CCing on the river Severn

[Lewisdb]

Hello and thanks in advance for any help. 

 

I'm thinking of spending 12 months on a wide beam CCing on the Gloucester Sharpness and River Severn. As you can imagine this would involve spending a fair bit of time in marinas while on the Severn. So I'm curious how the CRT view time in a marina? Eg. Does time in a marina count as a normal stop, am I limited to 14 days etc and the general impact of spending time at a marina while staying within the CCing criteria? 

 

Thanks again. 

[ditchcrawler]

You will be very lucky to find many places on the Severn where you can moor for 14 days, I wouldn't want to be there now. Yes if you go into a marina you can stay there as long as you like.

[Lewisdb]

6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

You will be very lucky to find many places on the Severn where you can moor for 14 days, I wouldn't want to be there now. Yes if you go into a marina you can stay there as long as you like.

Thanks, flooding is one of the reasons I'd be relying on marinas. Does it still count as a journey for the purpose of satisfying the CC guidelines? 

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Lewisdb said:

Hello and thanks in advance for any help. 

 

I'm thinking of spending 12 months on a wide beam CCing on the Gloucester Sharpness and River Severn. As you can imagine this would involve spending a fair bit of time in marinas while on the Severn. So I'm curious how the CRT view time in a marina? Eg. Does time in a marina count as a normal stop, am I limited to 14 days etc and the general impact of spending time at a marina while staying within the CCing criteria? 

 

Thanks again. 

 

 

You may find the Ombudsmans report interesting :

 

 

 

Case No 966 – complaint about the issue of a restricted six month licence for a boat without a home mooring

Mr and Mrs D are liveaboard boaters, based in Gloucester on the Gloucester and Sharpness Canal (G&S). As they do not have a home mooring they are subject to the Trust’s continuous cruising requirements. The Trust was not satisfied with the boat’s cruising pattern and decided only to allow them, on renewal of the licence, to have a restricted six month licence. In making their complaint, Mr and Mrs D said that the Trust restriction did not take into account the fact that the G&S is only 16 miles long, and that to cruise further meant taking their boat onto the River Severn, which they regarded as potentially hazardous. They also said that the Trust had not provided a full explanation for the restriction, that there was no clear guidance about what a “neighbourhood” or “locality” was, that the tone of the Trust’s correspondence was threatening, and that they were being discriminated against due to their age (i.e. that they are still working and that it is difficult to get the time to cruise further afield).

The Trust’s evidence showed that the majority of the cruising had been within a 15 km range, although there were two periods when the boat was sighted outside this range, which were at the end of April 2016 and in the middle of June 2016. The Trust said that the 15km cruising range did not meet the requirement at the time which was that the cruising range should be not less than 15-20km over the period of the licence. While it accepted that there two periods when this range was exceeded, it did not meet the requirement that the stated range should be met or exceeded “over the period of the licence”.

As to whether allowances should be made for boaters on the G&S because of the geographic limitations, the Trust said that while it did accept that there were some difficulties in cruising away from the canal, it did not accept that the difficulties were of such a nature that it was prepared to reduce the maximum cruising range. That is a policy matter for the Trust which I cannot influence.

The Trust’s key point was that no matter how frequently a boat moved, it could not remain on the G&S for the licence period and be compliant. It said that compliance could be achieved only if the boat left the G&S. It added that in this case the time spent away from the G&S was not sufficient to achieve compliance.

I concluded that the Trust did recognise the difficulties of navigating beyond the extremes of the canal, in particular at the southern end, where exit into the Severn estuary would require a pilot. However, while it also accepted that a northbound exit might be difficult in certain conditions, it did not accept that navigation up the River Severn was not possible.

I was satisfied that the Trust had, either before or during the complaint process, provided an explanation of why the complainants had been issued with a restricted licence, and also what a neighbourhood or locality was.

