Bow Wave

[gatekrash]

6 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

On the other hand, it appears that drivers who enter restricted areas such as bus lanes to allow an ambulance or fire engine to pass, have been fined. My understanding, from stories in the press, is that the only circumstances under which such transgressions, or ignoring a red traffic light, are excusable, are when  under the instruction of a police officer in uniform. Uniformed firemen and ambulance crew don't count.

This is very true and what you'll see if you're at the front of a queue at a red traffic light is that sometimes the blue light vehicle will kill the sirens and sometimes the lights before getting to the front of the queue, and then turn everything back on when the lights change. Especially if it's busy.

 

We're taught never to push someone over a red light, the wrong side of a keep left etc etc. We'll use the bus lane ourselves but won't push people into it. If we cause someone else to have an accident then they become a casualty and that means we aren't going to get to whoever it was that we got called to in the first place.

 

Police on the other hand have a whole different set of exemptions from us.

 

I can remember down here many years ago a fire service driver being prosecuted for intimidating someone and pushing them through a red light only for a vehicle coming the other way to hit it at speed and cause a life changing set of injuries. Although the car driver was technically at fault, having a big red truck sat up your backside with the blues and twos going is pretty much threatening behaviour. Can't remember what the charge was but he was definitely dismissed from the service at the end of it.

 

[1st ade]

On 29/11/2024 at 17:56, magpie patrick said:

 

This is partly the result of automated enforcement. A police officer seeing you move into a bus lane to let an ambulance with blue lights on go past is unlikely to book you. The camera does catch you and now it's your job to justify your actions. Automated enforcement has many benefits but it does take reason out of the equation. 

Warning

As part of my job, I had to take a (police) driving test every three years in central London. As we approached a set of traffic lights where the bus lane ended, and I'd been instructed to turn left, the examiner warned "Don't move over to the left until past the bus lane, bus's have rear facing enforcement cameras..."

[MtB]

1 hour ago, 1st ade said:

Warning

As part of my job, I had to take a (police) driving test every three years in central London. As we approached a set of traffic lights where the bus lane ended, and I'd been instructed to turn left, the examiner warned "Don't move over to the left until past the bus lane, bus's have rear facing enforcement cameras..."

 

I got a bus lane fine many years ago, for clipping over the end of a bus lane to get into a turn left lane at traffic lights exactly as your examiner warned. I doubt I clipped the white line by more than about 4ft. I could never find the camera that saw me do it, never thought of it being on a bus! 

 

 

[Clanky]

On 29/11/2024 at 20:36, gatekrash said:

This is very true and what you'll see if you're at the front of a queue at a red traffic light is that sometimes the blue light vehicle will kill the sirens and sometimes the lights before getting to the front of the queue, and then turn everything back on when the lights change. Especially if it's busy.

 

We're taught never to push someone over a red light, the wrong side of a keep left etc etc. We'll use the bus lane ourselves but won't push people into it. If we cause someone else to have an accident then they become a casualty and that means we aren't going to get to whoever it was that we got called to in the first place.

 

Police on the other hand have a whole different set of exemptions from us.

 

I can remember down here many years ago a fire service driver being prosecuted for intimidating someone and pushing them through a red light only for a vehicle coming the other way to hit it at speed and cause a life changing set of injuries. Although the car driver was technically at fault, having a big red truck sat up your backside with the blues and twos going is pretty much threatening behaviour. Can't remember what the charge was but he was definitely dismissed from the service at the end of it.

 

EFAD training is all about making progress not how fast you can go, if the traffic is doing 10mph  and the appliance is doing 15mph then you’re making progress, you have a responsibility to get the crew there safely as well as the safety of the public. Just before I retired my brigade brought a policy out that if the driver caused an accident and was found guilty of an offence then they would claim any legal costs incurred back off that individual. 

[LadyG]

17 minutes ago, Clanky said:

EFAD training is all about making progress not how fast you can go, if the traffic is doing 10mph  and the appliance is doing 15mph then you’re making progress, you have a responsibility to get the crew there safely as well as the safety of the public. Just before I retired my brigade brought a policy out that if the driver caused an accident and was found guilty of an offence then they would claim any legal costs incurred back off that individual. 

That sounds like the employee would need to sign a new contract, I am very wary of this after my employer, a Local Authority presented me with one, it was still sitting in my filing tray a few months later when I was suddenly told to do some work previously done by some underling, looked like the thin edge of the wedge. It was not discussed with me , but when I queried it, I was immediately told it was in the new contract, I said , "good job I didn't sign it then"

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2024 by LadyG

[Laurie Booth]

On 26/11/2024 at 20:18, blackrose said:

 

 

Even if the tractor driver was an employee rather then the landowner it's still the employer's responsibility to ensure their drivers behave responsibly on public roads.

 

 

What a load of rubbish

[junior]

On 29/11/2024 at 20:36, gatekrash said:

This is very true and what you'll see if you're at the front of a queue at a red traffic light is that sometimes the blue light vehicle will kill the sirens and sometimes the lights before getting to the front of the queue, and then turn everything back on when the lights change. Especially if it's busy.

 

We're taught never to push someone over a red light, the wrong side of a keep left etc etc. We'll use the bus lane ourselves but won't push people into it. If we cause someone else to have an accident then they become a casualty and that means we aren't going to get to whoever it was that we got called to in the first place.

 

Police on the other hand have a whole different set of exemptions from us.

