Engine Headaches

[FORTUNATA]

Absolutely. It does me no harm at all. I even recommend it to other folks. Here's the reasoning: I've already learned how to do alternator belts, remove injectors, change filters, change oil and take off rocker covers. It's basic stuff, I know but scrappy engines are good to star on. I figure in future I won't have to pay out for these routine tasks to be done and can hopefully tackle the basics myself.

The only thing to watch of course is when you start shelling out large sums of money on a possible fruitless task. Maybe at this point it would be wise to see if I can get another identical engine.

 

 

Or not leaving it sat out in the rain for four years maybe

 

Fortunata, you are nothing but patient and im sure most would have given up on this lump months ago. Are you sure it is worth all of this time and effort?

 

 

It's indirect injection. I don't know why the Haynes manual says you can't use that injector probe system. They give no reason. All I know is there is some setting fixture tool for checking timing when the transmission has been removed. I'll find out at the V.W. garage next time I go down.

 

If you have the injectors out, can you not simply stick a piece of wire down the hole and find TDC that way?

 

Tony

[RLWP]

Unfortunately, and the evidence can be seen in all the dismantled classic cars gathering dust in garages, taking things apart isn't what you pay for. It's understanding what you see and knowing if you should put it back, mend it or replace it, followed by knowing how to put it back properly.

 

Still, I can't see you are going to lose anything but time in taking the head off, and there are a lot of things I took apart and never put back together in my past.

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

"and im sure most would have given up on this lump months ago"

 

The mind boggles as to all the people who pleaded and begged with me to buy this boat after the former owner passed away all deserted me. At the time they offered all sorts of help. It actually runs perfectly well on outboard and it now comes in useful for storage too. Back in the early seventies most of the boats seen on the waterways were fibreglass boats such as this so far as pleasure cruising goes. My local rag shows pics of early seventies where you see smartly dressed folk cruising the canal quite happily on a fibreglass vessel.

 

Or not leaving it sat out in the rain for four years maybe

 

Fortunata, you are nothing but patient and im sure most would have given up on this lump months ago. Are you sure it is worth all of this time and effort?

Edited August 4, 2010 by FORTUNATA

[WotEver]

... there are a lot of things I took apart and never put back together in my past.

I generally used to put them back together and was always amazed at how many nuts, bolts, screws, washers and other sundries I had left over whenever I'd finished. I acquired quite a collection over the years, all of which I kept because

• I might discover where they go
  
• They might come in useful one day
  

.

 

Tony

[Naughty Cal]

I generally used to put them back together and was always amazed at how many nuts, bolts, screws, washers and other sundries I had left over whenever I'd finished. I acquired quite a collection over the years, all of which I kept because

• I might discover where they go
  
• They might come in useful one day
  

.

 

Tony

 

Yep we are good at that as well.

 

We have three boxes of assorted items that came off of the sierra when we stripped it but never went back on when we rebuilt it

[WotEver]

Yep we are good at that as well.

 

We have three boxes of assorted items that came off of the sierra when we stripped it but never went back on when we rebuilt it

Just think how much money the manufacturers could save if they never fitted those bits in the first place...

 

Tony

[Naughty Cal]

Just think how much money the manufacturers could save if they never fitted those bits in the first place...

 

Tony

 

Exactly. The car has worked perfectly well for four years without them

[FORTUNATA]

I try to go very very slowly. Most of my mechanical experience to date is normally with cycles. Boat mechanics is a step way up the ladder. I think in this case if I do go ahead it will be a case of noting down every step taken and even possibly taking the odd pic with the mobile phone camera. I do know thus far cylinder head removal doesn't have to be disastrous. You can take it off along with the camshaft if you choose. The most tricky part for sure is the fact once the timing belt is off you need to make damned sure you can put it back on correctly. For that, I won't be reluctant to seek help because the tools can be quite expensive. Still, sure, segment everything and label all the parts and make sketches or whatever.

I did notice someone forgot to put the heat shileds back in the injector bores.

 

I generally used to put them back together and was always amazed at how many nuts, bolts, screws, washers and other sundries I had left over whenever I'd finished. I acquired quite a collection over the years, all of which I kept because

• I might discover where they go
  
• They might come in useful one day
  

.

 

Tony

[WotEver]

I did notice someone forgot to put the heat shileds back in the injector bores.

