Engine Headaches

[FORTUNATA]

I don't recall any marks at all on the camshaft or crankshaft so far as the engine manual goes. There may be a mark on the camshaft sprocket but I can't quite remember. The injection sprocket does have a mark that's mentioned in the book. Basically, the old V.W. engines tend to use a lot of specialised tools with dials and guages which I obviously lack. However, I can say the manual tells you to set TDC by simply hand cranking over the shaft till the piston slightly projects from the cylinder and, of course, you can also measure clearances in mm. If you want to recheck TDC on reassemby there are then the timing tools you can use just to check all is O.K. These probably cost big bucks.

As for camshafts it's an overhead set-up with one camshaft. There is also something called the intermediate shaft which I'm not really so clued up on. All I know is it has to do with distribution. The important thing for me at this point is the timing belt runs over the camshaft sprocket, fuel injection pump sprocket and crankshaft sprocket and I know these shafts need to be correctly synchronised.

Model: A seventies V.W. Jetta. They remove the original transmission, stuff the engine into your boat and then connect the shaft to an Outdrive. This outdrive is in dire shape but it does run.

 

If you look at the camshaft gearwheel(s) are there any marks on the rim? I'd expect to find a radial slot or something like that cast or cut into it/them.

 

Don't forget, this engine was once put together by people on a production line. They must have had something to show them how to time the parts in the factory

 

How many camshafts has this engine got? For that matter, apart from a Volkswagen engine, can you identify it at all?

 

Richard

 

 

P.S. I've been told this engine is a bit on the rare side for the age of it. It may have come after the Rabbit.

 

If you look at the camshaft gearwheel(s) are there any marks on the rim? I'd expect to find a radial slot or something like that cast or cut into it/them.

 

Don't forget, this engine was once put together by people on a production line. They must have had something to show them how to time the parts in the factory

 

How many camshafts has this engine got? For that matter, apart from a Volkswagen engine, can you identify it at all?

 

Richard

[RLWP]

Is that what they would call an A1 1.6 diesel engine? I've been trying to google up something useful. Unfortunately, all I can find are threads about non-starting diesel engines...

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

It probably is. Ages ago I was lucky enough to find a Golf and Jetta Haynes manual so it's been pretty valuable to this day. The problem I've had is locating similar engines since I figured possibly I could always fit another model if the old one turns out to be too expensive to put right. I called at garages and the mechanics tell me this is pretty much an old engine you can't get so easily. It's strange to be trying to learn about an engine you'd never normally associate with a boat. Normally they use Fords for marinisation. However, the engine is really very straightforward with nothing added that wouldn't be needed. I imagine modern V.W. engines today would be light years ahead of my old banger.

I was wondering about starting a blog about the experience because even if the engine is put right, then I have the even more banged up Enfield to service and remount.

 

 

Is that what they would call an A1 1.6 diesel engine? I've been trying to google up something useful. Unfortunately, all I can find are threads about non-starting diesel engines...

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

UPDATE

Not much been going on as I'm looking after the pooch a bit more (his owner is on holiday) plus did my sports session yesterday. Then today it began to pour with rain - big time.

I have a very strong suspicion someone messed with the timing. I suspect the fuel injection pump sprocket has been moved so it's not set at TDC when the camshaft and crankshaft are at TDC. There are no marks on the sprockets or pullies. The timing is probably out just a little but probably not bad enough to have damaged the engine. I'm optimistic it can be sorted out.

Also there is the Enfield outdrive. This will need a bit of work. Later I may need to get hold of a service manual for it.

[gazznhelz]

Bloomin eck, are you still faffin about with this engine, i remember you playing with it years ago and getting nowhere,

 

i think i mentioned this last time when i replied to you, but that engine is basicaly a 4 cylinder version of the 6 cylinder engine fitted to VW LT's, of which i had one, and played with the engine a fair bit,

 

the injection timing is ran off the back end of the cam shaft, the valve timing is set using a flat bar in the end of the camshaft at the injector pump end, with the pump drive sprocket removed, there's a slot, the flat bar gies in when the camshaft is aligned properly, and the timing mark on the flywheel lines up for the bottom end timing,

 

the top sprocket for the valve timing is an interfeerance fit, so it can be set anywhere if you dont know what your doing, a few degrees out and it'll run bad, a few more degrees out and it'll bend the valves.

