Using phosphate-free detergents

[blackrose]

http://www.waterscape.com/features-and-art...free-detergents

[mayalld]

http://www.waterscape.com/features-and-art...free-detergents

 

How common is the use of phosphates in mass market products?

[137-Digital]

I don't know about phosphates but a lot do tend to have sulphates in them

[blackrose]

How common is the use of phosphates in mass market products?

 

I think it's fairly common in laundry powders and washing up liquids? Surely it's not in shower gels?

 

Since there is no obligation for us to have grey water tanks in this country and most of us discharge overboard, I think it's reasonable for BW and other authorities to ask us to spend a bit more on phosphate-free products. If there's a greater demand for these products then hopefully economies of scale will mean the prices will start to come closer to standard mass-market products.

[Machpoint005]

We always use Ecover products both at home and on the boat. They work really well with soft water, but I don't know how well they perform if there's a lot of calcium in the water (hardness). No doubt someone else can enlighten us?

[mayalld]

I think it's fairly common in laundry powders and washing up liquids? Surely it's not in shower gels?

 

Since there is no obligation for us to have grey water tanks in this country and most of us discharge overboard, I think it's reasonable for BW and other authorities to ask us to spend a bit more on phosphate-free products. If there's a greater demand for these products then hopefully economies of scale will mean the prices will start to come closer to standard mass-market products.

 

The whole thing looks like an excuse for the fluffy bunny lobby to demand that we all start using Ecover and the like.

[blackrose]

The whole thing looks like an excuse for the fluffy bunny lobby to demand that we all start using Ecover and the like.

 

In what way exactly? To me the article seemed to be a request from BW not a demand, and I'd hardly call BW the fluffy bunny lobby.

Edited October 23, 2008 by blackrose

[mayalld]

In what way exactly?

 

Read the BW piece.

 

They talk about phosphate free shower gels, and mention a couple of brands (no doubt 3 times the price of whatever it I would normally buy), and imply that unless your shower gel says "phosphate free" it isn't OK.

 

The simple truth is that most (almost all) shower gels and shampoos are phosphate free.

 

This is a very silly new rule (which I will abide by, of course), designed as a sop to the tree huggers by BW.

 

The simple fact is that this is only an issue because of the rise in washing machines on board.

 

So, not only do they hog the water points for hours, they are responsible for BW making rules that increase what I have to spend on washing up liquid.

[blackrose]

Read the BW piece.

 

They talk about phosphate free shower gels, and mention a couple of brands (no doubt 3 times the price of whatever it I would normally buy), and imply that unless your shower gel says "phosphate free" it isn't OK.

 

The simple truth is that most (almost all) shower gels and shampoos are phosphate free.

 

This is a very silly new rule (which I will abide by, of course), designed as a sop to the tree huggers by BW.

 

The simple fact is that this is only an issue because of the rise in washing machines on board.

 

So, not only do they hog the water points for hours, they are responsible for BW making rules that increase what I have to spend on washing up liquid.

 

I did read the BW piece, but that doesn't mean I interpreted it in the same way as you.

 

Perhaps you missed this bit in bold at the bottom of the article: Please note the products and services listed above are not specifically endorsed by British Waterways, and the list is not comprehensive.

 

The article doesn't imply to me that unless the product says "phosphate-free" it isn't, and if you're saying that the products you are already using are phosphate-free then it seems to me that you don't have to do anything, so I'm not quite sure what the problem is?

 

As a waterways authority BW would be negligent if they didn't make at least some attempt to encourage boaters to be aware of the problem and to act responsibly and I think they're being perfectly reasonable in making this request.

Edited October 23, 2008 by blackrose

[mayalld]

I did read the BW piece, but that doesn't mean I interpreted it in the same way as you.

 

Perhaps you missed this bit in bold at the bottom of the article: Please note the products and services listed above are not specifically endorsed by British Waterways, and the list is not comprehensive.

 

The article doesn't imply to me that unless the product says "phosphate-free" it isn't, and if you're saying that the products you are already using are phosphate-free then it seems to me that you don't have to do anything, so I'm not quite sure what the problem is?

