Worst case scenario

[Guest]

But I was off to load coal at Atherstone or Gopsall, or returning loaded to Leighton,I had limited time off work, so effiency is the name of the game , and that means strapping round the bend. (even though apparently saome here think I am unfamiliar with the bend, Funny I ever made it to the coal fields isn't it?)

 

Just one last go for clarity-

 

The reason I thought you were unfamiliar with the bend is because I could not see the technique you described being appropriate for the bend I was talking about, which IS NOT the u turn to pass under the bridge at the junction but rather the bend past Sutton stop and further east. I'm guessing (I defer to your superior knowledge on this point) the technique would be appropriate to negotiate to turn under the bridge - but this is not what I was talking about.

 

and as to your navigational abilities until Alan pointed it out earlier in the thread I had no idea what your previous experience was.

[DHutch]

Ive skim read the second half of the thread, but the technique when learning is, slow down early, dont panic, be polite, keep you arms out the way.

- Boats turn best when accelerating and more water is going over the rudder for a given speed, they turn very badly or not at all in reverse as well.

- They are typically fairly robustly constructed , but do contain a lot of energy even a moderate speeds due to there weight, soft bits will get crushed.

 

If it really is going very wrong, you have gone in too fast, and you really do think reversing to take off the speed is the best, it may be. However in theres cases assuming there is somewhere to go, often a burst of power to turn it to the gab is the best thing. But i can take an amount of nerve and confidence to do this and to know when to do it and when to close you eyes, shout for any crew to brace themselfs, and hit reverse.

 

Daniel

[antarmike]

Ive skim read the second half of the thread, but the technique when learning is, slow down early, dont panic, be polite, keep you arms out the way.

- Boats turn best when accelerating and more water is going over the rudder for a given speed, they turn very badly or not at all in reverse as well.

- They are typically fairly robustly constructed , but do contain a lot of energy even a moderate speeds due to there weight, soft bits will get crushed.

 

If it really is going very wrong, you have gone in too fast, and you really do think reversing to take off the speed is the best, it may be. However in theres cases assuming there is somewhere to go, often a burst of power to turn it to the gab is the best thing. But i can take an amount of nerve and confidence to do this and to know when to do it and when to close you eyes, shout for any crew to brace themselfs, and hit reverse.

 

Daniel

But if they are going to hit your butty not the motor and you are on a long line, reverse is of no use whatsoever.

[Pete of Ebor]

I was looking on Google Maps satellite view at Hawkesbury Junction and thought Ooo my worst nightmare. A curve with boats moored either side, a boat coming in both directions towards each other. What happens if they don't see each other until the last minute and there is no room to manoeuvre, literally.

 

Your opinions/experiences please.

 

The one thing you must remember is that the difficulty of any manoeuver is directly proprtional to the square of the number of people watching...

Edited January 16, 2011 by Pete of Ebor

[muddywaters]

I was looking on Google Maps satellite view at Hawkesbury Junction and thought Ooo my worst nightmare. A curve with boats moored either side, a boat coming in both directions towards each other. What happens if they don't see each other until the last minute and there is no room to manoeuvre, literally.

 

Your opinions/experiences please.

That was always a situation I was concerned about getting into but take it in my stride now.

As has already been said just slow down and stay on your side and no one can blame you should anything go wrong.

Last year in that situation the steerer on the boat coming towards us was terrified where as we just took it in our stride but even the guy panicking got through without hitting anything.

Best to ask about what you are uncertain about though as we where terrified of the thought of doing locks before our first trip.

Give first time hirers advice at locks now

[Chertsey]

A head on collision isn't that scary, the shape of the boats' fore ends would mean they would glance off each other. If a boat is (apparently) coming straight at you it may just be intending to pass correctly, i.e. to swerve around you once it gets closer. It is NOT a good idea to get as far away from it as possible, as you will end up in the trees/on the mud. It is NOT a good idea slamming your boat into reverse and trying to stop as you will lose control, end up sideways across the cut, and be more likely to be hit sideways on by the oncoming boat, which is more likely to do damage (albeit still minor) than a head on collision. The best thing to do is to adjust your speed so as to meet the oncoming boat at the most suitable point, and pass as close to it as possible, turning away from it at the last minute and tucking back in behind it as soon as you have passed.

 

There is no such thing as 'your side'; you should navigate in the middle of the channel and only move across as much as necessary to pass oncoming boats.

 

Far more likely to be hit are the bloody boats tied up on the inside of the bend when a long boat comes out of the bridgehole and can't turn in time because its stern end is still in the narrow part of the bridgehole. The people who built the canals didn't waste labour or water making the canals any wider than they needed to be; they're wider on bends and near bridges for a reason, and that reason isn't to make space to moor boats.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Chertsey

[Tiny]

It also doesn't help if the guy coming the other way has an aversion to use of the horn!