 

the pump timing needs setting up with a dial gauge, no other way to do it, it's set to be so many hundreds of a millimeter at TDC, the manual will tell you the exact figure, for my engine it was 0.80 i believe, if set at 0.95, it knocked more but gave slightly better power and fuel economy, at 0.70 is was very quiet, lower on power, smoked a bit and a bit worse on economy.

 

yes the engine is indirect injection, you cant stick a bit of wire down the injector hole and have it rest on the piston top, as the injector hole is to the side of the pistons, you'd have to put a Z bend in the wire to get it to touch the piston, then find a way to thread it into the pre combustion chamber, past the glow plug, around the atomization nipple and down the hole to the piston, then figure out how to get it to show you when the piston is at tdc.

 

these engines need a good dose of glow plugs to get going, you havent mentioned doing so, even with easy start, if its a bit worn it most likely wont fire if no glow was applied, that's assuming the glow plugs are even working.

 

also the injection pump will have a cold start advance lever, has that been pulled all the way accross, as again, with it in the run osition, it wont help... my 6 pot engine would take a good 30 seconds to get going without the cold start knobbeing pulled out on the dash, and that was with perfectly working glow plugs that had been allowed to time out.

 

you said you saw a puff of smoke from the exhaust, that shows at least one cylinder had partialy ignited some fuel,

 

but you also mention the lack of 3 heat shields, without them the injector nozzles and pintles will seize up, so it could be that you only had one cylinder actually injecting,

 

i do honnestly think you are fighting a loosing battle tho, and taking the head off may well ensure you never get this engine running again,

the 6 pot engine was notorious for cracking the head, and both that and the 4 pot version likes to crack between the valves and pre-combustion chamber insert, sometimes upon removing the head, the insert falls out, and you can't use super glue to stick it back in

 

but if the head was not warped too badly and not cracked, you'd need a head skim, then you need to buy a new set of stretch bolts, head gasket, you'll need the injectors re-conditioning... if the 3 that have likely seized can be salvaged, prolly a set of glow plugs,

then you'd be silly not to re-seat the valves, so need to re-set the tappet clearances (they are shims in buckets on these engines)

 

and then when all that's done you may find out the piston rings are shot, crank or big end bearings gone, oil seals leaking, hooling system hoses rotten and so on.

 

i guess it depends on what you want to do with the boat, you have another, so it this one a day boat type thing, or something for going places your other boat cant go?? or are you fixing this one up to sell,

yes a boat with a working engine sells better, but sometimes it's not worth the expense to fix it, as you wont get it back at sale time,

[FORTUNATA]

"Bloomin eck, are you still faffin about with this engine, i remember you playing with it years ago and getting nowhere,"

 

What happened was I recently lost my job so whereas in the past I never had time to really get stuck in, now I do finally have time although less money. Plus, I have another boat which is a live-a-board so, as I say, time has been the factor. Not only that, but knowledge because back when I was first messing with this engine I knew far less.

 

"i do honnestly think you are fighting a loosing battle tho, and taking the head off may well ensure you never get this engine running again,"

 

I have just removed the air intake and exhaust manifolds and bought a cylinder head splined tool. This weeked I had a hell of a job taking off the lower manifold so while I was at it removed the alternator too. As I've been ploughing on, the impression I got is this is the right way to go ahead because I can see this engine is definitely in line for overhaul. The manifolds were actually loose at some points and dirty, rusted joints. Many signs of wear and tear. Whether it will run again I really have no idea but I hope it will.

Your point about timing is one I've considered carefully over the last 2 weeks. This is crucial. I have a hunch someone moved the camshaft and fuel injection pump sprockets slightly and I don't see any real alternative to manual re-setting because the manual makes no mention of marks on any other sprocket save the injection pump. There are just two things that puzzle me: It's possible to rotate piston number one (after de-coking) to TDC but how accurate will this be I wonder in degrees? The manual also says both valves must be closed and cam lobes pointing upwards. For injection timing there are marks and you can set the lift with a dial guage.

The truth is I may need to get a V.W. expert to help on resetting timing although I'd be interested to hear ideas. There is a tool available for doing timing in cases where the transmission is removed. My local V.W. garage can help with this.

Finally, I take your point this project may not succeed but I'll do my best and if all else fails install a new diesel engine. I've got to strike while the iron is hot as I may never have so much free time available again.