More bits for the box

[choogh]

" I turned it over fast yesterday and made sure the throttle was on full."

 

When you did this, was there any mechanical noises, like knocking, thuds etc. and have you taken the rocker cover off and checked the valve rockers, with the engine turning over "fast", you should be able to see them all "dance", if one is out or the valve bent you will quickly notice..If they are all "dancing", it's unlikely to be a valve problem, perhaps piston rings, taking the head off will not solve tha... Ohh.. hang on.... perhaps theres no pistons..or, the ones you have are holed, corroded, missing....!!! Seriously, enjoy the experience, sort out the problem, just to have peace of mind and gain experience.. Then buy a replacement engine. VW engines are not at all rare, the bell housings are all similar in the model range and if not, adaptor plates can be made cheaply..

Otherwise, I fear you going to live with this sodding engine for the rest of the boats life.. And don't worry about engine mounts either...

[RLWP]

For the rest of this unfitted, fibreglass boat's life IIRC

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

"and have you taken the rocker cover off and checked the valve rockers, with the engine turning over "fast", "

 

If you notice some earlier posts, yes, I mentioned I took the valve cover off. The tappets are moving but last night I discovered the clearances in millimetres for the said tappets. These can be checked with a feeler guage (if I can get one somewhere).

There could indeed be a cracked piston or (more likely) scraper ring problems.

However, before taking off the cylinder head I now plan to delve into any possible timing problems because the manual does state timing can be a source of non starting. It could well be someone altered or tried to remove the belt. I have a vague plan as to how I might be able to check the timing before taking too much gear apart.

There is clearly some problem somewhere and when you don't have any engine history at all it makes life complicated.

It's as you say, in some ways it's a headache but in other ways it could be fun.

 

" I turned it over fast yesterday and made sure the throttle was on full."

 

When you did this, was there any mechanical noises, like knocking, thuds etc. and have you taken the rocker cover off and checked the valve rockers, with the engine turning over "fast", you should be able to see them all "dance", if one is out or the valve bent you will quickly notice..If they are all "dancing", it's unlikely to be a valve problem, perhaps piston rings, taking the head off will not solve tha... Ohh.. hang on.... perhaps theres no pistons..or, the ones you have are holed, corroded, missing....!!! Seriously, enjoy the experience, sort out the problem, just to have peace of mind and gain experience.. Then buy a replacement engine. VW engines are not at all rare, the bell housings are all similar in the model range and if not, adaptor plates can be made cheaply..

Otherwise, I fear you going to live with this sodding engine for the rest of the boats life.. And don't worry about engine mounts either...

[FORTUNATA]

There's an article in canal magazine some months back about a guy who decided to restore a totally clapped out International 3 cylinder engine. It was built in the thirties. His icebreaker boat had been knocked down in the sale price on account of the engine being a bit suspect. Then, only a few weeks into ownership the engine refused to start and the new owner called out a Russel Newberry engineer to take a look. The engineer got it to go but warned the engine condition was pretty lousy and more problems were bound to arise as time went by. So, the owner considered a major engine overhaul. The quoted figure was around 15 K but it would leave the owner with perhaps the only 3 cylinder International engine on the waterways. When they took the engine apart it became clear this was the only option as virtually all the bearings and con rods and gaskets were knackered. Getting replacements wasn't easy either. In the end the engine was fully restored but it was a very expensive do at 35 pound an hour for many hours labour in the factory.

Of course, there's a big difference between a proper vintage boat engine and any old engine. Whether the boat owner gets his money back in added value to the boat is a matter for debate.

[Naughty Cal]

There's an article in canal magazine some months back about a guy who decided to restore a totally clapped out International 3 cylinder engine. It was built in the thirties. His icebreaker boat had been knocked down in the sale price on account of the engine being a bit suspect. Then, only a few weeks into ownership the engine refused to start and the new owner called out a Russel Newberry engineer to take a look. The engineer got it to go but warned the engine condition was pretty lousy and more problems were bound to arise as time went by. So, the owner considered a major engine overhaul. The quoted figure was around 15 K but it would leave the owner with perhaps the only 3 cylinder International engine on the waterways. When they took the engine apart it became clear this was the only option as virtually all the bearings and con rods and gaskets were knackered. Getting replacements wasn't easy either. In the end the engine was fully restored but it was a very expensive do at 35 pound an hour for many hours labour in the factory.