 

One particularly bad total blind spot is the 90 degree bend on the Macc at Pool Lock Aqueduct (Pipers yard). There is absolutely zero visibility round the corner, the bridge is very close to the corner. Any boat coming from the T&M that has commenced its turn will have difficulty backing off if a boat is coming the other way, and any boat coming from the Macc could have a longish reverse.

 

It is a classic case of where a horn signal is called for, and we always sound just before passing the "point of no return", and in the middle of the bad section.

 

A couple of years ago, we sounded the horn, coming onto the macc, and heard nothing in reply, only to be faced with a boat coming the other way. When we enquired as to whether he had heard our horn, he confirmed that he had, but "we don't use the horn"

 

I have met a boat on this bend. It was a BW 60' work boat and we are 52'. We were coming up canal on the towpath side and must have both hooted together for my firsty knowing he was there was seeing his nose. Still we both kept going - me in to out and him (on the outside) out to in as we both rounded the bend. It's nice when the other guy knows what he is doing and it all works but we always assume the oncoming boat (if there is one) will be driven by an idiot and try to take precautions - though if they slam into reverse on sight and slew into you while you yell for them to put it in forward and drive round you there is little you can do.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Tiny

[blackrose]

I am a novice and the fear of meeting someone coming the other way with other boats either side fills me with dread. I expect it isn't as bad as it looks on the aerial shot.

 

Get into an area where you are on your own and practice the "holding station" - holding your position in the water without moving very much, using forward and reverse and your rudder to stay in position. Once you can do this try it in the wind - more difficult!

 

If you can execute the manouvre it will give you much more confidence on narrow blind bends, etc, because you know that when you're in that situation you can slow right down and if necessary come to a complete stop while still maintaining control, which gives you and the oncoming boater more time to decide what to do without going into panic mode.

Edited May 9, 2011 by blackrose

[Chertsey]

Get into an area where you are on your own and practice the "holding station" - holding your position in the water without moving very much, using forward and reverse and your rudder to stay in position. Once you can do this try it in the wind - more difficult!

 

If you can execute the manouvre it will give you much more confidence on narrow blind bends, etc, because you know that when you're in that situation you can slow right down and if necessary come to a complete stop while still maintaining control, which gives you and the oncoming boater more time to decide what to do without going into panic mode.

I can see that this might be necessary sometimes when you have a widebeam. Ninety nine percent of the time though it's other people's inability to keep moving and get out of the way that causes problems around bridgeholes etc.

[alan_fincher]

Alternatively if the thought of head on collisions keeps you awake at night, you could see if a certain forum member will let you borrow his boat.

 

With a solution like this, it's really only the other bloke that needs to worry.....

 

 

 

After some things that have happened in the past, I suppose I should clarify that I am not actually really encouraging anybody to run an icebreaker tug full tilt at somebody else's boat. It's probably actually a bad idea! Clear enough?

Edited May 10, 2011 by alan_fincher

[Chertsey]

Alternatively if the thought of head on collisions keeps you awake at night, you could see if a certain forum member will let you borrow his boat.

 

With a solution like this, it's really only the other bloke that needs to worry.....

 

[After some things that have happened in the past, I suppose I should clarify that I am not actually really encouraging anybody to run an icebreaker tug full tilt at somebody else's boat. It's probably actually a bad idea! Clear enough?

Third party insurance quite reassuring in some cases.

 

What a shame there's only one quite like that Alan.

ed. cos I did that really annoying thing of quoting the photos. Grrr.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Chertsey

[Tiny]

I can see that this might be necessary sometimes when you have a widebeam. Ninety nine percent of the time though it's other people's inability to keep moving and get out of the way that causes problems around bridgeholes etc.

 

It's amazing how often this happens as the other boat comes through then goes into nuetral/reverse with the wife furiously waving them forward from the front (pointing which side in many cases as us being there seems to confuse them.

 

Then there are the 'The boat behind (often 50yards behind) is coming too, keep back' privates. Often our going through between has led to an exchange of words even though the boat going through and their distant mate don't have to break stride. (In one case the clown going through slammed into reverse to defend the bridge from us even though we were moving in behind him. Going through bridge and avoiding his swinging backing back end meant we had to go round the approaching boat who, seeing us coming slewed across the cut swearing in a most unpleasent way as we dodged round her back end. None of this was necessary if they had just kept going but then we were passed by them later when they ploughed past a line of moored boats at full speed, exchanging messages, rammed the last boat in line then told it (a hire) to moor properly. With folks like that avoiding an accident can be difficult.)