On the issue of whether the Trust had discriminated against the complainants because of their age, and the fact that they work, I did not conclude that it had. Under the Equality Act 2010 age is a protected characteristic. However, I could not see that the Trust could be regarded as having discriminated against the complainants on the basis of their age. The complainants said that the discrimination was based on the fact that they still worked, but being employed is not a protected characteristic. I said that given that the Equality Act prohibited discrimination on the basis of age (apart from any exceptions which must be justified) there could be no link between age and being employed, adding that a person above the state pension age, for example, but still in employment, could equally make the same argument.

Having considered all aspects of the complaint, I did not uphold it. The complainants said that they had a widebeam boat and that it was difficult to find permanent moorings, but I could not regard that as a reason for the Trust to disapply its continuous cruising guidance.

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You may find the Ombudsmans report interesting :

 

 

 

Case No 966 – complaint about the issue of a restricted six month licence for a boat without a home mooring

Mr and Mrs D are liveaboard boaters, based in Gloucester on the Gloucester and Sharpness Canal (G&S). As they do not have a home mooring they are subject to the Trust’s continuous cruising requirements. The Trust was not satisfied with the boat’s cruising pattern and decided only to allow them, on renewal of the licence, to have a restricted six month licence. In making their complaint, Mr and Mrs D said that the Trust restriction did not take into account the fact that the G&S is only 16 miles long, and that to cruise further meant taking their boat onto the River Severn, which they regarded as potentially hazardous. They also said that the Trust had not provided a full explanation for the restriction, that there was no clear guidance about what a “neighbourhood” or “locality” was, that the tone of the Trust’s correspondence was threatening, and that they were being discriminated against due to their age (i.e. that they are still working and that it is difficult to get the time to cruise further afield).

The Trust’s evidence showed that the majority of the cruising had been within a 15 km range, although there were two periods when the boat was sighted outside this range, which were at the end of April 2016 and in the middle of June 2016. The Trust said that the 15km cruising range did not meet the requirement at the time which was that the cruising range should be not less than 15-20km over the period of the licence. While it accepted that there two periods when this range was exceeded, it did not meet the requirement that the stated range should be met or exceeded “over the period of the licence”.

As to whether allowances should be made for boaters on the G&S because of the geographic limitations, the Trust said that while it did accept that there were some difficulties in cruising away from the canal, it did not accept that the difficulties were of such a nature that it was prepared to reduce the maximum cruising range. That is a policy matter for the Trust which I cannot influence.

The Trust’s key point was that no matter how frequently a boat moved, it could not remain on the G&S for the licence period and be compliant. It said that compliance could be achieved only if the boat left the G&S. It added that in this case the time spent away from the G&S was not sufficient to achieve compliance.

I concluded that the Trust did recognise the difficulties of navigating beyond the extremes of the canal, in particular at the southern end, where exit into the Severn estuary would require a pilot. However, while it also accepted that a northbound exit might be difficult in certain conditions, it did not accept that navigation up the River Severn was not possible.

I was satisfied that the Trust had, either before or during the complaint process, provided an explanation of why the complainants had been issued with a restricted licence, and also what a neighbourhood or locality was.

On the issue of whether the Trust had discriminated against the complainants because of their age, and the fact that they work, I did not conclude that it had. Under the Equality Act 2010 age is a protected characteristic. However, I could not see that the Trust could be regarded as having discriminated against the complainants on the basis of their age. The complainants said that the discrimination was based on the fact that they still worked, but being employed is not a protected characteristic. I said that given that the Equality Act prohibited discrimination on the basis of age (apart from any exceptions which must be justified) there could be no link between age and being employed, adding that a person above the state pension age, for example, but still in employment, could equally make the same argument.

Having considered all aspects of the complaint, I did not uphold it. The complainants said that they had a widebeam boat and that it was difficult to find permanent moorings, but I could not regard that as a reason for the Trust to disapply its continuous cruising guidance.