Of course, there's a big difference between a proper vintage boat engine and any old engine. Whether the boat owner gets his money back in added value to the boat is a matter for debate.

 

I think the difference in this case is that the engine is something af a rarity.

[FORTUNATA]

I'm not sure why that shouldn't be the case and have wondered about it. I know this is an indirect injection engine and the injector bores have these pre-combustion inserts or whatever term you might choose. You would think though a piece of wire would allow for determining TDC. Yet the Haynes manual states it's not possible to do this (no reason given as to why).

By the way, I should add I have found some time to take my other boat out while all this has been going on. The other day I cruised out alone and seemed to have gotten a lot better with the tiller. It was the first time I tried using reverse to turn my boat around although I did very nearly get grounded at one very shallow point in the canal.

 

 

 

If you have the injectors out, can you not simply stick a piece of wire down the hole and find TDC that way?

 

Tony

[smileypete]

"and have you taken the rocker cover off and checked the valve rockers, with the engine turning over "fast", "

 

If you notice some earlier posts, yes, I mentioned I took the valve cover off. The tappets are moving but last night I discovered the clearances in millimetres for the said tappets. These can be checked with a feeler guage (if I can get one somewhere).

There could indeed be a cracked piston or (more likely) scraper ring problems.

However, before taking off the cylinder head I now plan to delve into any possible timing problems because the manual does state timing can be a source of non starting. It could well be someone altered or tried to remove the belt. I have a vague plan as to how I might be able to check the timing before taking too much gear apart.

There is clearly some problem somewhere and when you don't have any engine history at all it makes life complicated.

It's as you say, in some ways it's a headache but in other ways it could be fun.

Something might be worth trying is mark the position of the injector pump then move the pump while cranking. Would not help if the timing is really far out.

 

Other things worth considering include (but not limited to): decent battery, clean fuel from a can then bleed and bleed and bleeed, new fuel filter, gloplug continuity and voltage at gloplugs under cranking, voltage at starter under cranking.

 

If finding TDC is a problem there might be a marker on the crankshaft pulley, or try a long piece of brake cable or wire. If pretty desparate maybe drop the sump just enough to see in at the crankshaft.

 

Best to work through the fault diagnosis of the Haynes manual as thoroughly as possible in the order they suggest.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited August 5, 2010 by smileypete

[FadeToScarlet]

There's an article in canal magazine some months back about a guy who decided to restore a totally clapped out International 3 cylinder engine. It was built in the thirties. His icebreaker boat had been knocked down in the sale price on account of the engine being a bit suspect. Then, only a few weeks into ownership the engine refused to start and the new owner called out a Russel Newberry engineer to take a look. The engineer got it to go but warned the engine condition was pretty lousy and more problems were bound to arise as time went by. So, the owner considered a major engine overhaul. The quoted figure was around 15 K but it would leave the owner with perhaps the only 3 cylinder International engine on the waterways. When they took the engine apart it became clear this was the only option as virtually all the bearings and con rods and gaskets were knackered. Getting replacements wasn't easy either. In the end the engine was fully restored but it was a very expensive do at 35 pound an hour for many hours labour in the factory.

Of course, there's a big difference between a proper vintage boat engine and any old engine. Whether the boat owner gets his money back in added value to the boat is a matter for debate.

 

I don't think she'll like being called a "he"!

 

(user Chertsey on this forum, btw)

[FORTUNATA]

Fuel supply and batteries as well as bleeding and so on have been well covered by everybody and then addressed by myself. All of this has been tried. The conclusion appears to be now the engine isn't inducting air and there lies the problem. So, I'm afraid it's either a serious compression problem, a stuck valve, knackered scraper rings or even shot valves. Or alternatively it may be a timing problem.

Time to move on, I guess. It's off with the cylinder head. I've spent some time reading up on the process and the tools required and I guess I'm ready to go. This will tell me whether a valve is stuck, bent or even the pistons may be at fault. It will also allow me to set the timing on reassembly.

As for the injection pump timing you mention this is normally set or checked with a special dial guage. I'd have to get a V.W. guy on it who has all the kit.

 

 

Something might be worth trying is mark the position of the injector pump then move the pump while cranking. Would not help if the timing is really far out.

 

Other things worth considering include (but not limited to): decent battery, clean fuel from a can then bleed and bleed and bleeed, new fuel filter, gloplug continuity and voltage at gloplugs under cranking, voltage at starter under cranking.