 

 

 

 

 

Bloomin eck, are you still faffin about with this engine, i remember you playing with it years ago and getting nowhere,

 

i think i mentioned this last time when i replied to you, but that engine is basicaly a 4 cylinder version of the 6 cylinder engine fitted to VW LT's, of which i had one, and played with the engine a fair bit,

 

the injection timing is ran off the back end of the cam shaft, the valve timing is set using a flat bar in the end of the camshaft at the injector pump end, with the pump drive sprocket removed, there's a slot, the flat bar gies in when the camshaft is aligned properly, and the timing mark on the flywheel lines up for the bottom end timing,

 

the top sprocket for the valve timing is an interfeerance fit, so it can be set anywhere if you dont know what your doing, a few degrees out and it'll run bad, a few more degrees out and it'll bend the valves.

 

the pump timing needs setting up with a dial gauge, no other way to do it, it's set to be so many hundreds of a millimeter at TDC, the manual will tell you the exact figure, for my engine it was 0.80 i believe, if set at 0.95, it knocked more but gave slightly better power and fuel economy, at 0.70 is was very quiet, lower on power, smoked a bit and a bit worse on economy.

 

yes the engine is indirect injection, you cant stick a bit of wire down the injector hole and have it rest on the piston top, as the injector hole is to the side of the pistons, you'd have to put a Z bend in the wire to get it to touch the piston, then find a way to thread it into the pre combustion chamber, past the glow plug, around the atomization nipple and down the hole to the piston, then figure out how to get it to show you when the piston is at tdc.

 

these engines need a good dose of glow plugs to get going, you havent mentioned doing so, even with easy start, if its a bit worn it most likely wont fire if no glow was applied, that's assuming the glow plugs are even working.

 

also the injection pump will have a cold start advance lever, has that been pulled all the way accross, as again, with it in the run osition, it wont help... my 6 pot engine would take a good 30 seconds to get going without the cold start knobbeing pulled out on the dash, and that was with perfectly working glow plugs that had been allowed to time out.

 

you said you saw a puff of smoke from the exhaust, that shows at least one cylinder had partialy ignited some fuel,

 

but you also mention the lack of 3 heat shields, without them the injector nozzles and pintles will seize up, so it could be that you only had one cylinder actually injecting,

 

i do honnestly think you are fighting a loosing battle tho, and taking the head off may well ensure you never get this engine running again,

the 6 pot engine was notorious for cracking the head, and both that and the 4 pot version likes to crack between the valves and pre-combustion chamber insert, sometimes upon removing the head, the insert falls out, and you can't use super glue to stick it back in

 

but if the head was not warped too badly and not cracked, you'd need a head skim, then you need to buy a new set of stretch bolts, head gasket, you'll need the injectors re-conditioning... if the 3 that have likely seized can be salvaged, prolly a set of glow plugs,

then you'd be silly not to re-seat the valves, so need to re-set the tappet clearances (they are shims in buckets on these engines)

 

and then when all that's done you may find out the piston rings are shot, crank or big end bearings gone, oil seals leaking, hooling system hoses rotten and so on.

 

i guess it depends on what you want to do with the boat, you have another, so it this one a day boat type thing, or something for going places your other boat cant go?? or are you fixing this one up to sell,

yes a boat with a working engine sells better, but sometimes it's not worth the expense to fix it, as you wont get it back at sale time,

[FORTUNATA]

Why do many boatbuilders make it so hard to do this kind of work do you think? One fact of life with boats is in time on the canals they really start to wear. Give a few decades and even the engine starts to go downhill. Someone who spends many thousands on a brand new boat with a brand new engine can be assured that he (or she) usually won't have to struggle with maintenance for quite some time. Those of us with far older boats and equally old engines do face a different scenario.

I was thinking about maybe turning this into a blog as it's becoming educational. The main lesson I can share is how hard it is to dismantle an engine when the builder has cramped everything in a small space. Yesterday it took me 30 minutes to undo one manifold nut and bolt because I had to work upside down by touch alone and with an oversized spanner. It was murder.

After I destressed with some cheap Polish beer and later watched an episode of Columbo on my live-a-board and, guess what, it was all about boats (mainly seagoing vessels).

[Tony Brooks]

snip

 

There are just two things that puzzle me: It's possible to rotate piston number one (after de-coking) to TDC but how accurate will this be I wonder in degrees? The manual also says both valves must be closed and cam lobes pointing upwards. For injection timing there are marks and you can set the lift with a dial guage.

 

snip

 

Simply relying on the piston will in no way be accurate enough for timing because of the "ineffectual crank angle" which is just a posh way of saying that around TDC & BDC the piston will stop and pause while the conrod is swung from one side to the other.

