CCing on the river Severn

[Arthur Marshall]

4 hours ago, Mikexx said:

 

That is nominally what I though. Does anyone know of a very cheap mooring? Can be anywhere of course.

 

How many boats can then use the same 'home mooring' spot if they never actually use the 'home mooring'?

Doesn't work like that. The judge Alan keeps quoting (along with everyone who wants to avoid paying their way) was talking obvious nonsense, and his ruling is not binding and sets no precedent. It's also worth bearing mind the idiot boater he was talking about lost his boat.

It's all very well trying to be cute, but it can turn out a bit expensive.

Oh, and  CRT have it written into licence T&Cs that the CC rules apply to home moorers when they are off their mooring, so good luck with that one. Take them to court if you like...

Edited October 1 by Arthur Marshall
crossed with David's post above.

[Mikexx]

4 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Doesn't work like that. The judge Alan keeps quoting (along with everyone who wants to avoid paying their way) was talking obvious nonsense, and his ruling is not binding and sets no precedent. It's also worth bearing mind the idiot boater he was talking about lost his boat.

It's all very well trying to be cute, but it can turn out a bit expensive.

Oh, and  CRT have it written into licence T&Cs that the CC rules apply to home moorers when they are off their mooring, so good luck with that one. Take them to court if you like...

 

I really have no intention to create any waves with CaRT and the judiciary.

 

It was more the interest angle, especially as there's now a CCer tax.

[LadyG]

4 hours ago, dmr said:

 

This is a very grey area as the waterways act was not well written. A CC'er is entitled to stay for up to 14 days (or longer if reasonable) whilst a home moorer does not have that permission so things are undefined.  If you squat a valuable river mooring you will be very unpopular and possibly a danger so CRT will ultimately have to take some action even though they might prefer not to. My guess is that they will do you for causing an obstruction. Do you want to be the test case?

The spotters who note where you are, probably every week just put your location on the database, I doubt it could be sophisticated enough to deal with cc  v home moorings, though it must deal with marina location, as you get a "bye" for that mooring. Essentially if you are on your home mooring or a marina you should not get an overstay. If you are on the towpath,  I think you are expected to move every 14 days, regardless.

[MtB]

51 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

It was more the interest angle, especially as there's now a CCer tax.

 

I see it as a home moorer discount. 

[Mikexx]

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I see it as a home moorer discount. 

 

Isn't that like a subsidy?

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

 

Isn't that like a subsidy?

 

 

The same as the discount for a Butty, for a vintage boat, for an electric boat, for paying early etc etc are all 'subsidies' ??

[MtB]

58 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

 

Isn't that like a subsidy?

 

Hardly, as home moorers already pay CRT a ton of money more than CMers.

[Mikexx]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Hardly, as home moorers already pay CRT a ton of money more than CMers.

 

Yes, but not to CaRT; or any other charity.

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The same as the discount for a Butty, for a vintage boat, for an electric boat, for paying early etc etc are all 'subsidies' ??

 

Quite possibly. You bite too easily!

[Arthur Marshall]

6 hours ago, Mikexx said:

 

Yes, but not to CaRT; or any other charity.

 

 

Yes we do. My mooring fee (not the rent for the mooring) to crt is almost as much as my licence. You really need to do your homework.

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Mikexx said:

Yes, but not to CaRT; or any other charity.

 

I don't understand what you mean. CRT collect (approx) £5,000 a year directly from me in licence and mooring fees, by direct debit so it definitely goes to CRT.

 

 

 

Edited October 2 by MtB
Finesse the point.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 hours ago, Mikexx said:

Yes, but not to CaRT; or any other charity.

 

C&RT also take 9% of the mooring fees paid by boaters to (most) private marinas as a 'tax' for being allowed to use the water.

[LadyG]

CRT is not a charity in the common usage of the world, it is a Charitable Organisation , has to run as a business in most respects.and was set up when the UK Govt wanted to divest itself of financial burden. The handover included some nonsense about funding by well heeled folks who would want to contribute to the infrastructure in which they formerly had no particular interest.

 

Edited October 2 by LadyG

[IanD]

57 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

C&RT also take 9% of the mooring fees paid by boaters to (most) private marinas as a 'tax' for being allowed to use the water.

 

Which on average is more than the CC surcharge.

 

Boaters like MtB who have EOG or farm or CART-owned moorings (e.g. online) pay much more, obviously.

 

So even with the surcharge, CCers contribute considerably less to CART income -- which maintains the canals, albeit pretty badly right now -- than HMers.

Edited October 2 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

So even with the surcharge, CCers contribute considerably less to CART income -- which maintains the canals, albeit pretty badly right now -- than HMers.

 

 

I just posted this in another thread,

Having been unable to raise the 'charitable funds' budgeted for (even tho' KPMG reduced them by 20% to allow a contingency) meant that the maintenance spend could never be achieved,

 

 

Before the transfer KPMG were commisioned by HMG to assess and comment on the business plans produced by C&RT and the viability of C&RT as a stand-alone business.

