Interested minds ... (boat electrical systems, the 'Big picture').

[Tony Brooks]

56 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

I'm not sure how that compares with Lithium but why would we want to compete with that (EV etc) market when the usage is (or could be) completely different?

 

 

Apart from a few cases I don't think the inland boating sector does compete with the EV market because the EV batteries, in the main, are of a very different and dangerous technology, all too ready to burst into an uncontrollable fire when damaged or abused. I think it does compete with domestic solar batteries for the home, but it all adds to the economies of scale.

 

If there were, magically, mooring provision for charging then perhaps the situation re LA batteries would change, but I don't think it would. Lithiums do not seem to suffer the problems of sulphation or comparatively short cyclic life that LA batteries do. Then who do you think will pay for the installation, because it is likely to require high current conductors to be laid, and so far that can not keep pace with the requirements for the EV market.

 

I also question the thought that the weight of LA batteries for an inland boat is not an issue, because unless they are evenly distributed across the whole boat there are likely to be trimming problems. There is also  a question of the bulk of LA batteries needed to give a decent range, especially on a narrowboat. Look at the size of the battery compartment on milk floats under the load space, then think where this volume could be accommodated on a narrowboat, especially shorter ones. About the only space that I can think of that does not impinge upon general storage is under the hull side of a fixed double bed. Even then, this space is often used to store items not needed regularly. It would also create a large list that would need a large volume of typical ballasts on the other side of the boat to level, more finding space problems.

1 hour ago, T_i_m said:

I'm not sure how that compares with Lithium but why would we want to compete with that (EV etc) market when the usage is (or could be) completely different?

 

 

Apart from a few cases I don't think the inland boating sector does compete with the EV market because the EV batteries, in the main, are of a very different and dangerous technology, all too ready to burst into an uncontrollable fire when damaged or abused. I think it does compete with domestic solar batteries for the home, but it all adds to the economies of scale.

 

If there were, magically, mooring provision for charging then perhaps the situation re LA batteries would change, but I don't think it would. Lithiums do not seem to suffer the problems of sulphation or comparatively short cyclic life that LA batteries do. Then who do you think will pay for the installation, because it is likely to require high current conductors to be laid, and so far that can not keep pace with the requirements for the EV market.

 

I also question the thought that the weight of LA batteries for an inland boat is not an issue, because unless they are evenly distributed across the whole boat there are likely to be trimming problems. There is also  a question of the bulk of LA batteries needed to give a decent range, especially on a narrowboat. Look at the size of the battery compartment on milk floats under the load space, then think where this volume could be accommodated on a narrowboat, especially shorter ones. About the only space that I can think of that does not impinge upon general storage is under the hull side of a fixed double bed. Even then, this space is often used to store items not needed regularly. It would also create a large list that would need a large volume of typical ballasts on the other side of the boat to level, more finding space problems.

[T_i_m]

10 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Couple of things, firstly LA batteries don’t like being left for long periods below 100% SoC

 

But the main point is energy efficiency. LA has a charge efficiency (charge as in the integral of current) of around 94% vs 99% for Li. But that is only part of the story. Because the voltage difference between charging and discharging is quite high for LA (say 14.4 and 12.5) vs Li (say 13.6 vs 13.2) the “voltage efficiency” is 86% vs 97%. So the energy or power efficiency, being the multiple of charge and voltage efficiency, is around 80% for LA and 96% for Li. So 16% of energy is wasted by using LA vs Li.

Understood and thanks Nick.

 

A couple of thoughts if I may. I believe I understood that LA like many other battery chemistries don't like being 'stored' (left between uses) at 100% state of charge and infact, we are supposed to ensure they are discharged to a much lower than 100% when they are being stored? Now I know that's no use if you need your batteries ready to rock at all times but I guess there must also be a 'cost' to keeping your batteries at 100%, if you aren't using them to full capacity regularly?

 

Secondly, we seem only to be considering efficiency here and certainly over pollution / sustainability. (Hypothetical hat on for a sec), if we were charging from a cheap / green source of energy and subject to the batteries being used in an 'appropriate' configuration / usage pattern', charging would be an issue and certainly not over the potential impact to the environment of using lithium (that I understand is a very finite resource) versus a very sustainable and highly recyclable technology like LA. You can even get (or could) get these bigger batteries re-plated so you don't even have to recycle the plastic case and I don't mean some Indian doing it and pouring molten lead whilst wearing flip flops, as seen on Youtube. 😉  However, that does highlight the sustainability of LA.

