Interested minds ... (boat electrical systems, the 'Big picture').

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Does the 35000 figure include minor craft such as rowing boats?

 

And how many electric propulsion narrowboats are there on the network today, 100 or 200? The CRT should be able to provide the figure based on the number of licenses discounted by 25% for their serial hybrid status.

It's the number of boats with CART licenses, which doesn't include rowing boats.

 

I expect there are only at most a couple of hundred electric/hybrid boats out today, I'm sure CART know but AFAIK they've never published figures. But like EVs -- which today make up about 3% of the cars on the roads -- you have to look to the future when the majority (might) have converted.

 

Which will be a *very* long time for boats, unless the rules are changed to push people towards them and away from diesels -- which is unreasonable when there are few or no charging stations so every "electric" boat needs a generator or to be plugged in part of the time in a marina.

 

Chicken and egg -- until there are enough chargers for electric boats to work nobody will (or can) buy them, but nobody will install enough chargers to make this work until there are enough electric boats to use them... 😞 

 

If the issue being addressed is being "green", running diesel boats on HVO makes far more sense for most boaters.

 

In the meantime, a small but gradually increasing number of boaters will "go electric" for the silence -- so long as they're not running their onboard generator when their solar can't keep up while they're away from their home mooring... 😉 

Edited October 5, 2024 by IanD

[T_i_m]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

<snip>

In the meantime, a small but gradually increasing number of boaters will "go electric" for the silence --

<waves>

 

After spending many (many) hours very close to a British Seagull, a Yamaha 2 and  3.5hp 2/ outboards and the resulting Tinnitus, silently slipping along pushed by the Yamaha M12 electric trolling motor (a re-badged Minn Kota) is real bliss.

 

When we first bought the Seahopper Kondor at a boat thing at Beale Park we were going round on a 60Ah sealed LA battery for a good 3 hours with capacity to spare. 😉

Edited October 5, 2024 by T_i_m

[Tony Brooks]

6 hours ago, T_i_m said:

Getting back to things more basic if I may for a sec ...

 

So, when trying to apply some pressure into my mates 'long and thinnish' blue pressure vessel that is 'T'd' into his pumped water system, just after the pump, I could only get on the Schrader valve by feel and then found the pressure gauge on this 'unused' car foot pump didn't work (the very thing we were going to do 'Of course'.). ;-(

 

However, some observations if I may that may mean something to the learned panel.

 

When I was pumping (by hand) it sounded like, initially at least) I was blowing air though water? How common (if at all) is it to have a pressure vessel without bladder or how often for the bladders to fail?

 

I ask without having any direct memory of the construction of said PV, other than a braided flex going from it to the boat CW feed, it being 'loose' in the space (not hard mounted in any way) and a F'inPITA to deal with (like most things in a Nb from my experience so far). ;-(

 

I mean, I think I understand how the air in such a buffer would work and apart from orientation / management issues, it probably not mattering if there was a diaphragm or not?

 

Also, I spoke to a very nice and knowledgeable man (Daniel) at the Xylem pump tech support who mentioned they hadn't sold many of the diaphragms for that particular Jabsco pump, potentially suggesting that it was either pretty durable (or too expensive to bother with over a new pump etc).

 

However, from my understanding of the construction, as long as there is a good water seal between the diaphragm and the valve box (and ignoring any other potential leak sources), for water to get past the diaphragm into the motor bell housing, it would have to come through the diaphragm? I would really need to extending the hoses / wiring and run the pump out where I can examine it closely as it might look like the water is coming out of the main motor casing drain hole, even though the corroding in there suggests it is.

 

It's this pump and scroll down for exploded diagram.

 

It's quite expensive for 'a diaphragm' because there is quite a bit more than just the rubber bit (bearing, wobble plate, moulding etc).

 

*If* it is just the diaphragm, it would be ~1/4 of the price of a replacement pump and the rest of the pump seems to run fine?

 

 

 

First of all it is not The diaphragm - singular. It is a diaphragm assembly consisting of 5 (I think) small diaphragms for 5 small pumps.