[Timx]

Cotrary to other views it is an unavoidable contact sport,so accept it ,just be sensible and do things correctly then if you try to do things right,its not your fault, just a challenge to be enjoyed, and dont get angery , smile, laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you cry alone...

 

Tim

 

I wish everyone was as perfect as me , lol

 

but then again id hate to drive a nb sober.

[blackrose]

I can see that this might be necessary sometimes when you have a widebeam. Ninety nine percent of the time though it's other people's inability to keep moving and get out of the way that causes problems around bridgeholes etc.

 

True, but it's necessary to know how to hold one's position in the water for other situations too, such as hovering around while waiting for a lock, especially busy manned locks on rivers when you're waiting for boats to exit and the lock landing is full.

Edited May 14, 2011 by blackrose

[Randwick]

Kidlington, South Oxford. Scene of many hilarious encounters for observers. Boats going too fast through bridge hole meeting boats going too fast past linear moorings meeting on bend just after bridge. Total chaos as one boat ends up in very prickly hedge (hawthorn) with wildly gesticulating crew on foredeck, the other across the cut after slamming it astern and losing all directional control. (You can see the scars on my boat as a result). I lost count of the number of times this happened recently with boats returning from Beale Park - when will people remember that the South Oxford is shallower than the Thames they have been on and ease off a little, especially when passing moored boats!

Edited July 1, 2011 by Randwick

[mrsmelly]

Kidlington, South Oxford. Scene of many hilarious encounters for observers. Boats going too fast through bridge hole meeting boats going too fast past linear moorings meeting on bend just after bridge. Total chaos as one boat ends up in very prickly hedge (hawthorn) with wildly gesticulating crew on foredeck, the other across the cut after slamming it astern and losing all directional control. (You can see the scars on my boat as a result). I lost count of the number of times this happened recently with boats returning from Beale Park - when will people remember that the South Oxford is shallower than the Thames they have been on and ease off a little, especially when passing moored boats!

 

The South oxford is shallower than a bird bath !! Ask young PJ.........

[NB Alnwick]

I don't agree with the oft expressed opinion that inland boating is a 'contact sport' - this is usually no more than an excuse for, at best, not paying proper attention and, at worst, plain ignorance or inexperience. A skilful boater paying proper attention to the prevailing circumstances can usually avoid collisions with other boats. Obviously, we all make the occasional mistake but it isn't difficult to avoid most potential collisions.

 

I would guess that the most frequent cause of collisions on the inland waterways would be down to a serious error of judgement - possibly where the steerer has panicked.

 

Those who instinctively approach blind bends, bridges and obstructions slowly and with due caution are rarely involved in collisions.

 

Most sensible boaters will do their best to avoid collisions. Even though many steel boats are built strong enough to survive the occasional knock, a sudden (and unexpected) collision has the potential to cause serious injury to those on board and damage to personal property within the boat.

[magpie patrick]

I don't agree with the oft expressed opinion that inland boating is a 'contact sport' - this is usually no more than an excuse for, at best, not paying proper attention and, at worst, plain ignorance or inexperience. A skilful boater paying proper attention to the prevailing circumstances can usually avoid collisions with other boats. Obviously, we all make the occasional mistake but it isn't difficult to avoid most potential collisions.

 

I would guess that the most frequent cause of collisions on the inland waterways would be down to a serious error of judgement - possibly where the steerer has panicked.

 

Those who instinctively approach blind bends, bridges and obstructions slowly and with due caution are rarely involved in collisions.

 

Most sensible boaters will do their best to avoid collisions. Even though many steel boats are built strong enough to survive the occasional knock, a sudden (and unexpected) collision has the potential to cause serious injury to those on board and damage to personal property within the boat.

 

At the risk of being accused of being a pedant Graham, I'm not sure "contact" and "collision" are the same thing, making contact is sometimes unavoidable, clobbering something is usually totally avoidable

[carlt]

At the risk of being accused of being a pedant Graham, I'm not sure "contact" and "collision" are the same thing, making contact is sometimes unavoidable, clobbering something is usually totally avoidable

That's rather at odds with the term, as used in real sport where, for example, Rugby being a "contact" sport, they attempt to beat the crap out of each other and Football, a "non-contact" sport, where making contact is sometimes unavoidable.

[magpie patrick]

That's rather at odds with the term, as used in real sport where, for example, Rugby being a "contact" sport, they attempt to beat the crap out of each other and Football, a "non-contact" sport, where making contact is sometimes unavoidable.

 

I shall get my pedant hat and place it on my pedant head

 

 

Soccer is a contact sport as the rules allow limited contact in some instances, the term "collision sport" is creeping in to medical terminology for rugby, basket ball is non-contact where it is a foul to touch another player

 

I would use the adhesive terminology (contact and impact) except if you can't separate the boats afterwards you really have overdone it!