 

And then there is the cost. If you are going for my 'cruise for a week' capacity of battery, how much would the initial outlay be for Li (and all the associated charge control / BMS outlay, along with it's ongoing upkeep) over what would be required for LA?

 

Don't get me wrong, I have used (often hard as when racing, inc RC cars) several battery chemistry's over the years and appreciate all of them but I still think there is a place for LA and due to one of their major disadvantages, weight, when used in a boat originally designed to carry heavy loads, the use in a narrow isn't one of them. 😉

 

p.s. A couple of mates fancied racing RC electric cars recently and went out and spent ~grand each on the cars, LiPo batteries and chargers and AC motors and controllers etc. I dug out my car, NiMH batteries and clockwork charger and long short, they didn't last the evening and had to watch me in the final. 😉

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

A couple of thoughts if I may. I believe I understood that LA like many other battery chemistries don't like being 'stored' (left between uses) at 100% state of charge and infact, we are supposed to ensure they are discharged to a much lower than 100% when they are being stored? Now I know that's no use if you need your batteries ready to rock at all times but I guess there must also be a 'cost' to keeping your batteries at 100%, if you aren't using them to full capacity regularly?

 

I think that you believe wrong. If a LA battery is left in anything other than a fully charged state, then the lead sulphate left on the negative plates will gradually harden until it is so hard the voltage required to reconvert that sulphate will be so high it destroys the battery. I would suggest this the man mode of failure of LA batteries on inland boats.

 

There seems to be much confusion about batteries, their charging, and storage, with far too many people attributing the requirements of one battery chemistry to all the others. I think you may be attributing NiMH requirements to LA batteries, and may also be confusing the fact that most Lithium installations never or rarely fully charge the batteries because it is easy to damage them by over charging, nothing to do with storage.

 

12 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

A couple of mates fancied racing RC electric cars recently and went out and spent ~grand each on the cars, LiPo batteries and chargers and AC motors and controllers etc. I dug out my car, NiMH batteries and clockwork charger and long short, they didn't last the evening and had to watch me in the final. 😉

 

If your friends had chosen batteries using the same technology as that used in cars, then you may well have found they outlasted your battery. However, to have done so would have made the cars more dangerous - see electric scooter fires - which is why the manufacturers probably chose to use the safest lithium technology.

[IanD]

34 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Understood and thanks Nick.

 

A couple of thoughts if I may. I believe I understood that LA like many other battery chemistries don't like being 'stored' (left between uses) at 100% state of charge and infact, we are supposed to ensure they are discharged to a much lower than 100% when they are being stored? Now I know that's no use if you need your batteries ready to rock at all times but I guess there must also be a 'cost' to keeping your batteries at 100%, if you aren't using them to full capacity regularly?

 

Secondly, we seem only to be considering efficiency here and certainly over pollution / sustainability. (Hypothetical hat on for a sec), if we were charging from a cheap / green source of energy and subject to the batteries being used in an 'appropriate' configuration / usage pattern', charging would be an issue and certainly not over the potential impact to the environment of using lithium (that I understand is a very finite resource) versus a very sustainable and highly recyclable technology like LA. You can even get (or could) get these bigger batteries re-plated so you don't even have to recycle the plastic case and I don't mean some Indian doing it and pouring molten lead whilst wearing flip flops, as seen on Youtube. 😉  However, that does highlight the sustainability of LA.

 

And then there is the cost. If you are going for my 'cruise for a week' capacity of battery, how much would the initial outlay be for Li (and all the associated charge control / BMS outlay, along with it's ongoing upkeep) over what would be required for LA?

 

Don't get me wrong, I have used (often hard as when racing, inc RC cars) several battery chemistry's over the years and appreciate all of them but I still think there is a place for LA and due to one of their major disadvantages, weight, when used in a boat originally designed to carry heavy loads, the use in a narrow isn't one of them. 😉

 

p.s. A couple of mates fancied racing RC electric cars recently and went out and spent ~grand each on the cars, LiPo batteries and chargers and AC motors and controllers etc. I dug out my car, NiMH batteries and clockwork charger and long short, they didn't last the evening and had to watch me in the final. 😉

 

The weight isn't the biggest issue for narrowboats (but see later), all the other LA problems are... 😉 

 

Yes they're cheap to buy (though you need getting on for 2x the capacity than with LFP) but also have much shorter lifetime (20%?) than LFP, so the total cost per kWh throughput is now cheaper for LFP. Doesn't really matter if you don't use the boat much, then the upfront cost dominates.

