Worst case scenario

[alan_fincher]

I take it you are not familiar with the bend in question....

 

sounds a tad extreme to me.

The OP talks about Hawkesbury Junction, not "some bend near Hawkesbury Junction", as people subsequently chose to interpret it.

 

If they actually meant "Hawkesbury Junction" then it was indeed done exactly how Mike says.

 

(Excellent Archive pictures in Sonia Rolt's book of Robert Longden photos - "A Canal People", although Sonia has managed to caption some of them incorrectly, as is obvious if you look at the pictures.)

 

It's highly unlikely that Mike is not familiar with this stretch of canal, as he used to skipper pairs of working boats through there, with a full load of coal on both, thus probably giving him more experience than many, I suspect!

[Guest]

The OP talks about Hawkesbury Junction, not "some bend near Hawkesbury Junction", as people subsequently chose to interpret it.

Sorry Alan I beg to differ.

 

I was looking on Google Maps satellite view at Hawkesbury Junction and thought Ooo my worst nightmare. A curve with boats moored either side, a boat coming in both directions towards each other.

 

I believe the OP is referring to the bend as I originally interpreted it and there fore the technique described would be an extreme method of negotiating it.

 

The junction itself isn't an actual 'curve' but the section I referred to is and it has boats moored either side.

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sour...mp;t=h&z=18

 

However if the op is talking about the junction itself then I'm afraid the reference to boast being moored either side is erroneous, as there aren't any.

[Tam & Di]

That is the best way to ensure you DO get hit by the other boat. The natural temptaion of novices presented by an unexpected situation is to try and stop the boat as quickly as possible - just as you would do in the car. But whereas your car (hopefully) comes gracefully to rest before any collision, when you throw the boat into full astern it usually skews right across the cut, giving the other boat no chance of avoiding you, unless he also does the same. And in the original question, where there are moored boats on both sides, the other boat is unlikely to do that.

 

 

If there is plenty of width, and you are confident there is enough depth of water at the side for your boat this may be fine. But if you are in doubt about either, you run the risk of going aground, possibly skewing across the canal and putting yourself in the firing line again.

 

 

The easiest way for any boats to pass, whether deep draughted and constrained to the channel or not, is to keep going, aiming straight at, or just to the right of the other boat's bow fender. When the boats are about length apart both steerers push the tiller hard over so the bows miss each other. At this point hydrodynamics takes over, and you will find the two boats pass each other just inches apart. As your bow passes the other boat's stern, it is magically pulled back in towards the centre of the channel, and just as you think you are going too far to the opposite bank, the sterns pass and pull each other back into mid channel, and off both boats go heading in the right direction.

 

Get it right and its a magic dance. Get it wrong, and as long as the bows have passed one another the worst you will do is scrape down the side of the other boat - rather preferable to being T-boned amidships, a quite likely outcome of throwing the boat into full astern.

 

 

Reading from the beginning of the thread I was about to reply to say exactly the same as this. Even the bridgeholes on the Grand Union are wide enough for two narrow beam boats to pass - I've been loaded and met another pair actually in a bridgehole on several occasions, and for either of us to have held back hard would have led to catastrophe. The key thing is that you must ALWAYS be in the correct bit of canal yourself - there is much more space than you think there is, and moving over a tad is quick and easy. Two 7' boats heading for each other stem to stem in the middle of the canal - each moves 4' to starboard/right when about one length away and hey presto, you smile and shake hands with each other as you pass. "A miss is as good as a mile". The picture does get muddied when you have to take wideboats and GRP cruisers into account, and also if you try to allow for the inexperience or lack of ability in others, but you can't always proceed on the assumption everyone is going to commit hari kari in front of you.

 

If you make a habit of "driving on the right" on canals I'm afraid the person coming the opposite way is just as likely to think "what a nice person to stay over out of my way" and not bother to move himself. Not aggression, more a fact of human nature.

[alan_fincher]

Sorry Alan I beg to differ.

 

 

 

I believe the OP is referring to the bend as I originally interpreted it and there fore the technique described would be an extreme method of negotiating it.

 

The junction itself isn't an actual 'curve' but the section I referred to is and it has boats moored either side.

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sour...mp;t=h&z=18

 

However if the op is talking about the junction itself then I'm afraid the reference to boast being moored either side is erroneous, as there aren't any.

Maybe ?

 

But you would have to be working at it not to see a boat coming the other way there, wouldn't you ?

 

There is clear line of sight throughout there, surely, and if we are talking narrow boats, then a steerer will usually be high enough up to have a view across the top of the ones on the inside of the bend, and to see (at least) the steerer of a boat coming the other way).

