint. He knew what he was doing as he was a garage mechanic with his own business. Unless the timing was already out before I had him change the belt.

Soooo, it could well be somehow I'll have to dismantle the cylinder head on my own. I have the engine manual and I have the intent to have a go but I wonder if this engine will ever run. I know one or two good mechanics but they're way more expensive that I could afford at this time so will have to learn as I go along. I'll be a bit limited in tools and lack the guages for injection pump timing and so on.

Still, the positive side is it would be nice to learn a bit about engines and I really have nothing to lose (except money for tools).

P.S. Since I was made redundant I now have time to give this a go but before the boat was just on dry standing.

Marking with red paint has the alarm bells ringing here. It doesnt mean thay will line up correctly in all cases. Apro would refer to index marks and pulley locking holes etc. May be worth checking the timing.

[Tony Brooks]

Marking with red paint has the alarm bells ringing here. It doesnt mean thay will line up correctly in all cases. Apro would refer to index marks and pulley locking holes etc. May be worth checking the timing.

 

 

Ditto

 

If one of my mv students had done that he would have had a stetson put on his head whist the rest of the class yelled yhee how .

 

If you are saying there is no suction on the inlet with your hand over it with the engine cranking it sounds very much like lack of compression. Now oil down the bores (via the injector holes) may solve it because the engine has stood for so long the bores are bone dry. However if the rings are stuck it may take several days of diesel down the bores (or penetrating oil) to even start to free them - even if you can. Whatever you do spin the engine on the starter with the injectors out to expel the surplus oil, you do not want a hydraulic lock and bent conrods - could this thing by any chance have sucked water up the intake before you got it?

 

I have known carbon fall off valves on engines that have to been run for a long time and jamb valves slightly open. That may also give the lack of suction. If this was a pushrod diesel I would tell you that we solved that one by disconnecting the alternator and using up to 36 volts to the starter, but not for very long, it gets very hot but spins like mad. However we knew the full and detailed history of our engines, I can not recommend that you try that.

 

Finally it could be simply worn out, but I would have expected some suction.

 

If you spanner the engine over can you feel the resistance of four compressions and compare that with another engine - any make will do?

[Gibbo]

Marking with red paint has the alarm bells ringing here. It doesnt mean thay will line up correctly in all cases.

 

But it could mean they're almost exactly 180 degrees wrong

[FORTUNATA]

Thanks, Tony. I'll study and follow your advice carefully and then let everybody know how things develop. My cousin who did the timing belt was actually very good as he also worked on aircraft engines and even built his own plane. I'm sure he would have locked the camshaft and injection pump sprocket and put the new belt on exactly in place. Also the conditions where he worked were tough to say the least as the engine was very cramped and boxed in. I have now removed all that boxing. Also, I once got a mechanic to take a look at it months ago and he claimed to have had the engine running. He told me by phone it ran fine but then started to sound rough after about 5 minutes. Last time I tried there was a boater giving me a hand and I think it was inducting air then.

"I have known carbon fall off valves on engines that have to been run for a long time and jamb valves slightly open."

This may well be the case. I'm hoping it is. We're talking about an engine that's been sitting for many years and totally neglected. The main fuel tank had water and chemicals in so I changed the feed to an outboard engine plastic tank, plus squeeze bulb. I can see injection taking place so long as the Bosch pump is electrically energised.

" Whatever you do spin the engine on the starter with the injectors out to expel the surplus oil, you do not want a hydraulic lock and bent conrods - could this thing by any chance have sucked water up the intake before you got it?"

Possibly. For all I know it may once even have partly sunk. I am now about to go and buy a suitable 25mm ring spanner in order to remove the injectors. I'll then take your suggestion and spin it a little before lubricating the bores.

The truth is I'm out of my depth as I'm not a mechanic as such but would love to be able to salvage this engine. If I have to I'll attempt removal of the timing belt and take off the cylinder head to get at the valves but I'll have to be sure I can time the engine properly on reassembly.

I just hope the engine isn't a dead duck but maybe if nothing else it gives an opportunity to learn something.

P.S. I don't think turnover is that brilliant. The alternator has a pulley that drives the water colloing system and the said belt seems to me a bit angled. The starter motor was believed to be slightly underpowered too for the engine, so I was once told by a former owner.

 

 

 

 

Ditto

 

If one of my mv students had done that he would have had a stetson put on his head whist the rest of the class yelled yhee how .

 

If you are saying there is no suction on the inlet with your hand over it with the engine cranking it sounds very much like lack of compression. Now oil down the bores (via the injector holes) may solve it because the engine has stood for so long the bores are bone dry. However if the rings are stuck it may take several days of diesel down the bores (or penetrating oil) to even start to free them - even if you can. Whatever you do spin the engine on the starter with the injectors out to expel the surplus oil, you do not want a hydraulic lock and bent conrods - could this thing by any chance have sucked water up the intake before you got it?

