I got hurt

[mayalld]

Why are these quick paddle openers never around when I need them! Most are too busy helping their husbands tie up the boat (come on, these boats ain't big enough to need two crew!), or too busy yapping to someone else, leaving me to handle a full sized boat and the lock!

 

Even when they do help, I usually have to tell them several times to lift all the paddles straight up. Apart from odd locks where there are only large gate paddles I've never had a problem with opening all paddles up in one - even when I'm single handed (including heartbreak hill with a 50ft boat holding in the back of the lock (with crew that time!)).

 

Whilst it may be useful to you when single handed to have the crew of other boats work locks for you, it isn't a right, and if they wish to do something else instead, they are free to do so!

 

Actually the lock crew are responsable for the safety of the boat - most people forget this and go wondering off, or chatting to other people without watching what is happening with the boat. A regular crew should be able to understand the ability of the person driving to know how much paddle is required.

 

No. At any one time, there must be a single person who is in command of the vessel. That is usually the steerer (or possibly the person supervising the steerer). That person is where the buck stops, and he bears overall responsibility for the safety of the vessel. Others may be responsible to the steerer for the safe performance of their function, but overall responsibility is never divided.

[Chertsey]

The trouble is that so much depends on telepathy... The joy of finding you're working with someone who understands things the same way as you and you immediately fall itno a rhythm.

 

The steerer is always right? Even when he wants to tie his boat front and back with another boat in the lock before letting anyone touch a paddle? It's not a case of wanting things done quicker, but of do we really want to encourage such OTT carefulness (which could in itself be dangerous)?

 

Having recently spent a week tied up just above a lock have had ample opportunity to witness both breathtaking incompetance and maddening preciousness - never, sadly, at the same time. My favourite was watching a working boat coming into the lock. As their crew strarted to shut the gate on their side, the steerer of the boat that was to share called out to them not to shut it until he was in - not sure how much extra space he thought that would give him or what he would do if ever confronted by a narrow lock.

[FadeToScarlet]

Having recently spent a week tied up just above a lock have had ample opportunity to witness both breathtaking incompetance and maddening preciousness - never, sadly, at the same time. My favourite was watching a working boat coming into the lock. As their crew strarted to shut the gate on their side, the steerer of the boat that was to share called out to them not to shut it until he was in - not sure how much extra space he thought that would give him or what he would do if ever confronted by a narrow lock.

 

Maybe the steerer of that boat was a BW bod, and wanted to prevent any possibility of rubbing a hole in the mitre of the gate from bashing it.

[nb Innisfree]

Whilst it may be useful to you when single handed to have the crew of other boats work locks for you, it isn't a right, and if they wish to do something else instead, they are free to do so!

 

 

 

No. At any one time, there must be a single person who is in command of the vessel. That is usually the steerer (or possibly the person supervising the steerer). That person is where the buck stops, and he bears overall responsibility for the safety of the vessel. Others may be responsible to the steerer for the safe performance of their function, but overall responsibility is never divided.

 

If the steerer is on the boat in a lock then responsibility for the boat is with lock operator, only he/she can take action to refill lock if boat is caught on cill, steerer of course should be happy with competence of lock operator.

[chieftiff]

No. At any one time, there must be a single person who is in command of the vessel. That is usually the steerer (or possibly the person supervising the steerer). That person is where the buck stops, and he bears overall responsibility for the safety of the vessel. Others may be responsible to the steerer for the safe performance of their function, but overall responsibility is never divided.

 

I'm struggling with your logic or a reference for that matter. "Command" of a vessel may lie with the skipper (and after a long career in the RN I'm chuckling at the suggestion that a NB requires commanding), the responsibility for its safety lies with whoever is in a position to do something about it! There are no lines of responsibility, no sloping of shoulders or willy waving about who is in charge; at the end of the day locking of even the longest of narrowboats is an incredibly simple and risk free procedure and can be done quickly and efficiently providing everybody knows what to expect and what they are meant to be doing. Things only tend to go wrong when people fail to communicate, prat around or are more worried about their paintwork than the safety of themselves or those around them. I'm serious on that point, I grabbed an old fella from falling in only a couple of weeks ago, just as the gates were opened by my wife he thought it an ideal time to totter along the gunwhale inserting loose fenders to save his paintwork while his wife (I assume) pointed out the contact points between the two boats and the lock side, completely idiotic.