 

As a waterways authority BW would be negligent if they didn't make at least some attempt to encourage boaters to be aware of the problem and to act responsibly and I think they're being perfectly reasonable in making this request.

 

"There are an increasing number of "green" products on the market, many of which will be phosphate-free (it will say on the label)"

 

That is plain wrong.

 

Very few shower gels say "phosphate free", because they all are.

[mayalld]

BW seem unable to get their story straight on this...

 

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/do...ctober_2008.pdf

Says "Phosphate free"

 

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/license-...avigation-rules

Says "bio-degradable"

 

Which is it?

[Keeping Up]

We always use Ecover products both at home and on the boat. They work really well with soft water, but I don't know how well they perform if there's a lot of calcium in the water (hardness). No doubt someone else can enlighten us?

We were given some Ecover washing-up liquid to try. The plates still felt greasy to the touch afterwards, so we then had to wash them again with our usual liquid. We quickly gave up.

[dor]

Very few shower gels say "phosphate free", because they all are.

 

I believe it is illegal for an advertiser to make a claim for something which is a standard. Therefore if legislation exists which means all shower gels are P-free, then you are not allowed to imply that yours is somehow better my making statements like Wonderwash is P-free". despite this, it is still a common tactic amongst the green brigade.

 

Very good new column started on the Guardian website -Greenwash - worth a read if you are paying extra for your "eco-friendly green" electricity:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/oct/23/energy

[Machpoint005]

We were given some Ecover washing-up liquid to try. The plates still felt greasy to the touch afterwards, so we then had to wash them again with our usual liquid. We quickly gave up.

 

Would that be in hard water, then? Ecover used to be rubbish some years ago, but seems OK to me now (the great washing up expert).

 

"There are an increasing number of "green" products on the market, many of which will be phosphate-free (it will say on the label)"

 

That is plain wrong.

 

Very few shower gels say "phosphate free", because they all are.

 

All shower products, shampoos etc have lists of ingredients (aqua, usually the first named, is water) so if any of those narsty chemicles says 'phos...' it's probably a phosphate, and if none of them looks like that, there hain't hany hinit.

 

I believe it is illegal for an advertiser to make a claim for something which is a standard. Therefore if legislation exists which means all shower gels are P-free, then you are not allowed to imply that yours is somehow better my making statements like Wonderwash is P-free". despite this, it is still a common tactic amongst the green brigade.

 

Very good new column started on the Guardian website -Greenwash - worth a read if you are paying extra for your "eco-friendly green" electricity:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/oct/23/energy

This is true of the 'big' operators, but have a look at Ecotricitylecky clicky, who generate over 20% of their lecky from renewables, and re-invest in more wind turbines and hydro schemes.

 

(edited to add link)

Edited October 23, 2008 by Machpoint005

[ditchcrawler]

I think it's fairly common in laundry powders and washing up liquids? Surely it's not in shower gels?

 

Since there is no obligation for us to have grey water tanks in this country and most of us discharge overboard, I think it's reasonable for BW and other authorities to ask us to spend a bit more on phosphate-free products. If there's a greater demand for these products then hopefully economies of scale will mean the prices will start to come closer to standard mass-market products.

Are the outlets at Wendover and Sewer Lock on the GU phosphate free?

[Tim Lewis]

In what way exactly? To me the article seemed to be a request from BW not a demand, and I'd hardly call BW the fluffy bunny lobby.

 

It's actually a condition under the new licensing rules so as such is a demand!

 

Tim

[Smelly]

Now don't grab me on the science as the connection's struggling a bit but...

 

"only bio-degradable soaps and detergents are used on board the Boat" this is a rule. (Dave...)

 

Now my understanding is that soaps and detergents must by law bio-degrade within x amount of time, it's the surfactants that aren't regulated as much. Probably just a good example of how HMG and it's minions can;t get anything right first draft but still, if we're indulging in pedantry...

 

We find Ecover fine, well wehn we've got enough cash anyways. Co-op do a good range of home brand stuff that suffices as well.

 

Next to come on Waterscape... grass up your nieghbours' detergent... the "Fairy hotline".

