Interested minds ... (boat electrical systems, the 'Big picture').

[T_i_m]

Just now, dmr said:

In the place I used to work (years ago) I found a copy of a very early RadioSpares catalog, sadly I decided not to keep it.

 

The RS sales reps used to get a bit upset if you called them the "man from RadioSpares"

😉

 

If I remember rightly the catalogue pages were very thin?

[dmr]

14 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

😉

 

If I remember rightly the catalogue pages were very thin?

I remember a very thin catalogue held together with a couple of staples, a brown cover, but can't recall the paper quality.

The RS catalog got bigger and bigger every year, they grew at an impressive rate.

[T_i_m]

 

Carrying on learning about my friends Nb ... how do you 'pump' the main bilge and do you?

 

It was thinking of the water pump leak got me asking where that water ended up and if it was pumped out and I was led to believe is (in this case) it isn't pumped out?

 

So if you (he) dropped a water container that split and went though the floor ... or a hidden pipe leaked, how would you normally get the water out?

 

I would imagine there would be either an access to the main bilge somewhere when you could drop down a manual or electric / submersible pump or something built in?

[GUMPY]

19 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

 

So if you (he) dropped a water container that split and went though the floor ... or a hidden pipe leaked, how would you normally get the water out?

 

I would imagine there would be either an access to the main bilge somewhere when you could drop down a manual or electric / submersible pump or something built in?

 

There have been no bilge pumps under the main floor if my last 3 boats. There have however been hatches just in front of the rear accomodation bulkhead. I use an Aquavac to remove any water that might be there. 

The first boat suffered from condensation under the tug deck which meant regular use of the vac

The second was dry

The last one when I bought it had 3 inches of water in the bilge I cut the access hatch and many vac fulls later it was dry and remained so for 10 years till I sold it.

Neither the surveyor or I noticed the water in the bilge as there was no access. However after a 100 mile road trip on delivery I noticed a damp patch on a wall opposite side  to the plumbing which slightly rang alarm bells. 

 

 

 

Edited September 30 by GUMPY
Detail

[nicknorman]

Most modern narrowboats have a “dry” cabin bilge. So if the bilge is dry, you don’t need to pump it out. In theory! But as you suggest, plumbing leaks and more likely window leaks or condensation can result in water in the cabin bilge. Narrowboats are ballasted such that the baseplate is lower at the back, and so any such spillage eventually runs to the back. So it is a good idea to have some sort of inspection hatch in the floor at the back of the cabin bilge. Normally it should be dry but if it isn’t, either a portable pump or just a sponge can be used to extract excess water. The cabin bilge is ventilated so any slight dampness should evaporate in time.

Edited September 30 by nicknorman

[T_i_m]

Thanks guys.

 

So, basically, small quantities of water in the main bilge should evaporate via it's ventilation but larger quanties can be pumped out, if you have (or make) access.

 

If that bilge is ventilated (outside of the main cabin) then there shouldn't be any increased humidity because of it in the main cabin should there?

 

I think my friend suggested he'd 'have to cut a hole in the floor' to be able to access that bilge and if it were me, I'd think I would have to! 😉

[nicknorman]

On our boat the bilge is externally ventilated, not sure if that is standard. But you can still get condensation because the bilge floor and sides is at canal temperature which might be cold, whilst the air coming in via the ventilation might be warm and humid. But overall long term it should be pretty dry.

 

Yes I would cut a hole at the back if there isn’t one already. Preferably in the floor of a cupboard etc. A friend of mine didn’t have an access hole, they had a slow water leak from the tank at the front, which ran back and gradually rose over probably several years to saturate and rot the flooring joists and boards before any problem became apparent via damp carpet. The wood was totally rotten by then and it was an expensive refit for the rear several feet of the floor area.

Edited September 30 by nicknorman

[T_i_m]

3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

On our boat the bilge is externally ventilated, not sure if that is standard. But you can still get condensation because the bilge floor and sides is at canal temperature which might be cold, whilst the air coming in via the ventilation might be warm and humid. But overall long term it should be pretty dry.

 

Yes I would cut a hole at the back if there isn’t one already. Preferably in the floor of a cupboard etc. A friend of mine didn’t have an access hole, they had a slow water leak from the tank at the front, which ran back and gradually rose over probably several years to saturate and rot the flooring joists and boards before any problem became apparent via damp carpet. The wood was totally rotten by then and it was an expensive refit for the rear several feet of the floor area.

Thanks Nick, again, it was the 'discomfort of assumption' that prompted me to ask him and now you guys and I'm glad I did.

 

I am very much one of those who does try to consider all the options, the 'what if' etc and the idea of a ruined floor structure would be right up there.

 

We have just bought a s/h, 20 yr old Vauxhall Corsa 'C' and they are known to suffer a water leak on the bulkhead that not only ends up soaking the carpet and rotting the floor out. So we first took all the carpet (seats, panels, trim) out, then treated the leak, then put all the stuff so it could be used then all the carpets back a few weeks later. Luckily the floor hadn't suffered in the time it was wet so it was a job worth doing. 😉

[wakey_wake]

23 hours ago, T_i_m said:

And yes, it's like the old 'think thrice, measure twice, cut once adage', or making sure the car is in neutral before hitting the starter (or not having you face in front of the airbag when re-connecting the battery, as we just did after putting the dried carpets back in daughters Corsa).