 

The width of the cut here, coupled with mooring both sides, clearly means you should be at a speed when stopping should be no issue at all, (if it were you are going too fast).

 

Anyone who managed to hit a boat coming the other way with any force there, would be seriously in need of a bit of training, (particularly as the picture you have posted clearly shows more than enough width for two boats to pass each other quite easily, right on the main elbow of the bend !)

[Guest]

Maybe ?

 

But you would have to be working at it not to see a boat coming the other way there, wouldn't you ?

 

There is clear line of sight throughout there, surely, and if we are talking narrow boats, then a steerer will usually be high enough up to have a view across the top of the ones on the inside of the bend, and to see (at least) the steerer of a boat coming the other way).

 

The width of the cut here, coupled with mooring both sides, clearly means you should be at a speed when stopping should be no issue at all, (if it were you are going too fast).

 

Anyone who managed to hit a boat coming the other way with any force there, would be seriously in need of a bit of training, (particularly as the picture you have posted clearly shows more than enough width for two boats to pass each other quite easily, right on the main elbow of the bend !)

 

Totally agree - I have passed through there only twice in my shortlived Narrowboating career and not had a problem - it is a bit tight but there are many worse sections and bends to contend with on the system than that particular one (boating through Skipton springs to mind) - clearly the OP is a bit jittery about it but I think once he has done it once I think he will realise it's not as bad as it might appear.

[alan_fincher]

it is a bit tight but there are many worse sections and bends to contend with on the system than that particular one

 

Yes, if that's the bend OP meant, we are in total agreement - many far more potentially problematic places than this!

 

I agree that the "rope round a bollard, and power round" method is not the best there. It was however how it was clearly done at the junction itself, at least some of the time, and makes for some fascinating historic photos.

 

It's no bad thin not to do the 'U' turn under the bridge some times, as by so doing, you are actually missing the remaining 5 miles of the Coventry into the city centre. Personally, (despite not being a fan of lock-less miles), I think it's well worth doing, with plenty to interest in the city itself.

[Machpoint005]

Er - surely the answer is not to be going so fast into a blind bend or bridge'ole that you cannot avoid the other party?

 

I'm not an especially cautious person, but I find that always expecting a boat to be just out of sight helps me to avoid hitting them - or being hit.

Doesn't help if the other idiot is trying to do a Bluebird, though...

[Laurie Booth]

Last time I went in, someone stole my hat.....

Oh !! it was your hat !!

[Guest]

It's no bad thin not to do the 'U' turn under the bridge some times, as by so doing, you are actually missing the remaining 5 miles of the Coventry into the city centre. Personally, (despite not being a fan of lock-less miles), I think it's well worth doing, with plenty to interest in the city itself.

 

 

Its fascinating doing that section - though we've only been part the way down wound about half way and moored up for the big Tesco, very industrial in parts but if you keep your eyes open you can spend time spotting the interesting remnants of canal history - like the ramped wharf alongside where Tesco now is, there must have been something very interesting there at one point.

 

Last time we passed they were in the process of demolition the huge Factory on the right as you travel towards Coventry (the company name escapes me).

 

 

 

Jan was less taken with it than I was, I do have to say

[carlt]

Last time we passed they were in the process of demolition the huge Factory on the right as you travel towards Coventry (the company name escapes me).

Courtaulds, perhaps?

 

The Acrylic plant was demolished over 10 years ago but, last time I was up that way it looked like they were starting on the Acetate plant.

Edited March 31, 2010 by carlt

[starman]

Er - surely the answer is not to be going so fast into a blind bend or bridge'ole that you cannot avoid the other party?

 

I'm not an especially cautious person, but I find that always expecting a boat to be just out of sight helps me to avoid hitting them - or being hit.

Doesn't help if the other idiot is trying to do a Bluebird, though...

 

I hung around waiting for five boats to come through a blind GU bridgehole. When it finally seemed clear I went through - only to meet that bonkers Whitefield boat nose to nose. It was v. funny to see him flapping away on his joysticks trying to go backwards. I guess he'd seen so many boats go through in front of him he hadn't expected someone to be hidden at the other side. Or maybe he thought £250k bought him right of way?

[FadeToScarlet]

The worst case scenario is that boats hit each other, and swearing happens. Narrowboats are made of steel and they don't go very fast. We had a day-hire boat veer across in front of us at the last minute on the GU, we T-boned it just at the start of the cabin. There was a dent afterwards but nobody sank. Hopefully next time that steerer will remember which way to push the tiller even when under pressure.

 

MP.

 

Don't forget the BOOOONNNNGGGGGGGG!

[Mick_B]

But you ALWAYS meet other boats on bends, normally there is also a bridge across the cut right on the bend. You NEVER meet them on the straight. I am not sure who's law it is, but it should be someones.