 

I have known carbon fall off valves on engines that have to been run for a long time and jamb valves slightly open. That may also give the lack of suction. If this was a pushrod diesel I would tell you that we solved that one by disconnecting the alternator and using up to 36 volts to the starter, but not for very long, it gets very hot but spins like mad. However we knew the full and detailed history of our engines, I can not recommend that you try that.

 

Finally it could be simply worn out, but I would have expected some suction.

 

If you spanner the engine over can you feel the resistance of four compressions and compare that with another engine - any make will do?

[Tony Brooks]

snip

 

I am now about to go and buy a suitable 25mm ring spanner in order to remove the injectors. I'll then take your suggestion and spin it a little before lubricating the bores.

 

snip

 

I never said this but do not buy a spanner if you already have one that fits the alternator pulley nut.

 

Horrible practise because of potential belt damage (probably over exaggerated) but push hard down on the belt between the alternator and one other pulley (usually the water pump on typical engines) and turn the alternator nut anticlockwise so you seem to be doing the nut up. If the belt tries to lift your fingers move to the other side of the alternator pulley where you will feel the belt dip as you turn the nut. keep firm pressure on the belt taking care a spare finger does not get caught between a pulley and belt - otherwise it may no longer be spare That should turn the engine.

[Gibbo]

turn the alternator nut anticlockwise so you seem to be doing the nut up

 

???

[soldthehouse]

But it could mean they're almost exactly 180 degrees wrong

Exactly

[Tony Brooks]

???

 

 

Well spotted (I assumed he would be standing behind the engine ) or thats my excuse, that and having Gibbo's post on my mind.

[nb Innisfree]

I always used to lock sprockets and mark them.

[FORTUNATA]

I'm having "mega" problems. The manual states the injectors should be removed with a 27 mm ring spanner. All I can say to that is it's not logical. There simply ain't enough room unless the Bosch Pump and other marinised tackle is taken off. So, I spent all day yesterday trying to find a 27 mm socket tool as thus far my own tools are pretty basic. Turns out it would cost me at least 90 pounds to get a socket set and now I'm glad I didn't as I borrowed a set earlier today. There I was in the pouring rain trying to work it all out and it seemed to me there still wasn't enough space to crank round a socket. Neither did the fit seem so good. Maybe an experienced mechanic could have gotten by but I'm a bit of a novice at this game.

The plot thickens: I popped round to Dales the diesel specialists and the mechanic there says he'd probably use some sort of socket extension tools but these cost big bucks. He also suggested maybe it was time I hired their services as I always seemed to be popping in fishing for advice. He suggested if they told every Tom, Dick and Harry how to do such and such a thing they'd never stay in business.

So, now I've settled for a box spanner. This costs around eight pounds and comes with a bar. I measured the amount of clearance I need and the sales guy says the box spanner allows some seven inches. I need six so seven is fine by me. Where it could get tricky is I've no idea if the said box spanner and lever will give me enough torque to remove the injectors. I won't know till Monday since they had to order it. maybe I can spray the injector with something to loosen the torque a bit and then have a go with the spanner.

By the way, as it rained down I happened to notice a date written on the engine. 1972! It's as I suspected. This is very much an old boat and back in the seventies fibreglass were all the rage. I bet this boat cruised only some time after the Beatles split up.

Anyone got any ideas as to how to remove the injectors with limited tools?

 

I never said this but do not buy a spanner if you already have one that fits the alternator pulley nut.

 

Horrible practise because of potential belt damage (probably over exaggerated) but push hard down on the belt between the alternator and one other pulley (usually the water pump on typical engines) and turn the alternator nut anticlockwise so you seem to be doing the nut up. If the belt tries to lift your fingers move to the other side of the alternator pulley where you will feel the belt dip as you turn the nut. keep firm pressure on the belt taking care a spare finger does not get caught between a pulley and belt - otherwise it may no longer be spare That should turn the engine.

[Gunna Do]

Before you strip the engine down to see if the valves are stuck, its worth taking the camcover off and checking the valve clearances. If you have a stuck valve the clearance will be huge! If the clearances are correct then you can cross stuck valves off the list.

Also check that the exhaust isn't blocked. If it can't get out then neither will it be able to get in!

Edited July 16, 2010 by Gunna Do

[FORTUNATA]

There's a valve cover which is taken off very easily. The cylinder head is another matter. If you want to get at the tapets then the cambelt is normally removed and cylinder head lifted. The camshaft is the overhead type. I may well have to bite the bullet and remove the cylinder head but it depends.

 

Before you strip the engine down to see if the valves are stuck, its worth taking the camcover off and checking the valve clearances. If you have a stuck valve the clearance will be huge! If the clearances are correct then you can cross stuck valves off the list.