 

I'm with Mykaskin here by the way, I get incredibly frustrated when I see people fanny about at locks walking up and down slowly and precisely ensuring every little detail is just so, I often wonder if their precious little habits aren't more dangerous than just getting on with it, assuming they know what they are doing I tend to just sit back and watch.

[mayalld]

If the steerer is on the boat in a lock then responsibility for the boat is with lock operator, only he/she can take action to refill lock if boat is caught on cill, steerer of course should be happy with competence of lock operator.

 

Nope.

 

Whilst the lock operator may well be responsible to the steerer, the buck stops with the steerer.

[Patterdale]

If it was me, I would be having flashbacks, nightmares, panick attacks, insomnia and all the other things policemen get when they want to "retire" early.

[WJM]

"I'm struggling..."

 

Multiple human brains require some system of synchronisation.

 

In certain circumstances I reckon I am quicker and safer single-handed. Less brain synchronisation!

[chieftiff]

"I'm struggling..."

 

Multiple human brains require some system of synchronisation.

 

In certain circumstances I reckon I am quicker and safer single-handed. Less brain synchronisation!

 

Then you need someone with the leadership that comes by way of authority to synchronise your multiple brains, not responsibility.

[chieftiff]

Nope.

 

Whilst the lock operator may well be responsible to the steerer, the buck stops with the steerer.

 

The responsibility transfers during the process, nobody is responsible for the actions of another in this circumstance. Whilst the authority to be in charge of the vessel may be a perk of ownership it isn't going to stand up in court, there is no legally registered or qualified captain as international maritime law applies to only a few, very well known canals (Suez springs to mind). The inland waterway's owner sets out the laws which apply on it and BW haven't seen fit to require qualified registered skippers or endow them with legal powers of authority over their crews.

 

If I open a paddle too fast and flood your boat without making any attempt to correct my mistake or one of your crew fall in and drown or are squashed I won't answer to you I will answer to the courts, you have no legal authority over me and I have no legal obligation to you. Your authority over your boat and the crews responsibility to you may work for your wife (it certainly wouldn't work for mine) or visiting crew but that's about where it finishes.

[nb Innisfree]

Nope.

 

Whilst the lock operator may well be responsible to the steerer, the buck stops with the steerer.

 

So if you are entering lock and boaters shut gates and open paddles without your say so (as stated in this thread) which results in damage/injury then it's your responsibility? I would say that because of their irresponsible actions they could be sued, then the buck would definitely stop with them

[mayalld]

The responsibility transfers during the process, nobody is responsible for the actions of another in this circumstance. Whilst the authority to be in charge of the vessel may be a perk of ownership it isn't going to stand up in court, there is no legally registered or qualified captain as international maritime law applies to only a few, very well known canals (Suez springs to mind). The inland waterway's owner sets out the laws which apply on it and BW haven't seen fit to require qualified registered skippers or endow them with legal powers of authority over their crews.

 

If I open a paddle too fast and flood your boat without making any attempt to correct my mistake or one of your crew fall in and drown or are squashed I won't answer to you I will answer to the courts, you have no legal authority over me and I have no legal obligation to you. Your authority over your boat and the crews responsibility to you may work for your wife (it certainly wouldn't work for mine) or visiting crew but that's about where it finishes.

 

Which is one of the prime reasons why the default position, so far as I am concerned is that "helpers" will not be allowed.

 

So if you are entering lock and boaters shut gates and open paddles without your say so (as stated in this thread) which results in damage/injury then it's your responsibility? I would say that because of their irresponsible actions they could be sued, then the buck would definitely stop with them

 

I am responsible for the safety of my vessel, and should keep an adequate watch for danger.