 

I can remember down here many years ago a fire service driver being prosecuted for intimidating someone and pushing them through a red light only for a vehicle coming the other way to hit it at speed and cause a life changing set of injuries. Although the car driver was technically at fault, having a big red truck sat up your backside with the blues and twos going is pretty much threatening behaviour. Can't remember what the charge was but he was definitely dismissed from the service at the end of it.

 

 

As far as I am aware, police have no different exemptions to this if drivers from other emergency services. There might be different ways the respective services teach their drivers as to what they expect of them in certain situations, and how they word their policies (policies are not law), but the legal exemptions in the Road Traffic Act apply to all emergency services drivers I think. 

Just now, junior said:

 

As far as I am aware, police have no different exemptions to drivers from other emergency services. There might be different ways the respective services teach their drivers as to what they expect of them in certain situations, and how they word their policies (policies are not law), but the legal exemptions in the Road Traffic Act apply to all emergency services drivers I think. 

 

[Graham Davis]

Under the Law a Police Constable can tell you to pass a red light or enter a proscribed area, but no other Emergency Services driver can tell you to do that. Other than that all Emergency Service drivers are subject to the same rules.

When I did my blue light training with Hereford & Worcester Ambulance (for St John Ambulance) it was conducted by West Mercia Police from their driving school at Hindlip Hall.

[junior]

44 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Under the Law a Police Constable can tell you to pass a red light or enter a proscribed area, but no other Emergency Services driver can tell you to do that. 

Ah, but a police car can't tell you to go through a red light. 

 

Like others have said, if a police vehicle with emergency equipment activated approaches a line of stationary traffic stopped at a red light, they will generally turn off the siren once they are forced to come to a stop because of the other stationary traffic (but leave lights on) to reduce the risk of them 'pushing' any of the cars through the red light and causing any sort of collision. The emphasis here on 'collision', as there is no risk here of that driver getting any sort of enforcement action for going through the red light due to the police vehicle presence.

 

You will generally people, quite rightly, doing their best to get out of the way, but that would then become their choice, rather than being 'forced' by the presence of the police car. 

 

There are of course exceptions to that rule.

Edited December 1, 2024 by junior

[ian Papworth]

Strange , I've seen them go through red lights. Even though they slowed right down and cautiously went through.

[Graham Davis]

12 minutes ago, ian Papworth said:

Strange , I've seen them go through red lights. Even though they slowed right down and cautiously went through.

 

They can when on a "blue light run", and we were taught that we had to treat them as "Give Way" junctions, so had to be prepared to stop if required. I don't think that has changed.

[junior]

35 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

 

They can when on a "blue light run", and we were taught that we had to treat them as "Give Way" junctions, so had to be prepared to stop if required. I don't think that has changed.

If we are sticking to facts, then the "only when on a blue light run", is factually incorrect. There exemption in law says nothing about being on a blue light run.

[Graham Davis]

I was using the common and most well understood term of "blue light run" but I am well aware of other criteria, thank you.

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, junior said:

Ah, but a police car can't tell you to go through a red light. 

 

Like others have said, if a police vehicle with emergency equipment activated approaches a line of stationary traffic stopped at a red light, they will generally turn off the siren once they are forced to come to a stop because of the other stationary traffic (but leave lights on) to reduce the risk of them 'pushing' any of the cars through the red light and causing any sort of collision. The emphasis here on 'collision', as there is no risk here of that driver getting any sort of enforcement action for going through the red light due to the police vehicle presence.

 

You will generally people, quite rightly, doing their best to get out of the way, but that would then become their choice, rather than being 'forced' by the presence of the police car. 

 

There are of course exceptions to that rule.

Is that because you are not allowed to sound your horn when stationary. I got pulled over for that once. I tooted at a police van that failed to pull away at a red light.

 

Actually remember now, I was pulled over because it was after the time that you are allowed to toot. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Tonka
Correction

[Alway Swilby]

However the emergency services are not allowed to pass flashing wig wag lights as found on railway crossings and canal bridges. The CRT key certainly deserves it's nickname "Key of Power".

[Jim Riley]

On 03/12/2024 at 00:03, Alway Swilby said:

However the emergency services are not allowed to pass flashing wig wag lights as found on railway crossings and canal bridges. The CRT key certainly deserves it's nickname "Key of Power".

That must get the max points in The Stop the Traffic game, above white vans and those that do a screeching u turn to go another way. They'd have to wait very patiently for the hand cranked one outside Leeds with hundreds of turns of the windey handle. 

[Peanut]

On 01/12/2024 at 11:43, Laurie Booth said:

What a load of rubbish

For a dull read on a wet day, it all comes under, "Vicarious Liability."

It's complicated and much will be under Case Law. (Not the Firm)

[Stroudwater1]

15 hours ago, Peanut said:

For a dull read on a wet day, it all comes under, "Vicarious Liability."

It's complicated and much will be under Case Law. (Not the Firm)

I think you are talking at cross purposes. Road traffic offences do not come under this and the employer has no responsibility (unless the vehicle supplied is duff or specific instructions are given that are wrong).  
 

However if damage to person property etc is caused then the employer is liable if they own/ lease the vehicle.
 

In this case it could be that damage is the employers responsibility (presumably under their insurance policy) but the road traffic offence if applicable is the employees responsibility.

 

Blackrose made no differentiation and appeared to suggest that the road traffic offence would be the employers responsibility which it wouldn’t be. Hence the rubbish claim.