 

LA are easier to recycle today because they've been in common use for more than a hundred years, recycling is coming for lithiums because of EVs. But since LA have typically a fifth of the life they need recycling 5x as often, which given the cost/losses of doing this means overall they're probably less "green" than LFP.

 

The biggest issue is that to get even this much lifetime out of LA you need to treat them properly, which means regular charging all the way to 100% SoC to prevent sulphation -- and getting there takes many hours as the charging rate gets slower and slower, not popular if you're doing this by running a generator.

 

If you want a weight example, my 35kWh (48V 700Ah) LFP battery bank weighs about 350kg. To get the same *usable* capacity out of LA -- including SoC limitations and loss in capacity over lifetime -- would need a 70kWh bank (48V 1400Ah), which would weigh about 1800kg -- and fitting in 24 cells each 20cm x 20cm x 70cm into a narrowboat is not easy, they won't fit under a bed, have to be in a sealed enclosure with ventilation (fans?), and really need automatic water topup.

 

You need to read up more on motors, the Lynch ones are old brushed DC designs which are noisier and less efficient than modern brushless PMAC motors.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

Are all these electrical boating Threads getting a bit too long to read and a bit too over complex to be bothered about to mere normal boaters?
 Maybe it’s time to have an electric boat/ Lithium powered section for the more intellectual?
 Hopefully the administrator’s @Jen-in-Wellies @magpie patrick can discuss it and maybe start a relevant section

Then all these tech Geek’s can discuss their theories and discuss how to bring 250 years of Narrow-boating into the 25th Century? 

[IanD]

4 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Are all these electrical boating Threads getting a bit too long to read and a bit too over complex to be bothered about to mere normal boaters?
 Maybe it’s time to have an electric boat/ Lithium powered section for the more intellectual?
 Hopefully the administrator’s @Jen-in-Wellies @magpie patrick can discuss it and maybe start a relevant section

Then all these tech Geek’s can discuss their theories and discuss how to bring 250 years of Narrow-boating into the 25th Century? 

If you find them boring, don't read them... 😉

 

Other people may have different interests to you, which is why they post in these threads -- after all, this is a discussion forum.

 

Have you considered that other people who don't share your interests might find some of your posts equally boring? 🙂

Edited October 3, 2024 by IanD

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

If you find them boring, don't read them... 😉

 

Other people may have different interests to you, which is why they post in these threads -- after all, this is a discussion forum.

 

Have you considered that other people who don't share your interests might find some of your posts equally boring? 🙂

Have you thought that people are getting a bit bored with you and your massive self indulgent posts on everything. All I said is maybe start an electric boat section and you can be the self important exper, 👍 wink, pathetic, wink.

Edited October 3, 2024 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Have you thought that people are getting a bit bored with you and your massive self indulgent posts on everything. All I said is maybe start an electric boat section and you can be the self important exper, 👍 wink, pathetic, wink.

Not surprised to see you just can't resist wheeling out the usual insults -- have you ever considered actually making a useful contribution instead?

 

In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is for people with interested minds about electrical systems. Since you obviously don't qualify, why are you reading it and complaining about it?

 

There's also a clue in the name of this Discussion Forum, it's for people to discuss things, and not everyone is interested in everything... 😉

Edited October 3, 2024 by IanD

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

50 minutes ago, IanD said:

Not surprised to see you just can't resist wheeling out the usual insults -- have you ever considered actually making a useful contribution instead?

 

In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is for people with interested minds about electrical systems. Since you obviously don't qualify, why are you reading it and complaining about it?

 

There's also a clue in the name of this Discussion Forum, it's for people to discuss things, and not everyone is interested in everything... 😉

Why do you always play the insult card? Typical cotton wool snowflake, quite pathetic for a 60 year old plus man.
 I take it you’re a control freak at work and in family life, who’s always right. 👍😉 maybe that reflects in your boat design, where everyone is curtailed in your presence and can’t get away from you😉

Edited October 3, 2024 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[bizzard]

Brushless electric motors have been around for donk's years. I have a 1950's Limit fan, a 1960's Electrolux cylinder vacuum cleaner and an old fan heater, all bought for fivers and tenners years ago at junk shops, all still going strong.