Also check that the exhaust isn't blocked. If it can't get out then neither will it be able to get in!

[Thewatchmaker]

There's a valve cover which is taken off very easily. The cylinder head is another matter. If you want to get at the tapets then the cambelt is normally removed and cylinder head lifted. The camshaft is the overhead type. I may well have to bite the bullet and remove the cylinder head but it depends.

 

Just wondering how likely it is that all the valves would be stuck, or it least one on each cylinder?

[Guest]

i haven't done much work on diesels, but on petrol engines with problems for me the first test used to be a compression test on all pots (dry first then wet.) Can this not be done on a diesel? Would this not be the first port of call for an elderly engine that might need surgery?

[paulcatchpole]

i haven't done much work on diesels, but on petrol engines with problems for me the first test used to be a compression test on all pots (dry first then wet.) Can this not be done on a diesel? Would this not be the first port of call for an elderly engine that might need surgery?

 

Sounds reasonable to me, although even if it shows low/zero on one or more, it'd lead to optimism on my part about stuck rings and valves. I'd probably then spin it over with a few charged batteries lined up, until it goes, then hope it sorts itself out.

 

Of course, in the case of the missing big end bearing, it didn't fix itself...

 

PC

[Tony Brooks]

I'm having "mega" problems. The manual states the injectors should be removed with a 27 mm ring spanner. All I can say to that is it's not logical. There simply ain't enough room unless the Bosch Pump and other marinised tackle is taken off. So, I spent all day yesterday trying to find a 27 mm socket tool as thus far my own tools are pretty basic. Turns out it would cost me at least 90 pounds to get a socket set and now I'm glad I didn't as I borrowed a set earlier today. There I was in the pouring rain trying to work it all out and it seemed to me there still wasn't enough space to crank round a socket. Neither did the fit seem so good. Maybe an experienced mechanic could have gotten by but I'm a bit of a novice at this game.

The plot thickens: I popped round to Dales the diesel specialists and the mechanic there says he'd probably use some sort of socket extension tools but these cost big bucks. He also suggested maybe it was time I hired their services as I always seemed to be popping in fishing for advice. He suggested if they told every Tom, Dick and Harry how to do such and such a thing they'd never stay in business.

So, now I've settled for a box spanner. This costs around eight pounds and comes with a bar. I measured the amount of clearance I need and the sales guy says the box spanner allows some seven inches. I need six so seven is fine by me. Where it could get tricky is I've no idea if the said box spanner and lever will give me enough torque to remove the injectors. I won't know till Monday since they had to order it. maybe I can spray the injector with something to loosen the torque a bit and then have a go with the spanner.

By the way, as it rained down I happened to notice a date written on the engine. 1972! It's as I suspected. This is very much an old boat and back in the seventies fibreglass were all the rage. I bet this boat cruised only some time after the Beatles split up.

Anyone got any ideas as to how to remove the injectors with limited tools?

 

I would use an extra deep socket probably known as an injector socket and a knuckle bar about 14" long plus an extension bar if required. I would expect to get the socket for about £20. Get a price for the socket from MOTOR FACTORS (e.g. Partco) NOT Halfords.

[springy]

i haven't done much work on diesels, but on petrol engines with problems for me the first test used to be a compression test on all pots (dry first then wet.) Can this not be done on a diesel? Would this not be the first port of call for an elderly engine that might need surgery?

 

Yes you can do a compression test on a diesel (you need to use an appropriate gauge - one

for a petrol will not do) BUT you need to remove the injectors to do it which was the OPs

starting point. Stuck valves may be apparent by removing the cam cover - I'm not sure

whether these engines have shimmed or hydraulic tappets - if they are shimmed then

the excessive clearance may well be obvious, however if they are hydraulic it will be difficult

to tell for sure. However it is unlikely (but not impossible) that valves will be stuck on all

4 cylinders - when the engine was stationary only two of the eight valves would be open.

Stuck rings is more likely if all four cylinders are affected.

 

springy

[steelaway]

I think with your mechanical knowledge and lack of tools you dont want to be taking off any cylinder heads.

You need a mechanic for an hour to have a look at it, it may save you alot of grief and money.

Bite the bullet and ask the diesel people to come down for a look.

 

 

Alex

[PhilR]

I think with your mechanical knowledge and lack of tools you dont want to be taking off any cylinder heads.

You need a mechanic for an hour to have a look at it, it may save you alot of grief and money.

Bite the bullet and ask the diesel people to come down for a look.

 

 

Alex

 

That sounds good advice to me. A stripped thread or incorrectly torqued head/valve clearances etc could prove expensive.

 

I have done some fairly major repairs on OLD cars in my youth, but I must admit, at times, I had a feeling

of trepidation, even with the correct tools. Spares for old or modern marine diesel engines are now very expensive.