 

It is interesting to note that BW only ever achieved an annual maintenance rate of 82% of that require to maintain 'the steady state' of the infrastructure - C&RTs plan was to improve this to 94% of the required spend.

They were planning on a continued slow demise / closure of the system from 2012 onwards.

 

 

 

C&RTs plans basically boiled down to :

 

 

 

[IanD]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I just posted this in another thread,

Having been unable to raise the 'charitable funds' budgeted for (even tho' KPMG reduced them by 20% to allow a contingency) meant that the maintenance spend could never be achieved,

 

Before the transfer KPMG were commisioned by HMG to assess and comment on the business plans produced by C&RT and the viability of C&RT as a stand-alone business.

 

It is interesting to note that BW only ever achieved an annual maintenance rate of 82% of that require to maintain 'the steady state' of the infrastructure - C&RTs plan was to improve this to 94% of the required spend.

They were planning on a continued slow demise / closure of the system from 2012 onwards.

 

C&RTs plans basically boiled down to :

 

 

Slow decline yes, as you say the plan was still only to have 94% of the required spend to maintain the "steady state".

 

Closure/demise no, AFAIK there were (and are) no plans for this -- though if the decline in funding and condition continues there may be no other alternative to some closures in the long term, even though it's difficult to see which canals could be closed where this would save enough money to make any real difference...

Edited October 2 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

I wonder if the CRT checkers do the Severn? there is no towpath to cycle up and most of the moorings other than at locks are not owned by them

[Mikexx]

9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I wonder if the CRT checkers do the Severn? there is no towpath to cycle up and most of the moorings other than at locks are not owned by them

 

For my last extended weekend trip on the Severn a year or so ago I can confirm that no records were kept, even from going through the manned locks. I was advised to take photos if I ever need to provide evidence of where I had been.

 

I had previously thought the manned lock operators kept records?

[BCN Challenge]

For a widebeam on the G&S and Severn the maximum possible range is Stourport to Sharpness.

 

That’s about three days cruising so it would seem reasonable that a boater without a home mooring should cover that entire distance during the validity of their licence.

 

As others have rightly said it is on the licence holder to satisfy CRT that they have navigated sufficient distance so I would recommend recording evidence that you have been to both Sharpness and Stourport.

 

Also bear in mind that unless you have a really big boat you will have access to moorings in Stourport and Diglis basins as safe havens from the river. In theory you can also make it to within walking distance of Droitwich town centre.

 

You’ve had an answer to the main question about the 14 day rule but a key point about using a series of short term paid moorings - which is what I do - is that it makes no difference to the range you are expected to cover during the licence period.

Edited October 2 by BCN Challenge

[Richard Fairhurst]

On 02/10/2024 at 18:02, Mikexx said:

For my last extended weekend trip on the Severn a year or so ago I can confirm that no records were kept, even from going through the manned locks. I was advised to take photos if I ever need to provide evidence of where I had been.

 

I had previously thought the manned lock operators kept records?

They do - you'll almost always see them looking down to take your number (or using a mirror). We usually shout ours up to save them the hassle. Genuinely surprised if they didn't on your visit!

[Ken X]

19 minutes ago, Richard Fairhurst said:

They do - you'll almost always see them looking down to take your number (or using a mirror). We usually shout ours up to save them the hassle. Genuinely surprised if they didn't on your visit!

When we came up Diglis lock in July we were asked for our registration number.

Being a hire boat we had no idea what or where it was. Finally located it on the opposite side to the lock side. Reading it involved lying on the roof shouting out the numbers, hoping I didn't get it wrong as I was reading right to left and inverted. 😆

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Richard Fairhurst said:

They do - you'll almost always see them looking down to take your number (or using a mirror). We usually shout ours up to save them the hassle. Genuinely surprised if they didn't on your visit!

But they don't seam to go onto your movement sighting records 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But they don't seam to go onto your movement sighting records 

 

They don't. 

I once asked the keeper at our local manned lock, and he explained that it was a totally non-standard, & non-integrated syatem purely for lock / tunnel movements.

 

Some time ago a friend was accused of not moving enough and threatened with having their licence revoked, they explained that they had travelled 100s of miles but it did not show on their movements records.

 

The 'local lockie' said he was quite prepared to produce a print-out / list of all of their boats movements thru his lock (as would the others ahead / behind him) but C&RT refused to accept these as these "could have been falsified".

 

In the end C&RT backed down and the threat went away.

[Bee]

Personally i would find out what fees Sharpness marina charge, The Severn is not a particularly interesting waterway (in my opinion anyway) but the Gloucester and Sharpness is. Might not be a bad place to CC from. The flooding aspect of the Severn is a real fear.