[carlt]

I shall get my pedant hat and place it on my pedant head

 

I think that the hat is of the "firm opinion" variety, rather than "pedant".

 

It was firmly drilled into us, at grammar school, that Rugby Football is a contact sport, whereas Association Football (do we really need to use the term 'soccer') is a non-contact sport because, in AF, no contact is necessary for the overpaid primadonnas to fall over.

 

Like your use of the word "soccer", I always thought "collision sport" was an americanism.

Edited July 2, 2011 by carlt

[magpie patrick]

I rather think that the hat is of the "firm opinion" variety, than "pedant".

 

It was firmly drilled into us, at grammar school, that Rugby Football is a contact sport, whereas Association Football (do we really need to use the term 'soccer') is a non-contact sport because, in AF, no contact is necessary for the overpaid primadonnas to fall over.

 

Like your use of the word "soccer", I always thought "collision sport" was an americanism.

 

 

Oooh, grammar school, there's posh

 

At my bog standard comp only basketball was described as non contact, because contact was forbidden (if I recall, each player has an imaginary tube around them that an opponent must not enter) for footy we, being oiks at a comprehensive were taught the now vanishing art of the shoulder charge, mind you give how the overpaid primadonna's fall over without contact, I do wonder how they would react to a good old fashioned approach of Nobby Stiles or Norman Hunter!

 

I think "collision sport" is a medicalism as much as am Americanism

 

The point I was trying to get across (and I might stand a chance as Phylis is on holiday for two weeks!) is that SOME contact is almost inevitable, but a collision shows either negligence or malice. I would agree the rules of engagement on a canal are more akin to association football than rugby, in that limited contact is permitted, but not encouraged

[Tiny]

I don't agree with the oft expressed opinion that inland boating is a 'contact sport' - this is usually no more than an excuse for, at best, not paying proper attention and, at worst, plain ignorance or inexperience. A skilful boater paying proper attention to the prevailing circumstances can usually avoid collisions with other boats. Obviously, we all make the occasional mistake but it isn't difficult to avoid most potential collisions.

 

I would guess that the most frequent cause of collisions on the inland waterways would be down to a serious error of judgement - possibly where the steerer has panicked.

 

Those who instinctively approach blind bends, bridges and obstructions slowly and with due caution are rarely involved in collisions.

 

Most sensible boaters will do their best to avoid collisions. Even though many steel boats are built strong enough to survive the occasional knock, a sudden (and unexpected) collision has the potential to cause serious injury to those on board and damage to personal property within the boat.

 

Certainly on blind bends one often finds someone coming the other way not expecting anyone to come round the bend towards them. (Its the same on the narrow lane round us though here at least we have brakes.) Both on the road and on the cut we approach bends expecting someone to come the other way and for that person to be an idiot. So we try to position the boat/car to possibly go either side of what might come and are ready to hit reverse (or the brakes)if needed. On the road this means we are often stopped before white van man slams on his anchors (while we go into fast reverse). On the cut we are prepared to try to get round the oncoming or at least avoid him and often the first action is to hit reverse while controlling where we are heading. Of course every meeting is slightly different and requires different action to avoid the oncoming whatever he might be up to.

 

Strangely the avoid is often more difficult with private boaters than hirers. Often hirers are ameanable to a bit of give and take as we tell them how to get past while we sort of steer round them. Privates on the other hand often ignore us and even assume they have the right of way as we are stopped/slowed. So they keep moving and often speed up - steering a course that gives no room for us - they often taking the shortest line to the next corner and forcing us into some fancy stuff to get by them. If you suggest they might move a little you often get a mouthful - at which point we rather hope that next time this private meets an equally uncaring one going the other way - so they can exchange insults and paint.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Tiny

[Hairy-Neil]

 

 

Like your use of the word "soccer", I always thought "collision sport" was an americanism.

 

Pot, Kettle, Black.....

 

clicky

Edited July 2, 2011 by Hairy-Neil

[Timleech]

I think that the hat is of the "firm opinion" variety, rather than "pedant".

 

It was firmly drilled into us, at grammar school, that Rugby Football is a contact sport, whereas Association Football (do we really need to use the term 'soccer') is a non-contact sport because, in AF, no contact is necessary for the overpaid primadonnas to fall over.

 

Like your use of the word "soccer", I always thought "collision sport" was an americanism.

 

Soccer is, I think, verging on obsolete rather than Amurican, and possibly also more used in public school than by the rest of us. It was certainly used in my (grammar) school, but that may partly be because it was in Rugby and (therefore?) the school winter game was rugby.

 

Tim

Edited July 2, 2011 by Timleech