I got hurt

[mayalld]

A bit girlie probably but I don't like to scrape my precious blacking against hard surface, only like to make contact with hard surfaces with buttons or fenders but happy not to use side fenders in locks only rubbing strakes. To avoid hard impact with cill you need to be almost at a standstill when contacting it which involves a lot of throttle juggling, just easier to stand back.

 

Hardly "a lot of throttle juggling".

 

as you go in, you use reverse to take the way off with an aim of stopping just short (say a foot short) of the riding board, and if you know your boat, you will be able to judge that to within a foot. Once you have actually stopped, just nudge into forward gear. You will have no time to build up any speed before the riding board cushions your impact (and they do have a bit of "give").

 

Once touched, just nudge it into fast tickover, and gently draw paddles.

 

You still can't fling the paddles up, because that would throw you back 6 feet before dragging you forwards, but trying to hold a position mid chamber without a lot of revs in those locks requires the paddles to be drawn VERY gingerly indeed.

[nb Innisfree]

No you approach dead slow and leave it in tickover, that way you only scrape a bit of black off the stem iron, which can easily be touched up, if it concerns you.

 

Standing back, in many locks, means that the boat is being lurched backwards and forwards.

 

This means someone has to stay on the boat, whilst in the lock.

 

Thats my point, not being single handed I like to stay with boat, but even dead slow it makes, to me, a horrible metal against stone thump rather than a cushioned stop on the front button. How do you touch up under water because that's where most impacts occur.

Edited July 1, 2009 by nb Innisfree

[carlt]

Thats my point, not being single handed I like to stay with boat, but even dead slow it makes, to me, a horrible metal against stone thump rather than a cushioned stop on the front button. How do you touch up under water because that's where most impacts occur. (in my case as boat is ballasted level)

Even when I have a crew nobody stays on my boat, in a lock (unless instructed to, by a lock keeper).

 

I don't know about touching up a stem iron, under water, I've never tried it. It isn't likely to suffer, before the next blacking and nobody can see it.

[MoominPapa]

Even when I have a crew nobody stays on my boat, in a lock (unless instructed to, by a lock keeper).

Why? I'm genuinely curious.

 

MP.

[jactomtroub]

How is that rude?

 

With the best will in the world, unless you can identify the boat, what on earth can they do about it.

 

Clearly a hire company should deal with hirers who have caused a problem, but equally clearly their business depends upon customer goodwill, and upon past customers returning. It would be unreasonable to expect them to challenge the crew of every boat that they have out on hire about this incident.

 

It was rude because thats all they said. Not sorry you had this experience or anything. Also I did give them details of the boat - they cant have that may crews from Stockholm in any one week. I do not expect them to challenge every crew just reassure me that thier trainers have been informed of this problem. After all if it is about reputation and goodwill this incident does not reflect well on them. I do not think I am being unreasonable to expect them to do something after all I am the one with the injury after all.

[carlt]

Why? I'm genuinely curious.

 

MP.

Because I don't think there's any need and, having almost lost my dog, in a lock incident, and seen someone lose their boat, I think the best place to be is on the bank.

[nb Innisfree]

Because I don't think there's any need and, having almost lost my dog, in a lock incident, and seen someone lose their boat, I think the best place to be is on the bank.

A captain should always go down with his boat (saluting)

[mayalld]

It was rude because thats all they said. Not sorry you had this experience or anything. Also I did give them details of the boat - they cant have that may crews from Stockholm in any one week. I do not expect them to challenge every crew just reassure me that thier trainers have been informed of this problem. After all if it is about reputation and goodwill this incident does not reflect well on them. I do not think I am being unreasonable to expect them to do something after all I am the one with the injury after all.

 

OK, did you make clear that what you were asking for was for them to review their training? If not, the natural assumption will be that you want them to "do something" about these particular offenders.

 

You say that they can't have that many crews from Stockholm in a week. Sorry, but yes they can. Many hire firms do a lot of overseas business.