One problem is it can degenerate into think twice, go have a cup of tea, forget what the second thought was... try again another day.

 

23 hours ago, T_i_m said:

(or not having you face in front of the airbag when re-connecting the battery, as we just did after putting the dried carpets back in daughters Corsa).

🥴💫 sounds scary dangerous. What triggered them?

[T_i_m]

2 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

One problem is it can degenerate into think twice, go have a cup of tea, forget what the second thought was... try again another day.

 

🥴💫 sounds scary dangerous. What triggered them?

Hehe, yes, along with walking into a room and having no idea why. ;-(

 

No, nothing was triggered, just remembering to make sure you do the right things so they aren't or if they might, that you don't have a laptop or spanner in front of your face when you power up. 😉

[T_i_m]

FWIW, I've just picked up a Epever Tracer 4210AN and the later version of my mates box (blue buttons so -Ve common versus his orange buttons and +Ve common)  and after a lot of faffing about trying to change serial port settings (RS-485 checkbox on the Serial port), got it working with the 'Solar Station Monitor' app on W11. 😉

 

I only have it on a small LA battery for now for testing but it seems to be showing the right things. 😉

 

It looks like you can also update the firmware on these things but they don't seem to make the files generally available?

 

Also, when I check the info on mine it says it's a TriRon 4210?

 

 

 

[T_i_m]

Can't sleep so just thinking out loud ... on solar energy ... I think I understand that the viability of solar energy in the UK is not as optimal as in many other countries, especially if you are using it for heating over air-conditioning but at our latitude and even in the South of England it seems to get the best out of your solar panels when you might need it most (in the winter, longer night for lights etc), their typical horizontal mounting as seen on most Nb's is the worst? ;-(

 

I appreciate it's mostly down to practical considerations, not easy to position multiple panels (nearly) vertically, especially when moored N/S (where any more than one would be in their own shade) but for me, putting one vertically on the South side of a shed may be good, at least offering the best output in the winter.

 

Also, can I qualify that wiring solar panels in parallel makes them more immune to shadows, like you might get if moored near trees when if the panels were in series, one panel in the shade would impact the whole array?

 

On the Eperver Tracer series of Solar Controllers, I think I read somewhere that they may run in PWM mode until there is sufficient input energy, then they go into MTTP mode?

[T_i_m]

So, going back to the water pump sub topic ... I believe he had a general water pump (for the sink / toilet etc) that worked ok but wasn't really 'man enough' for the shower, so they upgraded it for something more powerful that didn't last for some reason. Someone swapped it out for them (for an identical pump) and whilst it worked fine functionally (decent shower etc), it ran on longer than the previous / smaller one (see our previous discussions on this) and has now been remove and seems to leaking because of corrosion and failed gaskets or some such.

 

It's a Jabsco model 82400-0392 that is 15l/m at a (max?) 25 PSI so I wondered that before a current replacement is ordered (~£200), are these what 'most people' use or is there something better  ... where 'better' in this case would probably equal 'reliable but cheaper' please?

[Rincewind]

22 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

It's a Jabsco model 82400-0392 that is 15l/m at a (max?) 25 PSI so I wondered that before a current replacement is ordered (~£200),

Seems a bit expensive!

Look Here:-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jabsco-31395-2512-3A-ParMax-3-Pump/dp/B08TJ2GNMT/ref=asc_df_B08TJ2GNMT/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=697183278645&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9856487878942242126&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006648&hvtargid=pla-1391444613807&psc=1&mcid=091ae9f36a3f3f5b8b860899f97e1886&gad_source=1

 

[T_i_m]

1 minute ago, Rincewind said:

Seems a bit expensive!

Look Here:-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jabsco-31395-2512-3A-ParMax-3-Pump/dp/B08TJ2GNMT/ref=asc_df_B08TJ2GNMT/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=697183278645&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9856487878942242126&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006648&hvtargid=pla-1391444613807&psc=1&mcid=091ae9f36a3f3f5b8b860899f97e1886&gad_source=1

 

Thanks for that.

 

According to the spec that one is 11 l/m v 15 l/m of what's in there now and it suggests it's a diaphragm over reciprocating multi-piston pump, FWIW?

 

Looking around it seems there are plenty of 'pumps' that might cover the needs, it's just do Jabsco have a reputation for being 'the dogs', especially the piston models possibly and so worth the money?

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, T_i_m said:

According to the spec that one is 11 l/m v 15 l/m of what's in there now and it suggests it's a diaphragm over reciprocating multi-piston pump, FWIW?

 

It depends on what you mean by a diaphragm pump. It is probably truer to say it is a diaphragmS pump. I think it is a multiple pumping chamber pump, with each chamber having its own diaphragm and set of valves. I have not seen any other type of domestic water pump for many years, although some people may use pumps intended for a different purpose as domestic water pumps.