 

In an ideal world you would use a dial gauge to establish the moment the piston stopped rising and then mark the flywheel (which I think already has timing marks on it except you can not get at it). I would advise selecting a datum and marking the bottom pulley.

 

Then continue turning the engine until the piston just about moves (or past TDC, then turn it backwards and measure when the piston stops). mark the pulley again. TDC will be exactly half way between the two marks.

 

If the valve timing has been messed with you can not find TDC via the valves but once you have the crank at TDC you can get both valves closed with the cams pointing upwards as you say. I think that engine has a slot in the end of the camshaft so you can fit a bar in it and manoeuvre the bar to horizontal. that will give an almost exact TDC position for the cams.

 

Hope this helps and I would comment that the engine would probably normally be taken out for this depth of work.

 

keep at it and please do not listen to the Jonahs. Even if you totally screw the engine up you will have leaned a lot and as long s you take care over the valve timing I think you have every chance of getting it running - eventually

[FORTUNATA]

Much appreciated, Tony, and thanks for the advice. It's funny but I was re-reading the engine manual last night for the very reasons you refer to. I haven't yet removed the timing belt but I'd been puzzled over the degrees of difference there would be once you have the piston at TDC on compression (visually). My thinking was when the piston is at the very top, the shaft is still going to move a few degrees till it once more starts to tug on the conrod and piston. It's those degrees that bothered me.

At any rate I'll make notes on this datum system you refer to and it will help me I'm sure. Incidentally the results of my swatting up in the manual are as follows and many of you will already be aware of most of this: I find that normally, Haynes assumes any work being done on the engine is a complete engine with transmission and bellhousing included. This is why they always tell you to get TDC by opening a plug on the bellhousing and then matching the mark on the flywheel against a pointer on the housing. Except in this case there is no transmission, only an Enfield Z Drive. Even so, there will be a mark on the flywheel and V.W.apparently have a "setting fixture" tool to cover those rare cases where there is no transmission. I can only imagine it must have some sort of straight edge handle that clamps on the engine and then allows you to measure the millimetres from the flywheel timing mark. Something like that. It will probably be better to have a go at the datum suggestion, though, because I may not be able to get at the flywheel.

 

"In an ideal world you would use a dial gauge to establish the moment the piston stopped rising and then mark the flywheel (which I think already has timing marks on it except you can not get at it)."

 

Well, it may be the case the crankcase will have to come out. It's also certain the Z-Drive will have to be disconnected due to the shocking state of supporting timber externally. I wonder if by any chance someone marked the Z-Drive with a timing mark to match the flywheel?

 

"but once you have the crank at TDC you can get both valves closed with the cams pointing upwards as you say"

 

Any idea why presently only one cam lobe points upwards yet the other points diagonally?

 

"keep at it and please do not listen to the Jonahs. Even if you totally screw the engine up you will have leaned a lot and as long s you take care over the valve timing I think you have every chance of getting it running - eventually"

 

I must admit I found it a bit odd there was this sense of doom over the decision to remove a cylinder head. My Lister engine manual talks about this process as a matter of course - something we ought to do after a number of years. Any decision as to how far to take this project will depend on cost so I may well wind up sticking a new engine in and viewing this current one as a hands on learning process. I'll see if I can somehow upload some pics for you all to see.

 

 

Simply relying on the piston will in no way be accurate enough for timing because of the "ineffectual crank angle" which is just a posh way of saying that around TDC & BDC the piston will stop and pause while the conrod is swung from one side to the other.

 

In an ideal world you would use a dial gauge to establish the moment the piston stopped rising and then mark the flywheel (which I think already has timing marks on it except you can not get at it). I would advise selecting a datum and marking the bottom pulley.

 

Then continue turning the engine until the piston just about moves (or past TDC, then turn it backwards and measure when the piston stops). mark the pulley again. TDC will be exactly half way between the two marks.

 

If the valve timing has been messed with you can not find TDC via the valves but once you have the crank at TDC you can get both valves closed with the cams pointing upwards as you say. I think that engine has a slot in the end of the camshaft so you can fit a bar in it and manoeuvre the bar to horizontal. that will give an almost exact TDC position for the cams.

 

Hope this helps and I would comment that the engine would probably normally be taken out for this depth of work.