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, bizzard said:

Brushless electric motors have been around for donk's years. I have a 1950's Limit fan, a 1960's Electrolux cylinder vacuum cleaner and an old fan heater, all bought for fivers and tenners years ago at junk shops, all still going strong.

 

Yes, ever since Tesla I expect, but they were AC motors. Making virtually infinitely variable speed DC fed motor systems is comparatively modern,  especially when low consumption is required. It was not practical until stepper motors and similar became possible that we get brushless DC fed motors. Remember, just to get two speed windscreen wipers required three brushes in the past.

[IanD]

10 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Why do you always play the insult card? Typical cotton wool snowflake, quite pathetic for a 60 year old plus man.
 I take it you’re a control freak at work and in family life, who’s always right. 👍😉 maybe that reflects in your boat design, where everyone is curtailed in your presence and can’t get away from you😉

Useful information/comment : 0%

Insult/provocative content : 100%

Troll : 100%

[David Mack]

On 03/10/2024 at 09:52, T_i_m said:

 

3) Because the battery was so large, you wouldn't need to worry about it being fully charge every charge cycle and you wouldn't therefore have to worry about about over-discharge and cycle life. This is like us only using the car infrequently and so a 'full tank' sometimes lasting us a couple of months.

But you can fill the car tank in a few minutes. How long would it take you to recharge your enormous LA battery, and in the absence of any network of public charging stations, what would you charge it from?

Edited October 4, 2024 by David Mack

[IanD]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Yes, ever since Tesla I expect, but they were AC motors. Making virtually infinitely variable speed DC fed motor systems is comparatively modern,  especially when low consumption is required. It was not practical until stepper motors and similar became possible that we get brushless DC fed motors. Remember, just to get two speed windscreen wipers required three brushes in the past.

 

The modern PMDC motors (which are pretty complicated internally too...) used in most electric/hybrid boats (and EVs) are actually driven by 3-phase AC from a controller which is very similar to a 3-phase inverter with variable amplitude and frequency, all controlled by complex internal algorithms involving synthesized sinewaves, phase shifts, current/voltage measurements and proportional/integral control -- these were not practical until digital electronics/DSP and PWM drivers became cheap and reliable. Internally this is all pretty complicated and involves a considerable amount of programming, but nowadays this is all Somebody Else's Problem hidden inside a simple box like this:

 

https://www.voltsport.co.uk/Sevcon-Gen4-Size6-48V-650A-PMAC

 

The end result has many advantages over a traditional brushed DC motor, including sensing of motor/controller parameters for display (e.g. rpm/torque/current/temperature), simple speed or torque control, current limiting, torque limiting (e.g. for a blocked prop), overload/temperature protection -- as well as higher efficiency, lower noise, and zero maintenance.

Edited October 4, 2024 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

On 03/10/2024 at 09:52, T_i_m said:

3) Because the battery was so large, you wouldn't need to worry about it being fully charge every charge cycle and you wouldn't therefore have to worry about about over-discharge and cycle life. This is like us only using the car infrequently and so a 'full tank' sometimes lasting us a couple of months.

 

A totally meaningless comparison, I am afraid. Apart from a small amount of evaporation from petrol, the fuel in the tank will not deteriorate for months and months, and my experience with my mower is that can be well over a year.

 

With LA batteries (as I have explained) if left with any lead sulphate in the plates that will harden to the point it can not be reconverted to lead oxide without destroying the battery. So leaving any LA battery in anything but a fully charged state will lead to a loss of capacity because of the sulphation. I wonder if you understood that point. Boaters, usually new ones, who do not grasp this point often destroy their batteries within weeks, a couple of months at the most. A 440Ah ish domestic battery bank takes well over 10 hours to fully recharge from below 50% using the alternator, how long do you think it would take for a bank 100 times larger.

 

Now, if you are proposing fitting a far larger bank than is required just to allow for sulphation yet give an acceptable life then it cost money, needs even more battery storage space, and causes even more ballasting/trim problems.

 

Unless you can keep them fully charged every day/night like as they do with LA milk floats and fork lifts, then LA batteries really are not suitable for boat electric prolusion.