 

If finding TDC is a problem there might be a marker on the crankshaft pulley, or try a long piece of brake cable or wire. If pretty desparate maybe drop the sump just enough to see in at the crankshaft.

 

Best to work through the fault diagnosis of the Haynes manual as thoroughly as possible in the order they suggest.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[smileypete]

Fuel supply and batteries as well as bleeding and so on have been well covered by everybody and then addressed by myself. All of this has been tried. The conclusion appears to be now the engine isn't inducting air and there lies the problem. So, I'm afraid it's either a serious compression problem, a stuck valve, knackered scraper rings or even shot valves. Or alternatively it may be a timing problem.

Time to move on, I guess. It's off with the cylinder head. I've spent some time reading up on the process and the tools required and I guess I'm ready to go. This will tell me whether a valve is stuck, bent or even the pistons may be at fault. It will also allow me to set the timing on reassembly.

As for the injection pump timing you mention this is normally set or checked with a special dial guage. I'd have to get a V.W. guy on it who has all the kit.

I don't think anyone here is recommending the head is removed.

 

Why do you feel the engine isn't inducting air?

 

I haven't yet seen any compression readings for each cylinder, with or without a little oil (not WD40) added to help the rings seal.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited August 6, 2010 by smileypete

[FORTUNATA]

Well, the thing is I'm led to believe compression tests are pretty expensive. I may be able to get one done on the cheap perhaps.

Everyone who's looked at the engine so far (mostly boatyard mechanics) all agree there seems to be very little air being sucked in through the air intake. I tried Easy Start with 2 batteries coupled up together and basically there wasn't enough suction to draw the Easy Start in. I've put my hand across the air intake and it does seem a bit feeble. I had a look at the tappets and these are going up and down. If I want I can measure the clearances with a feeler guage.

So, I've been reading the manual quite a lot and trying to figure it all out. The valves need to be working so air can be sucked in and then compressed by the pistons. This will make the cylinders hot. Diesel needs to be sprayed into the piston at exactly the right time to detonate.

To be honest, my belief is I will hopefully get this engine working again. I'm convinced there is either a timing fault or a valve or compression problem. It would be convenient to somehow check the timing without taking the head off but this would be tricky. There is no transmission any more but only a Z drive. I figured on maybe using a wire to feel the first cylinder piston at TDC and then checking the cam lobes to determine if the valves are closed on compression. I may even try that before disassembly.

I've had a few other things to be doing these past few days but will resume very shortly.

 

I don't think anyone here is recommending the head is removed.

 

Why do you feel the engine isn't inducting air?

 

I haven't yet seen any compression readings for each cylinder, with or without a little oil (not WD40) added to help the rings seal.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[paulcatchpole]

Well, the thing is I'm led to believe compression tests are pretty expensive. I may be able to get one done on the cheap perhaps.

Everyone who's looked at the engine so far (mostly boatyard mechanics) all agree there seems to be very little air being sucked in through the air intake. I tried Easy Start with 2 batteries coupled up together and basically there wasn't enough suction to draw the Easy Start in. I've put my hand across the air intake and it does seem a bit feeble. I had a look at the tappets and these are going up and down. If I want I can measure the clearances with a feeler guage.

So, I've been reading the manual quite a lot and trying to figure it all out. The valves need to be working so air can be sucked in and then compressed by the pistons. This will make the cylinders hot. Diesel needs to be sprayed into the piston at exactly the right time to detonate.

To be honest, my belief is I will hopefully get this engine working again. I'm convinced there is either a timing fault or a valve or compression problem. It would be convenient to somehow check the timing without taking the head off but this would be tricky. There is no transmission any more but only a Z drive. I figured on maybe using a wire to feel the first cylinder piston at TDC and then checking the cam lobes to determine if the valves are closed on compression. I may even try that before disassembly.

I've had a few other things to be doing these past few days but will resume very shortly.

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Professional-Diesel-...=item3cafb2dc6d

 

£39 + del. You might be able to find someone to borrow one off, perhaps?

 

 

I'd be tempted to say that, since you've had people look at this engine, that somebody must've been able to tell the difference between some compression and the whizzy feeling of b*gger-all compression?

 

I can't remember now, with the different twists and turns of the thread, whether you've got smoke of any colour out of the exhaust? If not, then there's no fuel going in, right time or otherwise. Presumably, you've bled this thing to the point of having fuel dripping from the injector unions when cracked open a notch?