 

keep at it and please do not listen to the Jonahs. Even if you totally screw the engine up you will have leaned a lot and as long s you take care over the valve timing I think you have every chance of getting it running - eventually

[Tony Brooks]

snip

 

"but once you have the crank at TDC you can get both valves closed with the cams pointing upwards as you say"

 

Any idea why presently only one cam lobe points upwards yet the other points diagonally?

 

snip

 

 

Because they never do both point straight up. They usually form something of a V.

 

Have you had look at the end of the camshaft for a slot machined in the end. If it has one you stick a specially made tool in it and that locks the camshaft into the position related to TDC on the crankshaft. I think that if you made up a piece of wood or better still metal that slots neatly into the slot and used a small block or large nut sat on the head each side plus feeler gauges you would get it horizontal enough.

 

If there is no slot there just has to be timing marks on the crankshaft and camshaft pulley or even just the camshaft pulley with a datum to align against.

[FORTUNATA]

I take your point and, yes, the camshaft will have that groove you refer to. What the manual doesn't say is whether the locking bar locks the camshaft at T.D.C. So, I'll have to think that one over as it may be the slot does determine T.D.C. as well. If so, that solves one problem. I do know the injection pump also has holes, one in the sprocket and one in the pump mounting plate. When you can slot a bolt through both those holes, this sets the pump at T.D.C.

Basically according to Haynes you can screw a dial guage into the injection pump, bang in the middle of the injector outlets. You then crank over the crankshaft in reverse till the dial guage stops changing and stabilises. Then you zero the guage. Then you crank back forwards till the pump timing marks are lined up and I seem to recall you should get 2.5 mm or something like that. If you can't, then you either move the pump on its bolts or loosen the camshaft sprocket free of the shaft and reline the pump and camshaft sprockets to try and get the valves timed up. Yes, it's a bit confusing for a beginner like myself and maybe Haynes is a bit vague at times. Still, you can all see I have been giving the matter some thought before acting. I understand I need to be absolutely confident in what I'm doing if I'm to have any success. But so far so good. I remain positive. To be sure, I thought of at least marking everything just before removing the belt in case if I do bite off more than I can chew I can at least put the belt back on as it was.

 

"Because they never do both point straight up. They usually form something of a V."

 

I didn't know that. I think if I jam the camshaft as specified I can then look at the cams and piston number one cams should be pointing upwards in the V form. You know, I think this is starting to make more sense. So long as I can get the crankshaft 100 per cent, reassembly should go according to plan. I suggest I carry on with the project, take off the head and clean the engine up as well as check clearances and so on. It's a good way to learn.

 

 

 

Because they never do both point straight up. They usually form something of a V.

 

Have you had look at the end of the camshaft for a slot machined in the end. If it has one you stick a specially made tool in it and that locks the camshaft into the position related to TDC on the crankshaft. I think that if you made up a piece of wood or better still metal that slots neatly into the slot and used a small block or large nut sat on the head each side plus feeler gauges you would get it horizontal enough.

 

If there is no slot there just has to be timing marks on the crankshaft and camshaft pulley or even just the camshaft pulley with a datum to align against.

Edited August 17, 2010 by FORTUNATA

[Tony Brooks]

I take your point and, yes, the camshaft will have that groove you refer to. What the manual doesn't say is whether the locking bar locks the camshaft at T.D.C. So, I'll have to think that one over as it may be the slot does determine T.D.C. as well. If so, that solves one problem. I do know the injection pump also has holes, one in the sprocket and one in the pump mounting plate. When you can slot a bolt through both those holes, this sets the pump at T.D.C.

Basically according to Haynes you can screw a dial guage into the injection pump, bang in the middle of the injector outlets. You then crank over the crankshaft in reverse till the dial guage stops changing and stabilises. Then you zero the guage. Then you crank back forwards till the pump timing marks are lined up and I seem to recall you should get 2.5 mm or something like that. If you can't, then you either move the pump on its bolts or loosen the camshaft sprocket free of the shaft and reline the pump and camshaft sprockets to try and get the valves timed up. Yes, it's a bit confusing for a beginner like myself and maybe Haynes is a bit vague at times. Still, you can all see I have been giving the matter some thought before acting. I understand I need to be absolutely confident in what I'm doing if I'm to have any success. But so far so good. I remain positive. To be sure, I thought of at least marking everything just before removing the belt in case if I do bite off more than I can chew I can at least put the belt back on as it was.

 

"Because they never do both point straight up. They usually form something of a V."