 

There are few accumulators that do not use a bladder or diaphragm, this means we can not be sure the one you are dealing with has or has not.

 

If you did hear air bubbling through water, it suggests (no more than suggest) that the bladder/diaphragm may be punctured.

 

You can't check the pump cut out pressure without a pressure gauge, but you can set the accumulator pressure.

Blow the accumulator up to well above the normal pressure, using a hand pump, may give a better feel.

Turn the pump on and wait for it to turn off.

Push the pin in the accumulator valve down to slowly release the air pressure until the pump just cuts in.

That is it - accumulator pressure set.

 

 

 

 

 

[T_i_m]

18 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

First of all it is not The diaphragm - singular. It is a diaphragm assembly consisting of 5 (I think) small diaphragms for 5 small pumps.

 

There are few accumulators that do not use a bladder or diaphragm, this means we can not be sure the one you are dealing with has or has not.

 

If you did hear air bubbling through water, it suggests (no more than suggest) that the bladder/diaphragm may be punctured.

 

You can't check the pump cut out pressure without a pressure gauge, but you can set the accumulator pressure.

Blow the accumulator up to well above the normal pressure, using a hand pump, may give a better feel.

Turn the pump on and wait for it to turn off.

Push the pin in the accumulator valve down to slowly release the air pressure until the pump just cuts in.

That is it - accumulator pressure set.

 

Understood about the diaphragm, I was referring to 'it' on the grounds you can only replace 'it' in the singular rather than referencing how it works. 😉 

 

Ok on the accumulator. I have seen how the bladders can be fitted / changed on these things on Youtube but not sure about this particular one (yet). I was wondering how common each type may have been over the years ... if there has been a trend change over the years etc.

 

I like that setting procedure, thanks Tony. 😉

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Understood about the diaphragm, I was referring to 'it' on the grounds you can only replace 'it' in the singular rather than referencing how it works. 😉 

 

Ok on the accumulator. I have seen how the bladders can be fitted / changed on these things on Youtube but not sure about this particular one (yet). I was wondering how common each type may have been over the years ... if there has been a trend change over the years etc.

 

I like that setting procedure, thanks Tony. 😉

 

As far as inland boats are concerned, very few have no bladder or diaphragm.

 

I am sure you can change the bladders on some accumulators, but the question then is where do you get a new one and is it financially viable when compared with a potable water one from a plumbers merchant/Screwfix etc.

 

If the diaphragm is punctured then if you have the pump off and a tap open someone should hear air bubbling out of the tap when you try to pressurise the accumulator. You should also find t impossible to build up air pressure in the accumulator.

[T_i_m]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

As far as inland boats are concerned, very few have no bladder or diaphragm.

 

I am sure you can change the bladders on some accumulators, but the question then is where do you get a new one and is it financially viable when compared with a potable water one from a plumbers merchant/Screwfix etc.

 

If the diaphragm is punctured then if you have the pump off and a tap open someone should hear air bubbling out of the tap when you try to pressurise the accumulator. You should also find t impossible to build up air pressure in the accumulator.

Thanks for all the accumulator info Tony.

 

I think the next / easiest thing might be to re-connect his Travel Power but I need to get back onto looking for the manual.

 

Not sure if this guy even got the answers he needed:

[1st ade]

16 hours ago, IanD said:

If you want the private sector to provide stuff it's got to make commercial sense for them, and things like canalside chargers (or water points, or many other canal things) simply don't

Thinking outside the box a little (and something for @magpie patrick to think about in his copious free time...) there must be at least some locations where chargers are accessible by both road and water - thinking maybe a supermarket car park with adjacent canal could have chargers lined up along the boundary and offer both cars and boaters two hours free parking / mooring; provided they shop at the store! Either could also charge while they shop.

 

Someone will now say the connectors and charging technology are different...

[Gybe Ho]

17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That is C&RTs figures for licences issued (which includes everything - even canoes)

 

There are some 90,000+ licenced boats on the inland waterways, but, then you are not looking at just 2000 miles of waterways, you are looking at many 1000s of miles from The Norfolk Broads, to the Lake District & Loch Lomond to the River Thames etc etc.