 

If I do so, then I will take all necessary measures to ensure that no unauthorised person interferes with the lock whilst my boat is within the lock. I will not enter the lock until I am satisfied that nobody is about to open a paddle without my say so.

[mykaskin]

Nope.

 

Whilst the lock operator may well be responsible to the steerer, the buck stops with the steerer.

 

The steerer can not stop the boat from sinking, only the lock operator (which is why single handing can be just as safe if not safer than mob handedness). Therefore, whether you like it or not, the safety of the boat transferes to the ones that can do something about it - sorry Captain you are no longer in charge of your vessel as much as you like to think you are!

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[Athy]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned this, so perhaps I am missing a point, but surely some of these abovementioned accidents could have been avoided if the boat in the lock had been secured by a rope?

[mayalld]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned this, so perhaps I am missing a point, but surely some of these abovementioned accidents could have been avoided if the boat in the lock had been secured by a rope?

 

Not half as many accidents as get caused by ropes!

[mykaskin]

I will not enter the lock until I am satisfied that nobody is about to open a paddle without my say so.

 

So long as you don't mind me using the lock while you wait!

[nb Innisfree]

Which is one of the prime reasons why the default position, so far as I am concerned is that "helpers" will not be allowed.

 

 

 

I am responsible for the safety of my vessel, and should keep an adequate watch for danger.

 

If I do so, then I will take all necessary measures to ensure that no unauthorised person interferes with the lock whilst my boat is within the lock. I will not enter the lock until I am satisfied that nobody is about to open a paddle without my say so.

 

So what happens if someone unauthorised rolls up unseen while you are manouvering your boat? from ensuring no one is there, walking to your boat, casting off, boarding then getting into the lock can take several minutes, you'd have to have psychic powers!

 

 

Which is one of the prime reasons why the default position, so far as I am concerned is that "helpers" will not be allowed.

 

 

 

I am responsible for the safety of my vessel, and should keep an adequate watch for danger.

 

If I do so, then I will take all necessary measures to ensure that no unauthorised person interferes with the lock whilst my boat is within the lock. I will not enter the lock until I am satisfied that nobody is about to open a paddle without my say so.

 

So what happens if someone unauthorised rolls up unseen while you are manouvering your boat? from ensuring no one is there, walking to your boat, casting off, boarding then getting into the lock can take several minutes, you'd have to have psychic powers!

[mayalld]

So long as you don't mind me using the lock while you wait!

 

Nope.

 

If the lock is set for me, and you are sufficiently bloody minded as to refuse to step away from the paddles, then nobody will be going anywhere.

 

So what happens if someone unauthorised rolls up unseen while you are manouvering your boat? from ensuring no one is there, walking to your boat, casting off, boarding then getting into the lock can take several minutes, you'd have to have psychic powers!

 

The situation would only arise if I was single handed.

[howardang]

The responsibility transfers during the process, nobody is responsible for the actions of another in this circumstance. Whilst the authority to be in charge of the vessel may be a perk of ownership it isn't going to stand up in court, there is no legally registered or qualified captain as international maritime law applies to only a few, very well known canals (Suez springs to mind). The inland waterway's owner sets out the laws which apply on it and BW haven't seen fit to require qualified registered skippers or endow them with legal powers of authority over their crews.

 

The definition of who is in charge of a vessel on BW waters is set out clearly in their by laws. It reads as follows in the para on definitions:-

"Master means the person having for the time being the command charge or management of a vessel". In that regard there is no difference between a sea going vessel and an inland craft. Qualifications such as you mention are irrelevant.

 

I would also disagree with the idea that this responsibility can change as a vessel enters a lock. A master is always in charge of his/her vessel and can't be fully in charge if not on board. The lock crew should always carry out the instructions of the person in charge on the boat and so should anyone volunteering help.

 

Howard

[nb Innisfree]

Nope.