But surly they didn't go into a marina but just stayed on the G&S

[Lewisdb]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You may find the Ombudsmans report interesting :

 

 

 

Case No 966 – complaint about the issue of a restricted six month licence for a boat without a home mooring

Mr and Mrs D are liveaboard boaters, based in Gloucester on the Gloucester and Sharpness Canal (G&S). As they do not have a home mooring they are subject to the Trust’s continuous cruising requirements. The Trust was not satisfied with the boat’s cruising pattern and decided only to allow them, on renewal of the licence, to have a restricted six month licence. In making their complaint, Mr and Mrs D said that the Trust restriction did not take into account the fact that the G&S is only 16 miles long, and that to cruise further meant taking their boat onto the River Severn, which they regarded as potentially hazardous. They also said that the Trust had not provided a full explanation for the restriction, that there was no clear guidance about what a “neighbourhood” or “locality” was, that the tone of the Trust’s correspondence was threatening, and that they were being discriminated against due to their age (i.e. that they are still working and that it is difficult to get the time to cruise further afield).

The Trust’s evidence showed that the majority of the cruising had been within a 15 km range, although there were two periods when the boat was sighted outside this range, which were at the end of April 2016 and in the middle of June 2016. The Trust said that the 15km cruising range did not meet the requirement at the time which was that the cruising range should be not less than 15-20km over the period of the licence. While it accepted that there two periods when this range was exceeded, it did not meet the requirement that the stated range should be met or exceeded “over the period of the licence”.

As to whether allowances should be made for boaters on the G&S because of the geographic limitations, the Trust said that while it did accept that there were some difficulties in cruising away from the canal, it did not accept that the difficulties were of such a nature that it was prepared to reduce the maximum cruising range. That is a policy matter for the Trust which I cannot influence.

The Trust’s key point was that no matter how frequently a boat moved, it could not remain on the G&S for the licence period and be compliant. It said that compliance could be achieved only if the boat left the G&S. It added that in this case the time spent away from the G&S was not sufficient to achieve compliance.

I concluded that the Trust did recognise the difficulties of navigating beyond the extremes of the canal, in particular at the southern end, where exit into the Severn estuary would require a pilot. However, while it also accepted that a northbound exit might be difficult in certain conditions, it did not accept that navigation up the River Severn was not possible.

I was satisfied that the Trust had, either before or during the complaint process, provided an explanation of why the complainants had been issued with a restricted licence, and also what a neighbourhood or locality was.

On the issue of whether the Trust had discriminated against the complainants because of their age, and the fact that they work, I did not conclude that it had. Under the Equality Act 2010 age is a protected characteristic. However, I could not see that the Trust could be regarded as having discriminated against the complainants on the basis of their age. The complainants said that the discrimination was based on the fact that they still worked, but being employed is not a protected characteristic. I said that given that the Equality Act prohibited discrimination on the basis of age (apart from any exceptions which must be justified) there could be no link between age and being employed, adding that a person above the state pension age, for example, but still in employment, could equally make the same argument.

Having considered all aspects of the complaint, I did not uphold it. The complainants said that they had a widebeam boat and that it was difficult to find permanent moorings, but I could not regard that as a reason for the Trust to disapply its continuous cruising guidance.

Thanks for that. I'd be wanting to spend as much time as possible on the Severn but it floods for fun and has very few other morning options. As long as my stays in marinas are counted, and can stay in them for longer than 14 days (essential when flooding) I'm confident of meeting the other requirements. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Lewisdb said:

Thanks for that. I'd be wanting to spend as much time as possible on the Severn but it floods for fun and has very few other morning options. As long as my stays in marinas are counted, and can stay in them for longer than 14 days (essential when flooding) I'm confident of meeting the other requirements. 

 

I'd guess that as long as you pay the licence + wide beam surcharge + CCing surcharge C&RT would be happy for you to 'pay & stay' in marinas as long as you like.

Marinas will be happy to have you paying their £30 (ish) per night so everyone is happy.

 

The problems will start if the River moves into flood and the marina(s) are full - where will you go ?

 

Personally I'd rather go for a 'paid for mooring' (home mooring) save paying the CCing surcharge and go out for as long as you like, when you like, and return when conditions get awkward (most of the Winter ?)