 

You say that you want them to "do something", but what are they to do? Unless they can identify a reason why their customers didn't take on board all that they were told, anything they do would just be a knee jerk reaction.

[carlt]

A captain should always go down with his boat (saluting)

That's what I keep telling her but she insists on getting off, too.

[mayalld]

Because I don't think there's any need and, having almost lost my dog, in a lock incident, and seen someone lose their boat, I think the best place to be is on the bank.

 

Possibly.

 

However, in assessing the risks, you have to factor in the additional risks incurred in getting eveybody on and off the boat, and the reduction in capacity to control the vessel in the lock.

 

It isn't a black and white thing.

[chieftiff]

The definition of who is in charge of a vessel on BW waters is set out clearly in their by laws. It reads as follows in the para on definitions:-

"Master means the person having for the time being the command charge or management of a vessel". In that regard there is no difference between a sea going vessel and an inland craft. Qualifications such as you mention are irrelevant.

 

I would also disagree with the idea that this responsibility can change as a vessel enters a lock. A master is always in charge of his/her vessel and can't be fully in charge if not on board. The lock crew should always carry out the instructions of the person in charge on the boat and so should anyone volunteering help.

 

Howard

 

You've missed my point, being in charge of a vessel does carry with it responsibility, you are responsible for any damage that the vessel causes to others for example in exactly the same way as the law will hold you responsible when driving a car. However, it does not invest in you any legal authority or responsibility for the actions of members of your crew when they are operating a lock, strolling along the footpath or wearing a ridiculous hat. The Law will hold that person responsible for their actions, there may be some secondary liability of course if you trained your crew to operate locks incorrectly!

 

The whole thing raises a few points, the master of a sea going vessel subject to international maritime law is invested with certain legal powers over his crew which a canalboat skipper certainly isn't, authority without power is absolutely worthless which is why the previous inference that a narrowboat crew are responsible to the steerer is humorous, just exactly what punishment are you going to dole out should they fail to respond to your command... the brig until you hand them over to the authorities, or I suppose you could just put them ashore at the next port and make them fund their own way home. The whole comparison of a narrowboat steerer to a sea going vessel's skipper is humorous, a better comparison is to a car's driver - you're still responsible for ensuring the crew of your car wear seatbelts - legally.

[nb Innisfree]

You've missed my point, being in charge of a vessel does carry with it responsibility, you are responsible for any damage that the vessel causes to others for example in exactly the same way as the law will hold you responsible when driving a car. However, it does not invest in you any legal authority or responsibility for the actions of members of your crew when they are operating a lock, strolling along the footpath or wearing a ridiculous hat. The Law will hold that person responsible for their actions, there may be some secondary liability of course if you trained your crew to operate locks incorrectly!

 

The whole thing raises a few points, the master of a sea going vessel subject to international maritime law is invested with certain legal powers over his crew which a canalboat skipper certainly isn't, authority without power is absolutely worthless which is why the previous inference that a narrowboat crew are responsible to the steerer is humorous, just exactly what punishment are you going to dole out should they fail to respond to your command... the brig until you hand them over to the authorities, or I suppose you could just put them ashore at the next port and make them fund their own way home. The whole comparison of a narrowboat steerer to a sea going vessel's skipper is humorous, a better comparison is to a car's driver - you're still responsible for ensuring the crew of your car wear seatbelts - legally.

 

If some dizzy blonde caused my boat to be put at risk I would take her on board and give her a captains spanking

[chieftiff]

If some dizzy blonde caused my boat to be put at risk I would take her on board and give her a captains spanking

 

Daily spanking comes under terms of employment, my skipper (SWMBO) hands them out for the smallest of errors

[Iain_S]

(snip)

The whole comparison of a narrowboat steerer to a sea going vessel's skipper is humorous, a better comparison is to a car's driver - you're still responsible for ensuring the crew of your car wear seatbelts - legally.