 

I didn't know that. I think if I jam the camshaft as specified I can then look at the cams and piston number one cams should be pointing upwards in the V form. You know, I think this is starting to make more sense. So long as I can get the crankshaft 100 per cent, reassembly should go according to plan. I suggest I carry on with the project, take off the head and clean the engine up as well as check clearances and so on. It's a good way to learn.

 

 

The bar will lock the camshaft in the correct position so that when you fit the belt with the crank at TDC everything will be correct relative to each other BUT:- you can lock the camshaft 180 degrees out and this may be what has already taken place. It is important that unless the manual says something specific you lock the camshaft with number 1 cams pointing generally skyward and number on piston exactly on TDC.

 

I think you will have to take the head off to ascertain TDC on number one but if nothing looks too worn (feel the size of the ridge around the top of the bores) I would mark up TDC as I described on the front pulley (be it fan or cam belt, whichever is easier) lock the camshaft in place and then make my own timing marks on the crankshaft and camshaft cam belt pulleys. You may well find the injection timing is still OK so do not mess with it until you know it needs attention.

 

Once you fit the cam belt it is VITAL that you turn the engine over two complete revolutions BY HAND. In that way if you have cocked up so a valve hits a piston the engine will just refuse to tun and unless you do something silly with a long bar no damage will be done. If it happens re-time it.

 

Sorry I can not remember the exact sequence of doing the pump timing but the idea is to set the pump to inject BEFORE TDC. Some engines do not time the pump on number 1. My Bukh times it on number 3 (the equivalent of number 4 on your engine) so be guided by the manual).

 

Typically you set the cylinder required to TDC. Fit the DTI to the pump and using the keyway in the pulley taper or a mark on the pulley turn the pump to the position that equates to the start of injection for the required cylinder. Then you fit the pump and turn the engine BACKWARDS a specific amount so the piston is in the injection position. (My engine says 86mm backwards but yours may be different and could specify it in degrees). Then you fit the pump and belt and twist the PUMP BODY until the DTI says the pump is in the injection position as well. As I said we have no reason to suspect the pump timing is wrong at this time.

[FORTUNATA]

Thanks for the help, Tony. I think that now I'm in a position to know more or less what I'm doing, which is good. I didn't know the locking tool automatically locked the camshaft at T.D.C. and assumed this bar was merely to prevent the camshaft from moving. The manual should have been clearer but now all that needs to be done is to check the cam lobes are "up" as the camshaft remains locked. My local V.W. garage has the proper bar but I could make one to the same specification.

As for pump timing my suspicion is it is out by quite a few degrees because I know someone once tried to take the pump off and didn't really have a clue what he was doing.

I imagine setting the camshaft as close to 100 per cent TDC will be the hardest task but I'm sure with the information I now have it'll be O.K.

By the way, I removed the alternator which happens to be a Lucas. I compared it with a more modern Lucas on sale in the chandlers and I find my own alternator doesn't have visible markings for B+, D+ and Field. There was a male socket hole to take crimped wire endings. If I'm not mistaken Lucas alternators are negative poled. I also have an idea to fit a new, more powerful starter motor (taken from a scrapyard hopefully) but all of this is a long way off yet.

 

The bar will lock the camshaft in the correct position so that when you fit the belt with the crank at TDC everything will be correct relative to each other BUT:- you can lock the camshaft 180 degrees out and this may be what has already taken place. It is important that unless the manual says something specific you lock the camshaft with number 1 cams pointing generally skyward and number on piston exactly on TDC.

 

I think you will have to take the head off to ascertain TDC on number one but if nothing looks too worn (feel the size of the ridge around the top of the bores) I would mark up TDC as I described on the front pulley (be it fan or cam belt, whichever is easier) lock the camshaft in place and then make my own timing marks on the crankshaft and camshaft cam belt pulleys. You may well find the injection timing is still OK so do not mess with it until you know it needs attention.

 

Once you fit the cam belt it is VITAL that you turn the engine over two complete revolutions BY HAND. In that way if you have cocked up so a valve hits a piston the engine will just refuse to tun and unless you do something silly with a long bar no damage will be done. If it happens re-time it.

 

Sorry I can not remember the exact sequence of doing the pump timing but the idea is to set the pump to inject BEFORE TDC. Some engines do not time the pump on number 1. My Bukh times it on number 3 (the equivalent of number 4 on your engine) so be guided by the manual).