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

The modern PMDC motors (which are pretty complicated internally too...) used in most electric/hybrid boats (and EVs) are actually driven by 3-phase AC from a controller which is very similar to a 3-phase inverter with variable amplitude and frequency, all controlled by complex internal algorithms involving synthesized sinewaves, phase shifts, current/voltage measurements and proportional/integral control -- these were not practical until digital electronics/DSP and PWM drivers became cheap and reliable. Internally this is all pretty complicated and involves a considerable amount of programming, but nowadays this is all Somebody Else's Problem hidden inside a simple box like this:

 

https://www.voltsport.co.uk/Sevcon-Gen4-Size6-48V-650A-PMAC

 

The end result has many advantages over a traditional brushed DC motor, including sensing of motor/controller parameters for display (e.g. rpm/torque/current/temperature), simple speed or torque control, current limiting, torque limiting (e.g. for a blocked prop), overload/temperature protection -- as well as higher efficiency, lower noise, and zero maintenance.

 

But are they mechanically complicated, like brushed motor systems that need variable speed with minimal losses in the control system? I am sure they have complicated windings. I agree, it is the advent of high power electronics coupled with computerised control functions that have changed the game. I wanted to point out that Biz was probably not comparing like with like. I very much doubt the PMDC motors of today have much in common with the squirrel cage brushless one we had on our rotary inverter for recharging large banks of batteries.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

[snip]

 

But are they mechanically complicated, like brushed motor systems that need variable speed with minimal losses in the control system? I am sure they have complicated windings. I agree, it is the advent of high power electronics coupled with computerised control functions that have changed the game. I wanted to point out that Biz was probably not comparing like with like. I very much doubt the PMDC motors of today have much in common with the squirrel cage brushless one we had on our rotary inverter for recharging large banks of batteries.

 

PMDC motors are mechanically very simple, just a set of windings in a complex interleaved construction with (usually) neodymium magnets -- though designing them requires complicated computer simulations to design all the windings and flux paths to get the best efficiency, so this was also only possible in recent times as well as the computerised controller functions.

 

The internal neo magnets are however extremely powerful and generate huge magnetic fields, so specialised gear is needed to assemble and disassemble them -- there's a warning for anyone who fancies having a look inside. Ricky told me he had one motor with a failed internal temperature sensor (or wiring to it?) which he tried to replace, getting the motor apart and the rotor out was difficult enough but he said it was completely impossible to get it back together because of the huge forces pulling on the rotor... 😞 

[Gybe Ho]

18 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Are all these electrical boating Threads getting a bit too long to read and a bit too over complex to be bothered about to mere normal boaters?
 Maybe it’s time to have an electric boat/ Lithium powered section for the more intellectual?
 Hopefully the administrator’s @Jen-in-Wellies @magpie patrick can discuss it and maybe start a relevant section

Then all these tech Geek’s can discuss their theories and discuss how to bring 250 years of Narrow-boating into the 25th Century? 

 

This is an incredibly poor suggestion. The collective knowledge of Lithium battery installations in this place constitutes a knowledge black hole that undermines the credibility of the forum, @IanD and @cheesegas excepted. Hiding this black hole in a new geeks-only section will not help the forum in the long-term.

 

The typical 25 year old CMER single mum living on the towpath at the western end of the K&A knows more about Lithium batteries than the great & good of this forum. The recent "Is this obscure lithium battery brand a good deal at £550 per 100 Ah" thread, was a right comedy show.

[jonathanA]

22 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

This is an incredibly poor suggestion. The collective knowledge of Lithium battery installations in this place constitutes a knowledge black hole that undermines the credibility of the forum, @IanD and @cheesegas excepted. Hiding this black hole in a new geeks-only section will not help the forum in the long-term.

 

The typical 25 year old CMER single mum living on the towpath at the western end of the K&A knows more about Lithium batteries than the great & good of this forum. The recent "Is this obscure lithium battery brand a good deal at £550 per 100 Ah" thread, was a right comedy show.

Well as the instigator of that thread, which was genuine  unlike your  self important but completely drivel posts .. most of which like this utterly ludicrous 25 yo single mum comment... (WTF !!!!), Simply confirm what most people already think. There is an old saying better to say silent and be thought stupid , than open your mouth and remove all doubt....

 

Still it's only fair that I gave you a laugh after all the entertainment your I know best because I've seen a you tube video threads have given us.