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'd guess that as long as you pay the licence + wide beam surcharge + CCing surcharge C&RT would be happy for you to 'pay & stay' in marinas as long as you like.

Marinas will be happy to have you paying their £30 (ish) per night so everyone is happy.

 

The problems will start if the River moves into flood and the marina(s) are full - where will you go ?

 

Personally I'd rather go for a 'paid for mooring' (home mooring) save paying the CCing surcharge and go out for as long as you like, when you like, and return when conditions get awkward (most of the Winter ?)

Or CC on the G&S and then go up river in the summer months 

[Mikexx]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'd guess that as long as you pay the licence + wide beam surcharge + CCing surcharge C&RT would be happy for you to 'pay & stay' in marinas as long as you like.

Marinas will be happy to have you paying their £30 (ish) per night so everyone is happy.

 

The problems will start if the River moves into flood and the marina(s) are full - where will you go ?

 

Personally I'd rather go for a 'paid for mooring' (home mooring) save paying the CCing surcharge and go out for as long as you like, when you like, and return when conditions get awkward (most of the Winter ?)

 

What are the rules about having a home mooring?

 

I was under the impression that once you had a home mooring the 14 day limit applied to CCers staying in one place was no longer a 'limit'?

 

BICBW

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

 

What are the rules about having a home mooring?

 

I was under the impression that once you had a home mooring the 14 day limit applied to CCers staying in one place was no longer a 'limit'?

 

BICBW

 

It is 'different'

A ccer must move into a new 'place' (village / parish / county etc) whilst a boat with a home mooing can just move sufficently to be seen to be in a new 'place' (a place being a boat sized/shaped space).

 

A Judge said that it was very difficult when the legislation had two meanings of place in the same paragraph / sub-section.

 

A Judge also stated that a boat with a home mooring never had to use it, and they could simply shuffle about (A-B-A-B......) and under the existing laws C&RT could do nothing about it

Edited Tuesday at 16:48 by Alan de Enfield

[dmr]

31 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

 

What are the rules about having a home mooring?

 

I was under the impression that once you had a home mooring the 14 day limit applied to CCers staying in one place was no longer a 'limit'?

 

BICBW

 

This is a very grey area as the waterways act was not well written. A CC'er is entitled to stay for up to 14 days (or longer if reasonable) whilst a home moorer does not have that permission so things are undefined.  If you squat a valuable river mooring you will be very unpopular and possibly a danger so CRT will ultimately have to take some action even though they might prefer not to. My guess is that they will do you for causing an obstruction. Do you want to be the test case?

[Mikexx]

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A Judge also stated that a boat with a home mooring never had to use it, and they could simply shuffle about (A-B-A-B......) and under the existing laws C&RT could do nothing about it

 

That is nominally what I though. Does anyone know of a very cheap mooring? Can be anywhere of course.

 

How many boats can then use the same 'home mooring' spot if they never actually use the 'home mooring'?

[Rob-M]

Just now, Mikexx said:

Can be anywhere of cours

Would need to be suitable for your boat and reachable.

[LadyG]

You never have to move your boat if conditions make it dangerous, in that case, if you are on Day15 you ring up and ask for an overstay citing weather / floods / red boards.

As for starting off with the attitude that you want to ignore the Navigation guidelines, well i dont think thats a good idea, your records are there for the licencing officer to peruse over years.

Best to keep below the radar imho. 

Edited Tuesday at 17:15 by LadyG

[Rob-M]

 

Quite a challenge to get a wide beam up north to a cheap mooring from the G&S unless you have a crane and a lorry so difficult to say you have a home mooring if you can't boat to it.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

How many boats can then use the same 'home mooring' spot if they never actually use the 'home mooring'?

 

One.

 

When you claim a home mooring C&RT check to see if it actually exists, that it is on their list of moorings and that no one else is also claiming it.

 

Incompetent they may be, but stupid they aint !