 

Typically you set the cylinder required to TDC. Fit the DTI to the pump and using the keyway in the pulley taper or a mark on the pulley turn the pump to the position that equates to the start of injection for the required cylinder. Then you fit the pump and turn the engine BACKWARDS a specific amount so the piston is in the injection position. (My engine says 86mm backwards but yours may be different and could specify it in degrees). Then you fit the pump and belt and twist the PUMP BODY until the DTI says the pump is in the injection position as well. As I said we have no reason to suspect the pump timing is wrong at this time.

[FORTUNATA]

Haven't done much today but it seems as if the timing is bang on. The injection pump sprocket has a tiny notch on a tooth so, once cranked by hand in line with the housing mark, I did what Tony suggested and locked the camshaft with a bar. There's a tiny slot in the camshaft and so I locked it. Both cam lobes were pointing up and to cap it off I found I could place a bolt through the injection sprocket into the plate behind. The crankshaft is almost certainly O.K.

This is pretty slow progress as I have the pooch to take care of too (his walk is due) but I think the head will be off very soon and I'm positive I can reassemble everything so far.

[JonL]

I think you either need a medal for perseverance or certifying mad for carrying on with this engine.

How many hours do you think you’ve spent on this so far ?

[FORTUNATA]

I'd settle for the medal, I think Hours spent on actual work I'd say not really that many. Hours spent reading the manuals and swatting up I imagine a huge amount.

To be honest, it's enjoyable and interesting. It may possibly never run but I've learned quite a lot so far. It's only since I lost my job a few weeks ago I find I finally have time to give it a go.

 

I think you either need a medal for perseverance or certifying mad for carrying on with this engine.

How many hours do you think you’ve spent on this so far ?

[FORTUNATA]

UPDATE: UPDATE: LATEST BULLETIN!

 

The cylinder head is now removed from the crankcase and it would seem I have a few stuck valves. However, this needs to be looked at in far more detail and all I did thus far was take a superficial look. The cylinder bores and piston crowns were pretty dirty and quite a bit of carbon and muck but, nevertheless, there was no lip on top of the bores and the cylinders didn't show any obvious signs of pitting. It looks to me like an engine that's more neglected and very dirty rather than worn out. Whether I have to go the whole hog and remove the valves to fit new seals and so on, I don't yet know.

Removal of the timing belt was a bit tricky. It was necessary to take off the camshaft sprocket in order to finally remove the belt. I discovered there was no problem whatsoever with the engine timing and that was spot on. To remove the cylinder head studs I had to get splined tools from Machine Mart and then fit a large crankarm onto a 12 mm socket. Once the bolts were removed diagonally and slowly the cylinder head lifted off quite easily.

I also discovered another major problem. The water inlet hose was actually torn all along the back and jubilee clip rotted off.

I'm taking a couple of days off to chill out, look at what Haynes says about decarbonising and overall engine inspection and later I'll decide whether I'll continue to work on this particular engine which depends on chances of success as well as cost. However, I think it's all probably doable and if the valves are stuck that will explain the lack of induction.

Finally it's becoming clear.

Edited August 23, 2010 by FORTUNATA

[Tony Brooks]

UPDATE: UPDATE: LATEST BULLETIN!

 

The cylinder head is now removed from the crankcase and it would seem I have a few stuck valves. However, this needs to be looked at in far more detail and all I did thus far was take a superficial look. The cylinder bores and piston crowns were pretty dirty and quite a bit of carbon and muck but, nevertheless, there was no lip on top of the bores and the cylinders didn't show any obvious signs of pitting. It looks to me like an engine that's more neglected and very dirty rather than worn out. Whether I have to go the whole hog and remove the valves to fit new seals and so on, I don't yet know.

Removal of the timing belt was a bit tricky. It was necessary to take off the camshaft sprocket in order to finally remove the belt. I discovered there was no problem whatsoever with the engine timing and that was spot on. To remove the cylinder head studs I had to get splined tools from Machine Mart and then fit a large crankarm onto a 12 mm socket. Once the bolts were removed diagonally and slowly the cylinder head lifted off quite easily.

I also discovered another major problem. The water inlet hose was actually torn all along the back and jubilee clip rotted off.

I'm taking a couple of days off to chill out, look at what Haynes says about decarbonising and overall engine inspection and later I'll decide whether I'll continue to work on this particular engine which depends on chances of success as well as cost. However, I think it's all probably doable and if the valves are stuck that will explain the lack of induction.

Finally it's becoming clear.