That damned Murphy guy again

[mayalld]

Er - surely the answer is not to be going so fast into a blind bend or bridge'ole that you cannot avoid the other party?

 

I'm not an especially cautious person, but I find that always expecting a boat to be just out of sight helps me to avoid hitting them - or being hit.

Doesn't help if the other idiot is trying to do a Bluebird, though...

 

It also doesn't help if the guy coming the other way has an aversion to use of the horn!

 

One particularly bad total blind spot is the 90 degree bend on the Macc at Pool Lock Aqueduct (Pipers yard). There is absolutely zero visibility round the corner, the bridge is very close to the corner. Any boat coming from the T&M that has commenced its turn will have difficulty backing off if a boat is coming the other way, and any boat coming from the Macc could have a longish reverse.

 

It is a classic case of where a horn signal is called for, and we always sound just before passing the "point of no return", and in the middle of the bad section.

 

A couple of years ago, we sounded the horn, coming onto the macc, and heard nothing in reply, only to be faced with a boat coming the other way. When we enquired as to whether he had heard our horn, he confirmed that he had, but "we don't use the horn"

[Tiny]

Actually the Oxford side of Sutton Stop is wide even with boats either side as is the Coventry once you are above the narrows. The turn under the bridge is OK though you have to watch as anyboat coming out of Coventry can be approaching the junction fast and you (turning out) cannot see them coming or they you.

 

Much worse than here are some of those canals where BW allow foliage to grow opposite a short term mooring on a bend (For example near Huddlesfield Junction.) Places like this may have all manner of trees and bushes cut back or, more lightly it is left to grow, narrowing the canal and obstructing the view. Still you can get round at this point (just) if meeting a boat who is taking care as you are and using the gaps in the moored boats for passing bays.

But all this breaks down when, round the corner right in the middle with no slowing for moored boats comes Hyacynth Bucket steering a boat like Boodica in her chariot and expecting your boat to simply melt from her path. In this case, if you dodge her, you are perfectly within your rights to call her a stupid fat cow (more than once to get through her superiority complex) and then have the pleasure of her hubby trying to bonk you with his brolly while his distracted wife drives straight into the bank (just missing two boats) at full speed. (Thus giving pleasure to a number of moored boaters and us.) Seriously though these uncut bits opposite moorings are a menace.

 

On the Maccy entrance the wife goes up the front and I go slow and toot the tooter long and loud. This normally works but you cannot legislate for the odd plonker.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Courtaulds, perhaps?

 

The Acrylic plant was demolished over 10 years ago but, last time I was up that way it looked like they were starting on the Acetate plant.

 

Thanks Carl - it's been driving me mad all day but I think your right -

 

This

 

looks like it but I seem to recall a different name on some of the boards that faced the canal - it's probaly all gone now so will never know what they said. When we passed there was guys in 'Cherry Pickers' donned with serious looking masks removing the asbestos covering from the external pipework, in preparation for the demolition. Large areas of the site had already been cleared.

 

I bet that hit the local economy hard when that went, the site seemed massive.

Edited March 31, 2010 by MJG

[Ray T]

Thanks Carl - it's been driving me mad all day but I think your right -

 

This

 

looks like it but I seem to recall a different name on some of the boards that faced the canal - it's probably all gone now so will never know what they said. When we passed there was guys in 'Cherry Pickers' donned with serious looking masks removing the asbestos covering from the external pipework, in preparation for the demolition. Large areas of the site had already been cleared.

 

I bet that hit the local economy hard when that went, the site seemed massive.

 

Totally but I am afraid Courtaulds is just one of many of Coventry's industries to go: Alfred Herbert Machine tools, Gauge and Tool, Massey Ferguson, Reynold Chain, Wickman Wimmet, Peugeot, Alvis, Jaguar, Matrix Churchill - I could go on. The City is now a ghost town of what it was. Ah just noticed some tumble weed being blown past!

[Dyad]

Yes, if that's the bend OP meant, we are in total agreement - many far more potentially problematic places than this!

 

I wasn't refering to any particular bit of canal in my op, just blind bends in genral, seeing the shot of Hawkesbury on google maps got me thinking that's all.

[Guest]

I wasn't refering to any particular bit of canal in my op, just blind bends in genral, seeing the shot of Hawkesbury on google maps got me thinking that's all.

 

Your OP though sparked a discussion about whether you were referring to the actual junction itself with it's tight U turn into the basin under the bridge or whether you were referring to the section of the canal with the bend and boats moored either side.

 

As it happens that bend couldn't really be described as 'blind' at all, there are many on the system a lot worse than that, and there is ample room for two boats to pass even with boats moored both sides.