I only do engine repairs/maintenance that I feel comfortable with and which are within my limited experience.

 

As Alex suggested - bite the bullet and ask an expert to take a look. Without a torque wrench, proper socket set etc ..... and workshop manual you might

make matters far worse ......... and more expensive.

 

Phil

Edited July 16, 2010 by PhilR

[Tony Brooks]

Yes you can do a compression test on a diesel (you need to use an appropriate gauge - one

for a petrol will not do) BUT you need to remove the injectors to do it which was the OPs

starting point. Stuck valves may be apparent by removing the cam cover - I'm not sure

whether these engines have shimmed or hydraulic tappets - if they are shimmed then

the excessive clearance may well be obvious, however if they are hydraulic it will be difficult

to tell for sure. However it is unlikely (but not impossible) that valves will be stuck on all

4 cylinders - when the engine was stationary only two of the eight valves would be open.

Stuck rings is more likely if all four cylinders are affected.

 

springy

 

 

Modern ones tend to go into the glowplug holes if the engine has them.

[bargemast]

Question: "Why don't you get your cousin, that's supposed to be such a good mechanic (post #5) to come and give you a hand ?"

 

Suggestion: Buy yourself a Haynes book of this VW-engine, with the information needed about the timing marks, injector removal etc. or check if they have a book like that in your local library or on eBay.

 

Peter.

Edited July 17, 2010 by bargemast

[FORTUNATA]

I never mentioned it but I'm afraid he died some years ago after an air crash. Yes, he was an excellent mechanic and was fixing up diesels even as a teenager. Later he got involved with aircrafts but every so often light aircraft pilots become statistics. Even John Denver was killed while piloting so it's a fairly dangerous occupation. Boating is less dangerous but as we know even boating has been known to bring about deaths.

No hard feelings on my part as you didn't know.

I do have the Haynes manual. I probably read it 20 times over and am going through it again. Sure, I can remove the valve cover and that will give access to the tapets.

 

 

Question: "Why don't you get your cousin, that's supposed to be such a good mechanic (post #5) to come and give you a hand ?"

 

Suggestion: Buy yourself a Haynes book of this VW-engine, with the information needed about the timing marks, injector removal etc. or check if they have a book like that in your local library or on eBay.

 

Peter.

[FORTUNATA]

Not an option and definitely not cost effective if it's a very old and iffy engine. Mechanics charge around 40 pounds an hour if not more. It would be far more cost effective to install a new engine (second hand for maybe 300 pounds) and just use the old one for a bit of practice.

However, to remove the cylinder head I'd first have to remove the timing belt and sprockets. Then the cylinder head bolts would have to be removed in a set sequence. Then I'd have to decide if the valve condition, cylinders and pistons need more expert attention and price up a suitable engineering firm. I believe I could get the cylinder head off if I take my time but will try some more basic lubrication first. Who knows it may be just a bit seized up.

 

 

I think with your mechanical knowledge and lack of tools you dont want to be taking off any cylinder heads.

You need a mechanic for an hour to have a look at it, it may save you alot of grief and money.

Bite the bullet and ask the diesel people to come down for a look.

 

 

Alex

 

 

I tried Motor Factors. The guy wasn't quite sure what would be the best option. I ordered the box spanner for Monday from a tools specialist and if that doesn't do the trick I'll call at Motor Factors again. I guess I can also remove the valve cover while I'm at it.

If it succeeds do I need to get new heat shields for the injectors or is it best to do that later on if the engine runs? The same question regarding the valve cover gasket.

 

I would use an extra deep socket probably known as an injector socket and a knuckle bar about 14" long plus an extension bar if required. I would expect to get the socket for about £20. Get a price for the socket from MOTOR FACTORS (e.g. Partco) NOT Halfords.

Edited July 17, 2010 by FORTUNATA

[bargemast]

I never mentioned it but I'm afraid he died some years ago after an air crash. Yes, he was an excellent mechanic and was fixing up diesels even as a teenager. Later he got involved with aircrafts but every so often light aircraft pilots become statistics. Even John Denver was killed while piloting so it's a fairly dangerous occupation. Boating is less dangerous but as we know even boating has been known to bring about deaths.

No hard feelings on my part as you didn't know.

I do have the Haynes manual. I probably read it 20 times over and am going through it again. Sure, I can remove the valve cover and that will give access to the tapets.

 

 

I'm terribly sorry to read about your cousin, I've lost 2 friends in 2 plane-crashes, it's always hard to loose family and friends.

 

In the Haynes manuel they show you the marks on the camshaft, injectionpump and all the other stuff driven by the belt in relation to each other.

 

Your idea of buying another engine (one that is still running) is maybe the better idea, but there again to play safe you should put a new timing belt on, as if they go your engine is gone.

 

Good luck,

 

Peter.