 

 

Whatever Haynes says if you are going to decarbonise the top of the pistons please leave an intact ring of carbon of about half an inch around the circumference of the piston. If you do not you might find that you have broken a seal being formed by the carbon.

[FORTUNATA]

There is dirt and particles on top of the piston crowns and around the head. In other words, it's a dirty engine. There was even a bit of water on a piston crown. All I can do now is try to get the dirt out. I'll also get a second opinion from a mechanic I might collar to take a look at the general picture. It seems as if the valves could be my major problem. I cranked the timing to TDC beforehand and only one valve was projecting a quarter inch or so from beneath. All other valves were dead closed. I mean, I expected cylinder one valves to be closed but maybe not all of them. Yet there seemed to be no sign of serious valve damage or bending or anything catastrophic. My guess is that after many years of non use in damp and freezing temps, what we have is a very dirty, neglected old engine that needs a bit of valve service and a damned good clean.

I was pleased to see my cousin's timing was bang on but now I can actually see the state of the interior engine I now know even he wouldn't have stood a cat's chance in hell of starting it.

 

 

Whatever Haynes says if you are going to decarbonise the top of the pistons please leave an intact ring of carbon of about half an inch around the circumference of the piston. If you do not you might find that you have broken a seal being formed by the carbon.

[RLWP]

Is the camshaft still fitted to the cylinder head with the locking bar in place? If so, some of the valves will be held off their seats by the cams. They may not be stuck at all

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

This is complicated because I couldn't effectively lock the camshaft via the locking bar (only set it as a timing mark). This was because unknown to me at the time there is a rubber gung against the slot on the cam. That's why the camshaft kept slipping despite the fact I tried locking it from reverse with a bar. I could feel the slot with my fingers but couldn't see it. Therefore, I had to jam the camshaft sprocket with a screwdriver and then bear down with a heavy duty spanner on the locknut, so as to keep the camshaft locked at TDC. Then, when I took the cylinder head off and saw this rubber gung, I understood it's meant to be removed so you can jam the camshaft more efficiently.

Thus, the cylinder head was taken off, set at TDC. The next step will be to put the camshaft sprocket back on the shaft and then turn the shaft and watch the valves from below. Same goes for the pistons. Fortunately Haynes does a detailed middle section of overall engine testing which I'll have to do. Such as feeler guages on the head, pistons, valve play and so on.

My gut feeling is the non starting was more down to engine neglect rather than actual serious damage.

 

Is the camshaft still fitted to the cylinder head with the locking bar in place? If so, some of the valves will be held off their seats by the cams. They may not be stuck at all

 

Richard

[RLWP]

Even without the locking bar, if the camshaft is still bolted to the cylinder head some of the valves will be open and some closed. You can't tell if they are stuck without either turning the camshaft, which is surprisingly difficult against the valve springs, or taking the camshaft off.

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

Basically I'm going to take a couple of free days to do something else, walk the pooch and so forth and should be back on it maybe Wednesday. I will ask a local mechanic to give me some opinion on it all before carrying on. The big question is where do you draw the line? Strictly speaking, I know that really I need to take the crankcase out of the boat as well and at the very least remove the sump, service the oil pump and so on. I mean, having gone to so much trouble, it makes sense to do the job right for once and for all.

 

 

Even without the locking bar, if the camshaft is still bolted to the cylinder head some of the valves will be open and some closed. You can't tell if they are stuck without either turning the camshaft, which is surprisingly difficult against the valve springs, or taking the camshaft off.

 

Richard

[smileypete]

Basically I'm going to take a couple of free days to do something else, walk the pooch and so forth and should be back on it maybe Wednesday. I will ask a local mechanic to give me some opinion on it all before carrying on. The big question is where do you draw the line? Strictly speaking, I know that really I need to take the crankcase out of the boat as well and at the very least remove the sump, service the oil pump and so on. I mean, having gone to so much trouble, it makes sense to do the job right for once and for all.

By the way, 3 wise words to remember:

 

Don't use Easystart.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[FORTUNATA]

I haven't worked it out but at random I'd have imagined some of the valves would be open. I do recall two pistons were right up at top and two pistons were low down the bores. So, I'd have expected to see at least a couple of open valves. I won't be messing with engines today but later on will investigate further.

 

Is the camshaft still fitted to the cylinder head with the locking bar in place? If so, some of the valves will be held off their seats by the cams. They may not be stuck at all

 

Richard

Edited August 24, 2010 by FORTUNATA