[Eeyore]

2 hours ago, T_i_m said:

and has now been remove and seems to leaking because of corrosion and failed gaskets or some such.

The expensive pumps, with cast alloy or die cast parts, don't like most sterilising agents such as chlorine tablets or Miltons fluid. Does your friend regularly use that type of treatment for the water tank?

Guess how I found out ☹️ 

[T_i_m]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It depends on what you mean by a diaphragm pump. It is probably truer to say it is a diaphragmS pump. I think it is a multiple pumping chamber pump, with each chamber having its own diaphragm and set of valves. I have not seen any other type of domestic water pump for many years, although some people may use pumps intended for a different purpose as domestic water pumps.

I'm not sure what I mean in this case Tony as I'm only going by what he said ... and that was the existing pump had several small pistons in a circle being driven by a rotating eccentric plate or something? <shrug>

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, T_i_m said:

I'm not sure what I mean in this case Tony as I'm only going by what he said ... and that was the existing pump had several small pistons in a circle being driven by a rotating eccentric plate or something? <shrug>

 

 

 

I was just trying to ensure you knew it was not a single large diaphragm pump like a Whale Gulper. It works in the same way as you describe, but instead of pistons, there is a ring of "mini diaphragm pumps". Easy to misunderstand unless you have had one apart, especially if you have knowledge of hydraulic systems.

[T_i_m]

2 hours ago, Eeyore said:

The expensive pumps, with cast alloy or die cast parts, don't like most sterilising agents such as chlorine tablets or Miltons fluid. Does your friend regularly use that type of treatment for the water tank?

Guess how I found out ☹️ 

Oh dear.

 

Good point though and I'd have to say I don't know but will ask. All I know is that I believe the fwd tank has 'seen better days' and so is now only used for washing and washing up, with drinking water being brought on-board in large cube shape water bottles that can stand on the counter with a tap hanging over the side.

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I was just trying to ensure you knew it was not a single large diaphragm pump like a Whale Gulper. It works in the same way as you describe, but instead of pistons, there is a ring of "mini diaphragm pumps". Easy to misunderstand unless you have had one apart, especially if you have knowledge of hydraulic systems.

Understood and I'm not sure Tony. I'll try to get a picture of it if it's still in bits.

[T_i_m]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I was just trying to ensure you knew it was not a single large diaphragm pump like a Whale Gulper. It works in the same way as you describe, but instead of pistons, there is a ring of "mini diaphragm pumps". Easy to misunderstand unless you have had one apart, especially if you have knowledge of hydraulic systems.

Since watching some stripdown / repair videos of the pump on Youtube and I see what you mean and how it would look like hydraulic pump / motor construction.

 

So, it also seems you can get 'repair kits' for some of these pumps so I need to learn exactly why / where this one is leaking.

 

It also looks like water can get into the motor itself and the magnets can come loose from the motor body. ;-(

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, T_i_m said:

So, it also seems you can get 'repair kits' for some of these pumps so I need to learn exactly why / where this one is leaking.

 

From experience I would say just buy a new one

[T_i_m]

54 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

From experience I would say just buy a new one

Has anyone come across the 'Flojet' range of pumps and if so, what do you think?

[T_i_m]

9 hours ago, T_i_m said:

Has anyone come across the 'Flojet' range of pumps and if so, what do you think?

Is there such a thing as too much pressure with these domestic water pumps (within reason of course) and if so why please?

 

I ask because it seems there are more options if you are looking for a 12V, 15 l/m (min) pump in the 3 - 4 bar range (~ 40/60 psi) than to match the existing 25 PSI (~1.8 bar) offering?

 

I can't imagine the extra pressure would put most domestic plumbing or devices (head, sink taps or shower etc) at risk but maybe it could?

[Tony Brooks]

10 hours ago, T_i_m said:

Since watching some stripdown / repair videos of the pump on Youtube and I see what you mean and how it would look like hydraulic pump / motor construction.

 

So, it also seems you can get 'repair kits' for some of these pumps so I need to learn exactly why / where this one is leaking.

 

It also looks like water can get into the motor itself and the magnets can come loose from the motor body. ;-(

 

The last point. This is why best practice is to mount any motor driven water pump vertically, with the pump part below the motor.

 

As this is a liveaboard one common cause of these pumps leaking is less likely, that is water in the pump freezing and forcing the plastic parts apart.

 

Sometimes tightening the screws holding the pump body together a little cures the leak, BUT as the screws are just self tappers into the plastic body, it is all too easy to overtighten and strip the plastic body thread.

 

It is not unknown for the diaphragm that works the pressure switch to leak, but that comes from the end of the pump, not from the joint(s) between the main plastic pump body.

 

Yes, you can get overhaul kits, but experience suggests that even when you fit one, it is not always possible to rebuild with no leaks. I consider such water pumps as consumable items.  If tightening the screws does not work I would fit a new pump, and then by all means try fitting an overhaul kit, so if it does not leak the boater has a spare. I have a feeling the difference in price between the kit and a new pump is not very great.