[Lewisdb]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Or CC on the G&S and then go up river in the summer months 

That would be the plan ideally 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Lewisdb said:

That would be the plan ideally 

 

That was what caused the boaters licence to be withdrawn and the involvement of the Ombudsman

 

You must CC (not just 'single figures') continuously, 'ccing' on the River for (say) 6 months in Summer, and then CCIng  for (say) 6 months, on the G&S is not complying.

 

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The Trust said that the 15km cruising range did not meet the requirement at the time*which was that the cruising range should be not less than 15-20km over the period of the licence. While it accepted that there two periods when this range was exceeded, it did not meet the requirement that the stated range should be met or exceeded “over the period of the licence”.

 

NOT, 50% of the period of the licence.

 

** C&RTs current statement is that anything under a range of 20Km for the period of the licence is unlikely to be acceptable.

(This is very different to saying that 20km is acceptable.)

[ditchcrawler]

There are several wide beams on the GS who CC and spend a few weeks out on the river to keep CRT happy. I think the case you sited they didn't want to do the river.

 

[Rob-M]

When we moored at Saul Junction there seemed to be a crack down on CCers on the G&S.  Quite a few moved in to the marina or got online moorings and others disappeared off the G&S.

[Stroudwater1]

There’s little mooring or marinas on the Severn, I can only think of Stourport and Upton Marina, and a tiny chance at Kempsey possibly Hawford and a small chance of mooring at Diglis basin in Worcester. 

 

 The Severn is a very dull river to cruise on from Worcester down with high banks and not a lot else to see. I’m not sure if you can get up The Avon as Tewkesbury marina is another possibility. 
 

Overall the G&S is a better bet but moorings are at a premium now as there’s a lot of widebeam demand now. 
 

 

[LadyG]

Looking at the judgement, the distances are given in Km not miles, indicates the CRT require a cruising range of only 15 to 20 Km, this is surely wrong it should be 20 miles, no less. No one could possibly cc 20m on this canal alone.

As for work stopping them fulfilling the rules which they agreed when they bought a licence, that just annoys me, I hope  they had to pay CRT expenses for this mischievous case.

 

The complaint seems to be that they are only issued a six month licence and in that time they must travel in accordance with the  mileage determined by the CRT. If they cant do this, tough. Don't buy a licence, don't buy a boat. 

People don't seem to understand that they don't have some sort of "right", it's up to the Navigation Authority to decide if the boats need to be licenced, and what the requirements are, and boaters who think they are entitled to do what they want without taking in to consideration the other boaters are going to end up being very unpopular. Some boaters are quite officious, DAMHIK  😀

Edited Tuesday at 20:55 by LadyG

[PeterF]

I expect most of the visitor moorings on the Severn or in the basins just off the Severn are only 2 days at most so that means regular cruising required.

[LadyG]

10 hours ago, PeterF said:

I expect most of the visitor moorings on the Severn or in the basins just off the Severn are only 2 days at most so that means regular cruising required.

That might interfere with their "human rights", the right to work! 

Fortunately OP seem to be quite au fait with the requirements, and presumably has done the budget.. The upfront costs seem so much cheaper than bricks and mortar, but its a very different "business model".

Edited yesterday at 07:53 by LadyG

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Mikexx said:

I was under the impression that once you had a home mooring the 14 day limit applied to CCers staying in one place was no longer a 'limit'?

Under the 95 Act the 14 days only applies to CCers. But a similar limit is included in CRT's standard Terms and  Conditions which you accept when applying for a licence. The barrack room lawyers will say that CRT don't have the legal power to insist on this and therefore it can be ignored. But do you want the hassle, cost and risk of being a test case?

 

Also worth noting that on the River Severn (but not the G&S) CRT are the navigation authority, but not the landowner. Mooring to the banks ìs therefore a matter between you and the riparian landowner only (except in lock cuts and similar areas). So I think in practice the 14 day limit will not be enforced at such moorings in the same way as it would be for towpath mooring.

Edited Tuesday at 21:11 by David Mack