 

PC

[FORTUNATA]

Thanks for the info. I may well try a compression test as well as see if timing can be checked. However, I think my gut instinct now is the way to go is to overhaul the engine since it's marked 1972 and is bound to need decarbonising and cleaning.

Yes, I'm told there is some smoke coming from the exhaust and I know the fuel injection pump works although the injectors themselves probably need some service. Heat shields were also absent.

I'll let you all know how it goes. My plan is to remove the timing belt, various manifolds as required and lift the head off to check valve condition, clearances and so on. To be honest I'm expecting to see some major valve issue, if I'm lucky just one that is stuck.

To reset timing the plan is to manually turn piston no 1 to TDC on compression and then either lock or carefully mark the sprocket. According to my swatting up the piston at TDC should project slghtly from the head. Next will come the very tricky bit, which will be to fix the head back on and set the camshaft with closed valves for cylinder one. Neither shaft must move once set and then the belt will have to be slid onto all sprockets. As for fuel injection pump there are markings but it would be best to get a V.W. guy to set that with the guage tool.

As I've never done this before I'll try and get my work checked or even supervised by a V.W. old hand. It actually took my cousin 15 minutes to do the belt but now I can see why it had to be done a certain way. With limited access and no transmission you've only got certain options.

Needless to say everything that can be cleaned will be cleaned.

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Professional-Diesel-...=item3cafb2dc6d

 

£39 + del. You might be able to find someone to borrow one off, perhaps?

 

 

I'd be tempted to say that, since you've had people look at this engine, that somebody must've been able to tell the difference between some compression and the whizzy feeling of b*gger-all compression?

 

I can't remember now, with the different twists and turns of the thread, whether you've got smoke of any colour out of the exhaust? If not, then there's no fuel going in, right time or otherwise. Presumably, you've bled this thing to the point of having fuel dripping from the injector unions when cracked open a notch?

 

PC

Edited August 7, 2010 by FORTUNATA

[RLWP]

Are there no timing marks on the crankshaft pulley and cam gears?

 

Richard

Edited August 7, 2010 by RLWP

[FORTUNATA]

You raise an interesting point - the timing. I've now started to slowly dismantle the engine but am taking it really easy and in no hurry at all. There is a timing mark on the fuel injection pump sprocket and tbis has to be lined up with the housing. I now have a strong feeling somebody may have moved this sprocket which would mean injection is out of time with the valves. It seems the most sensibe thing that can be done is to remove the head, clean and check all cylinder head valves and so on then set Top Dead Centre manually on the crankshaft. In fact this is what Haynes recommends. I then know via Haynes that both valves for the cyclinder should be closed (which can be done manually). That leaves the injection pump but this has timing marks on the sprocket. So long as no shaft moves or so long as I carefully mark the sprockets with paint against the casing at TDC, I figure the engine is going to be timed correctly. I may be able to get timing checked by a V.W. technician who would have a special tool but it may not be so easy if the engine isn't removed fully (to give access to the flywheel). As for the lift on the pump (tested with a vial guage) I'll get a specialist to do that for me.

It's funny but now the engine is down to just the sprockets and the timing belt cover off I can see exactly how my cousin did the job I paid 50 pounds to have done (changing of timing belt). I know a lot of engineers frown on the practice but if you very carefully mark your sprockets and pullies with paint against the engine housing, you can line it all up with the toothed belt. It has to be bang on the sprocket tooth and all pullies checked once the belt is tightened. My cousin would have done it that way as you can't get at the flywheel so I guess he went for the "quick fix". Back then I simply didn't have a clue about engines.

By the way, it may well be I'll never get this engine to run but it's turning out to be quite educational. I'm just going very slow and am ready to remove the timing belt, manifolds and cylinder head.

 

Are there no timing marks on the crankshaft pulley and cam gears?

 

Richard

Edited August 9, 2010 by FORTUNATA

[RLWP]

If you look at the camshaft gearwheel(s) are there any marks on the rim? I'd expect to find a radial slot or something like that cast or cut into it/them.

 

Don't forget, this engine was once put together by people on a production line. They must have had something to show them how to time the parts in the factory

 

How many camshafts has this engine got? For that matter, apart from a Volkswagen engine, can you identify it at all?

 

Richard