 

One of the best is emerging from the north portal of Foulridge tunnel where if the vegetation hasn't been cut back since the last time I passed puts you into the path of oncoming boats, or the bend at the Anchor Inn on the L&L with a bridge thrown into the mix, just to further obscure your view for good measure.

[blackrose]

I was looking on Google Maps satellite view at Hawkesbury Junction and thought Ooo my worst nightmare. A curve with boats moored either side, a boat coming in both directions towards each other. What happens if they don't see each other until the last minute and there is no room to manoeuvre, literally.

 

Your opinions/experiences please.

 

Take your boat to a quiet place and learn to do the 'holding station' - that is holding your boat in roughly the same position (relative to everything else). It sounds easy but along with reversing in a straight line is actually one of the most difficult manouvres on a boat. Side winds or currents can make it even more difficult.

 

Once you have mastered this technique using forward and reverse, you're then in a position to stop the boat, hold it in position and then direct the boat out of the holding station. So in the worst case scenario you should be able to stop the boat mid-canal and hold your position while you assess the situation.

 

However, the situation you describe isn't worst case scenarion and you should just be able to creep forward around the oncoming traffic.

Edited April 1, 2010 by blackrose

[Machpoint005]

It also doesn't help if the guy coming the other way has an aversion to use of the horn!

 

One particularly bad total blind spot is the 90 degree bend on the Macc at Pool Lock Aqueduct (Pipers yard). There is absolutely zero visibility round the corner, the bridge is very close to the corner. Any boat coming from the T&M that has commenced its turn will have difficulty backing off if a boat is coming the other way, and any boat coming from the Macc could have a longish reverse.

 

It is a classic case of where a horn signal is called for, and we always sound just before passing the "point of no return", and in the middle of the bad section.

 

A couple of years ago, we sounded the horn, coming onto the macc, and heard nothing in reply, only to be faced with a boat coming the other way. When we enquired as to whether he had heard our horn, he confirmed that he had, but "we don't use the horn"

Agreed, and especially at that location! But at least you don't get 'false alarms' when some eejit in his Wilmslow Tractor honks before crossing a canal bridge.

 

...but that's a different game altogether.....

[carlt]

looks like it but I seem to recall a different name on some of the boards that faced the canal - it's probaly all gone now so will never know what they said.

 

I bet that hit the local economy hard when that went, the site seemed massive.

Courtaulds was dismantled and renamed, before the plants closed. The acetate plant dragged on for some years after the acrylic and Carbon Fibre plants went, further down Foleshill road.

[antarmike]

Yes, if that's the bend OP meant, we are in total agreement - many far more potentially problematic places than this!

 

I agree that the "rope round a bollard, and power round" method is not the best there. It was however how it was clearly done at the junction itself, at least some of the time, and makes for some fascinating historic photos.

 

It's no bad thin not to do the 'U' turn under the bridge some times, as by so doing, you are actually missing the remaining 5 miles of the Coventry into the city centre. Personally, (despite not being a fan of lock-less miles), I think it's well worth doing, with plenty to interest in the city itself.

But I was off to load coal at Atherstone or Gopsall, or returning loaded to Leighton,I had limited time off work, so effiency is the name of the game , and that means strapping round the bend. (even though apparently saome here think I am unfamiliar with the bend, Funny I ever made it to the coal fields isn't it?)

Edited April 3, 2010 by antarmike

[antarmike]

Which ever bend we are talking about, and whether boats are moored one side or the other, the situation proposed by the initial post isn't the "worst case scenario," the worst case scenario is when you are towing a butty, on a fairly long snubber, and the motor has just come through a bridge on a bend (Oxford canal, can't remeber precise location) and a boat going the opposite way passes you just as you come out of the bridge, and aims for the bridge, not seeing the snubber of the butty still to come through the bridge.

 

When the other boat hits your snubber and gets guided directly at the butty what do you do. I slowed down as soon as I saw it happening, but the result was a head on collision.

 

I was steering Hotel boat Albert, Kid brother was steering Victoria, (if a can remember after all these years which carried which name!) Our passengers were not much impresssed, and I still maintain the accident was entirely the other persons fault.

 

In my opinion that is worst case scenario.

Edited April 3, 2010 by antarmike

[Keeping Up]

Ditto. While we were towing "Forward" down from Birmingham to Rickmansworth (yes I know, that's a hell of a lot easier than towing a 70ft hotel boat) we had the same thing happen to us at Pitstone Bridge - although in this case we were towing on cross-straps so there can hardly have been an excuse for a hireboat trying to get between us. After hitting "Forward" head-on under the bridge, the hireboat skipper said he had been happy to let one boat through the bridge but didn't see why he should have to wait for a second one when it was now "his turn".