Oh no you're not (Unless they're not adults)

Iain

[nb Innisfree]

Daily spanking comes under terms of employment, my skipper (SWMBO) hands them out for the smallest of errors

 

Does she want a crew member?

[sociable_hermit]

I don't see anything wrong with helping other boats through locks, PROVIDING you act with respect and pay attention.

 

I always watch what the boat's own crew are doing, and I watch what their boat does, too.

 

Many crews will wordlessly accept you, and trust that you'll look after their boat. I like the way canal people do that, and I have no intention of letting anyone down.

 

The majority of people we've met have been really helpful. There is a tendency for some to wind open the gate paddles as soon as they can, which bounces my 40' boat around a bit, but most will watch what we are doing and follow suit.

 

I don't agree with treating everyone like an idiot. I know there are a few around, but taking this attitude is just confrontational for the 95% who are good boaters. Innocent until proven guilty. If someone is a tw@t we'll tell 'em, but not before.

[mayalld]

I don't agree with treating everyone like an idiot. I know there are a few around, but taking this attitude is just confrontational for the 95% who are good boaters. Innocent until proven guilty. If someone is a tw@t we'll tell 'em, but not before.

It isn't about treating everybody like an idiot.

 

It is about not allowing somebody whose skills you are unsure of take risks with your boat.

 

You may be willing to risk being smashed about a bit in the name of being non-confrontational. I'm not.

[mayalld]

The whole thing raises a few points, the master of a sea going vessel subject to international maritime law is invested with certain legal powers over his crew which a canalboat skipper certainly isn't, authority without power is absolutely worthless which is why the previous inference that a narrowboat crew are responsible to the steerer is humorous, just exactly what punishment are you going to dole out should they fail to respond to your command... the brig until you hand them over to the authorities, or I suppose you could just put them ashore at the next port and make them fund their own way home. The whole comparison of a narrowboat steerer to a sea going vessel's skipper is humorous, a better comparison is to a car's driver - you're still responsible for ensuring the crew of your car wear seatbelts - legally.

 

Ah, this is excellent! A post confidently stating something to be a fact, when it is no such thing.

 

The skipper of a narrowboat does have certain legal powers, just like his sea going counterpart, and if the narrowboat is registered on the small ships register (a snip at £12 for 5 years), his powers are substantially the same.

 

Just take a read through the Merchant Shipping Act.

 

Sadly, we had to compromise on having a brig fitted, in favour of a larger bathroom! I have often wondered what we will do with somebody that I arrest under s105 of MSA 1995.

 

It is a condition of being aboard Mr Jinks that you accept that the skipper is in charge, and yes, I would remove people if they don't accept it.

 

And finally, the driver of a motor vehicle is NOT responsible for his passengers seat belts (unless the passengers are children).

[Chertsey]

You may be willing to risk being smashed about a bit in the name of being non-confrontational. I'm not.

 

How terrible is that risk? I understand the dangers of being flooded by premature and/or over-enthusiastic opening of gate paddles, which is clearly to be avoided. I also know that whipping any paddles up too fast can lead to a lot of buffetting and bouncing about. But on a steel boat, what is going to get smashed? I have very little sympathy with people who complain about crockery, ornaments etc getting broken - it is a boat, not a house, and they should always be secured against that sort of thing which is always a possibility, whether in a lock or in any number of other situations. If people realised this and behaved accordingly then they could relax and enjoy their boating a lot more.

 

Still it would be hard to beat the example recounted to me last night by OH who is single handing for the first time down the GU. He was sharing locks yesterday with someone who insisted on tying up with THREE ropes in every lock, and constantly climbing up and down the ladder to adjust them.

[mikevye]

But on a steel boat, what is going to get smashed? I have very little sympathy with people who complain about crockery, ornaments etc getting broken - it is a boat, not a house, and they should always be secured against that sort of thing which is always a possibility, whether in a lock or in any number of other situations. If people realised this and behaved accordingly then they could relax and enjoy their boating a lot more.