[NiceNarrowboat]

I use Ecover for everything that needs to be cleaned but I sometimes wonder whether I've fallen for a fancy sales pitch. I don't mind paying a little more, nor do I mind using less effective [in terms of cleaning] products around, but I am really interested in what is and what isn't 'eco-friendly' [realising that here, I actually mean less damaging than mainstream products which compete on price/brand.]

 

Any experts around to advise?

[magpie patrick]

I use Ecover for everything that needs to be cleaned but I sometimes wonder whether I've fallen for a fancy sales pitch. I don't mind paying a little more, nor do I mind using less effective [in terms of cleaning] products around, but I am really interested in what is and what isn't 'eco-friendly' [realising that here, I actually mean less damaging than mainstream products which compete on price/brand.]

 

Any experts around to advise?

 

we use ecover and similar on the boat: available for only a few pennies more at our local co-op in Oldfield Park. works fine

 

but not at home: tap water is so hard in Bath you can drive a nail into it, and we need extra strong stuff even to get normal grease off (yes I know, Greenpeace say hot water will work wonders on it's own: they didn't lve here!)

 

Showering isn't actually painful here, b ut it uses one heck of a lot of showergel

[Lady Muck]

I stopped using Ecover washing tablets because I didn't like them- I prefer a new brand, Simply Eco -comes in a black and green tub, you can get it in Morrisons and Sainsburys. I use Tescos eco friendly washing up liquid and trigger kitchen cleaner, think its called natural something or other. I don't use shower gel anymore, I use soap instead but am careful to buy traditionally made stuff (i.e. nothing with harsh detergents in). It's alot cheaper as well. Sometimes the old fashioned way is the best way.

 

I've heard there are some hippies that boycott Ecover because in order to prove it doesn't harm aquatic life they have to test it in experiments that poison aquatic life to see if it dies or not!

 

Actually looking at the Treehugger forums, aside from buying Ecover to wash your clothes and your dishes, the most eco friendly (and cheap) way is to do a Kim and Aggie and use lemon juice and vinegar...

[tillergirl]

You are quite correct in that all detegent based products in the EU have to be below a certain level for Ionic and non Ionic surfacants and its usually less than 5%. I don't recall when I used to do labelling that any detergents in this country contained phosphates at all.

Having said that I recently switched WUL to the Tesco Naturally range and I've used their wash tabs in the past and they've performed quite well here in our hard water area.

The real killers are anti bac cleaners and floor cleaners - some of those contain formaldehyde!!

 

BTW anyone tried those Washballs out yet? Do they work?

[ditchcrawler]

http://www.waterscape.com/features-and-art...free-detergents

I have just read the licence terms and conditions below and to me it just looks as if BW are asking you to use Phosphate free, not telling

 

 

(d) discharge anything into the Waterway

from the Boat except unpolluted surface

water that drains naturally or water from

sinks or showers, washing machines and

dishwashers. [We request that only

phosphate-free detergents are used on

board the Boat, particularly in washing

machines and dish washers.]

(e) obstruct the towpath or use our land

[Dyad]

I thought you had to use stuff like ecover or equivalent. Saying that my last company I hired from had a very suspicious bright green liquid in an ecover bottle. Cheapskates!

[Lady Muck]

You are quite correct in that all detegent based products in the EU have to be below a certain level for Ionic and non Ionic surfacants and its usually less than 5%. I don't recall when I used to do labelling that any detergents in this country contained phosphates at all.

Having said that I recently switched WUL to the Tesco Naturally range and I've used their wash tabs in the past and they've performed quite well here in our hard water area.

The real killers are anti bac cleaners and floor cleaners - some of those contain formaldehyde!!

 

BTW anyone tried those Washballs out yet? Do they work?

 

Those washballs are an absolute con, so I've heard.

[Keeping Up]

The real killers are anti bac cleaners and floor cleaners - some of those contain formaldehyde!!

After reading this and then looking at the label I've just discovered that the ordinary Tesco washing up liquid contains Formaldehyde as one of its main ingredients. I shan't be using that any more.