 

If the lock is set for me, and you are sufficiently bloody minded as to refuse to step away from the paddles, then nobody will be going anywhere.

 

 

 

The situation would only arise if I was single handed.

 

So? Would you still be responsible for irresponsible person(s)? If vandals acted maliciously?

 

Sounds to me like you're living in an imaginary world where everything happens according to clearly set rules.

[sueb]

I at last know why locking has got so antisocial. People used to help each other, now they are scared to incase they do it wrong.

I go into a lock till I touch the gates and are happy to have the ground paddles whipped up. Keeping the boat in forward gear seems to solve most problems.

Sue

[haggis]

I at last know why locking has got so antisocial. People used to help each other, now they are scared to incase they do it wrong.

 

Sue

 

That's a good point, Sue. I have noticed that it is becoming the norm for boaters and their lock labourers to stay on their boat until the boat coming towards them has actually left the lock. If there hadn't been a boat coming towards them, they would have had to sort the water level and open the gates anyway so why not wander up and offer to help or at least be sociable? I must admit to being sorely tempted to close the gates after the departing boat in this situation on the grounds that the boat which MIGHT be waiting to come in is still securely tied wilth all crew on board .

 

Haggis

[mayalld]

I at last know why locking has got so antisocial. People used to help each other, now they are scared to incase they do it wrong.

I go into a lock till I touch the gates and are happy to have the ground paddles whipped up. Keeping the boat in forward gear seems to solve most problems.

Sue

 

It used to be the case that the vast majority knew how to operate locks with consideration.

 

Unfortunately, an increasing number operate locks with other people's boats in with the sole objective of gaining the lock 30 seconds earlier, regardless of the potential damage.

 

I too help people, but I take great pains to ensure that I do so on their terms.

 

Like you, I usually ride the forward gate, but in some locks, whipping the paddles up can throw you back several feet, before dragging you forward again.

 

We are not the Sunday Drivers of the canals, and whilst considerate use of paddles may add a few seconds at one point, we more than make up for that in the efficiency of our overall operation.

[alan_fincher]

It used to be the case that the vast majority knew how to operate locks with consideration.

 

Unfortunately, an increasing number operate locks with other people's boats in with the sole objective of gaining the lock 30 seconds earlier, regardless of the potential damage.

This is not really my experience, to be honest.

 

I had more than a 30 year break in boat owning between selling my previous narrowboat in the 1970s, and buying this one 4 years ago.

 

I'd say, if anything, that overall courtesy has improved, and examples of really bad behaviour have diminished, in percentage terms, at least.

 

Clearly some canals have got a whole heap busier in the intervening years, particularly at peak times, and this obviously can increase tensions if people are forced to wait a lot longer than they feel needs to be the case, (and some people really are very slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww).

 

I've disagreed with Dave about a number of things, but think he is right about ropes, which increasingly I think only have a role in most normal canal locks for certain purposes, (an example might be to hold one boat tight against the edge of a double lock, to ensure it doesn't drift across as a neighbour enters - not necessary with bow and stern thrusters, of course. ).

 

We were "fortunate" enough to have the centre ring pull off our boat on one of our last big trips. It forced us to go up Stoke Bruerne and Buckby flights, and down Braunston with no available centre line. I was amazed how small a problem this proved in practice, and we have now completely adapted our boating style to very rarely put any line ashore in a lock, (i.e. we are back to how I used to do things 40 years ago, before I saw most people no longer do). A great improvement, and one source of danger fully removed.

 

Obviously if we are in a deep wide lock, or on a river where you are meant to rope yourself to bollards or wires when going up and down, we still do what is required, but not as a general practice in "normal" canal locks, any more.

[Smelly]

I'm with Sir Nibble...

 

In the vast majority of cases catching the steerer's eye and looking willing, windlass in hand is enough. It's already been said that it's the wheeler in charge, especially when my wheeler is deaf so wouldn't hear me screaming... We'll be setting ahead if both of us are off the boat but not if I'm steering.