 

Personally I stick everything down with blue tack, problem sorted!

[Chertsey]

Personally I stick everything down with blue tack, problem sorted!

 

I was quite upset last week when a favourite glass of mine got broken, but my ire was aimed at the person who left it on the draining board, not the one who bounced about in the lock.

[roger]

Whilst it may be useful to you when single handed to have the crew of other boats work locks for you, it isn't a right, and if they wish to do something else instead, they are free to do so!

 

No. At any one time, there must be a single person who is in command of the vessel. That is usually the steerer (or possibly the person supervising the steerer). That person is where the buck stops, and he bears overall responsibility for the safety of the vessel. Others may be responsible to the steerer for the safe performance of their function, but overall responsibility is never divided.

 

The steerer might be in charge of the boat but I am deaf and i am a steerer and the attitude i get from people is applaing most of the time. They think because i am deaf they can do bloody well what they like and this extends to whiping up the paddles and ingnoring my attempts to signal to them NOT to do this and their attitudes which get worse as they realise i try to communicate in signs. I have found that even famous waterway personalities are just as bad this and my list sadly extends to a number of prestigious preserved boat organisations as well as the usual ignorant/egoist driven hire boaters. In my view the waterways are getting worse in every aspect of social ettiquette because people realise most things can be got away with on the cut and the more insignificant or lower down the social ladder the victims are then so much the better it seems.

[Tiny]

I mentioned Middlewich as a bit of a b****r because to avoid the cill (going up) you have to hold back and as water rises there is an increasingly strong pull forward and you have to be in reverse all the time to enable you to approach gate constantly and slowly, if you are distracted for a short while then boat gathers speed rapidly when big fistfulls of reverse are needed, even worse if it's your first time there!

 

Going up from Middlewich to Kidsgrove on the T&M the main danger to paintwork above the irons in locks is the large stone blocks near the top level (used to guide boats in from above?) that often stick out well proud of the locksside walls brickwork. The ones at King's lock are a prime example of this. We always reckon the signature marks of boats regularly using this canal is a patch of slightly diagonal near vertical scrapes in the paint below the gunnel and above the top iron. Meawhile the only 'paint' removed by going up the gate is that below the fender at the front. Meanwhile, using a rope to hold back attacted to one of the bollards (which here have been in place for years) will, due to rough edge surface of the lock and the movement of the boat in the lock once the paddles are drawn, saw through the rope very effectively within a few locks.

 

Incidentally, the reversing holding back technique is dodgy here at best and near impossible with boats over 50' in the falling leaf season.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Tiny

[nb Innisfree]

Going up from Middlewich to Kidsgrove on the T&M the main danger to paintwork above the irons in locks is the large stone blocks near the top level (used to guide boats in from above?) that often stick out well proud of the locksside walls brickwork. The ones at King's lock are a prime example of this. We always reckon the signature marks of boats regularly using this canal is a patch of slightly diagonal near vertical scrapes in the paint below the gunnel and above the top iron. Meawhile the only 'paint' removed by going up the gate is that below the fender at the front. Meanwhile, using a rope to hold back attacted to one of the bollards (which here have been in place for years) will, due to rough edge surface of the lock and the movement of the boat in the lock once the paddles are drawn, saw through the rope very effectively within a few locks.

 

Incidentally, the reversing holding back technique is dodgy here at best and near impossible with boats over 50' in the falling leaf season.

 

Just to add I was refering to the lock by the lockhouse, going to Barbridge. Good point about leaves, tho some times it can be struggle to make headway anywhere in Autumn!

[FadeToScarlet]

Thats my point, not being single handed I like to stay with boat, but even dead slow it makes, to me, a horrible metal against stone thump rather than a cushioned stop on the front button. How do you touch up under water because that's where most impacts occur.

 

You could always hang a car tyre or a fender from the T-stud, so it dangles down low and takes the impact from the cill- remove it once you've done the lock or flight!