 

Have you been  on a canal boat yet ? 

 

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Well as the instigator of that thread, which was genuine  unlike your  self important but completely drivel posts .. most of which like this utterly ludicrous 25 yo single mum comment... (WTF !!!!), Simply confirm what most people already think. There is an old saying better to say silent and be thought stupid , than open your mouth and remove all doubt....

 

Still it's only fair that I gave you a laugh after all the entertainment your I know best because I've seen a you tube video threads have given us.

 

Have you been  on a canal boat yet ? 

 

Useful information/comment : 0%

Insult/provocative content : 100%

Troll : 100%

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

This is an incredibly poor suggestion. The collective knowledge of Lithium battery installations in this place constitutes a knowledge black hole that undermines the credibility of the forum, @IanD and @cheesegas excepted. Hiding this black hole in a new geeks-only section will not help the forum in the long-term.

 

The typical 25 year old CMER single mum living on the towpath at the western end of the K&A knows more about Lithium batteries than the great & good of this forum. The recent "Is this obscure lithium battery brand a good deal at £550 per 100 Ah" thread, was a right comedy show.

 Why’s it a poor suggestion?

 It would make sense to have an Electric boat sub section in say the Boat Building and Maintenance section. Far better having Electric boat building questions in various sections like “General Boating”  “New to Boating” “Boat building and Maintenance” like what’s happening at the minute, surely?

Edited October 4, 2024 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[jonathanA]

18 minutes ago, IanD said:

Useful information/comment : 0%

Insult/provocative content : 100%

Troll : 100%

Hmm not sure why your having a pop at me... Gip ups  post was plainly stupid and offensive to me and you ..

 

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 Why’s it a poor suggestion?

 It would make sense to have an Electric boat sub section in say the Boat Building and Maintenance section. Far better having Electric boat building questions in various sections like “General Boating”  “New to Boating” “Boat building and Maintenance” like what’s happening at the minute, surely?

 

Because a lot of the discussions you refer to are not about electric boats, they're about lithium batteries -- or other modern electrical/electronic gear like big inverters or gas-free boats/electric cooking -- on conventional diesel boats?

 

The overlap between the two areas is considerable, so it doesn't make sense to try and split them out.

 

8 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Hmm not sure why your having a pop at me... Gip ups  post was plainly stupid and offensive to me and you ..

 

Because -- like the earlier one I made the same comment about -- your post was purely provocative and insulting another poster, with no other content.

 

That's pretty much the definition of trolling... 😉

 

(and there's too much of it on CWDF, most of it from a few posters who do it repeatedly -- though maybe not you...)

Edited October 4, 2024 by IanD

[Gybe Ho]

3 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 Why’s it a poor suggestion?

 It would make sense to have an Electric boat sub section in say the Boat Building and Maintenance section. Far better having Electric boat building questions in various sections like “General Boating”  “New to Boating” “Boat building and Maintenance” like what happening surely?

 

It was your motivation, i.e. to banish lithium battery install discussions to somewhere that can be ignored.

 

Within 10 years LA battery banks will be few are far between, Lithium batteries are not a subtopic of electric hybrid propulsion, the subject will become as mainstream as gearboxes and solid fuel stoves.

 

The forum needs to face up to its demons, not pretend they don't exist.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

14 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

It was your motivation, i.e. to banish lithium battery install discussions to somewhere that can be ignored.

 

Within 10 years LA battery banks will be few are far between, Lithium batteries are not a subtopic of electric hybrid propulsion, the subject will become as mainstream as gearboxes and solid fuel stoves.

 

The forum needs to face up to its demons, not pretend they don't exist.

What are you on about? 
 

Edited October 4, 2024 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Gybe Ho]

18 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Gip ups  post was plainly stupid and offensive to me and you ..

 

 

If you think my post was "plainly stupid", I challenge you to conduct the following experiment. Drive down to Devizes or Dundas, put one of your £550 per 100Ah drop-in lithiums in a trolley and walk along the K&A where the CMERS hang out. Whenever you see a young solo female liveaboard say "excuse me madam can I interest you in one of my batteries". It would take the young boater about 10 seconds to realize £550 for 100Ah is an outrageous price to pay and 20 seconds to conclude you were a tow path conman.

 

The very same proposition on this forum leads to a serious discussion.