 

A few days ago I read that 80,000 boats are subject to BSS examination regs which seemed odd given that a subset of the CRT's 34,000 licenced boats would need a BSS certificate and coastal leisure craft are outside the remit of the BSS. My conclusion is there are 2 times more substantial inland waterway boats in the UK than there are on CRT waterways 

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

My conclusion is there are 2 times more substantial inland waterway boats in the UK than there are on CRT waterways 

 

 

As I commented above, C&RT are responsible for something less than 40% of Inland waterways boats, and certainly less than 50% of the Inland waterways (by mileage)

The main 21 Navigation authorities include C&RT and the Environment Agency (the two biggies) (which receive grant-aid from government), in addition to the Broads Authority, national park authorities, local government authorities, private canal companies, internal drainage boards, and a variety of public and charitable trusts.

There are approximately 6000km of navigable waterways 'managed' by one of the above.

 

Folks seem to forget that there is a big world of boating outside of C&RT waters - add in the estimated 300,000 leisure craft based in coastal waters and C&RT become a small cog in a big (boating) wheel.

 

Edit to add - not all Inland Navigation Authorities require a BSS.

 

 

 

To answer a previous question C&RT issue licences for some ~800 'Non-Powered' boats (rowing boats, canoes etc) many issued via the likes of the British Canoe Union.

 

A few years ago there was a problem with the BCU and VAT as C&RT (Illegally) charge VAT on boat river "licences" and there were internal discussions in C&RT on how to circumvent the problem.

 

 

Extract from internal email :

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2024 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

6 hours ago, 1st ade said:

Thinking outside the box a little (and something for @magpie patrick to think about in his copious free time...) there must be at least some locations where chargers are accessible by both road and water - thinking maybe a supermarket car park with adjacent canal could have chargers lined up along the boundary and offer both cars and boaters two hours free parking / mooring; provided they shop at the store! Either could also charge while they shop.

 

Someone will now say the connectors and charging technology are different...

Which of course they are... 😉 

 

There's some incentive for canalside businesses -- supermarkets, pubs, shops, restaurants -- to provide canalside chargers to persuade boaters to stop there (possibly overnight) and spend money, just like some pubs provide moorings for customers -- and there wouldn't be a huge cabling cost since they'll aready have power close to hand.

 

Which might well work once there are enough electric boats who would use them -- oh dear, back to chicken and egg again... 😞 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

There's some incentive for canalside businesses -- supermarkets, pubs, shops, restaurants -- to provide canalside chargers to persuade boaters to stop there (possibly overnight) and spend money, just like some pubs provide moorings for customers -- and there wouldn't be a huge cabling cost since they'll aready have power close to hand. 

Like the Ragley Boat Stop on the T&M 

 

Edited October 6, 2024 by ditchcrawler

[T_i_m]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Like the Ragley Boat Stop on the T&M 

 

There you go, it just takes one to start the ball rolling. 😉

 

"No, we will be going to the Ragley Boat Stop as we can charge as we shop / drink / eat ... " 😉

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Like the Ragley Boat Stop on the T&M 

 

There you go, it just takes one to start the ball rolling. 😉

 

"No, we will be going to the Ragley Boat Stop as we can charge as we shop / drink / eat ... " 😉

22 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am sure you can change the bladders on some accumulators, but the question then is where do you get a new one and is it financially viable when compared with a potable water one from a plumbers merchant/Screwfix etc.

So I notice they are pretty cheap on Screwfix but what size do we go for out of 2/12/18 or 24l?  I mean, should it be matched with some other components or is it a case of 'the bigger the better' or 'biggest you have space for' etc please?

[Tony Brooks]

24 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

So I notice they are pretty cheap on Screwfix but what size do we go for out of 2/12/18 or 24l?  I mean, should it be matched with some other components or is it a case of 'the bigger the better' or 'biggest you have space for' etc please?

 

Make sure they are for potable water, the cheapest ones usually are not. I don't think the size matters much.  The larger the size the longer it will take for the pump to cut in when a tap is opened and the longer it will take to turn off when a tap is closed, also the longer the cycling period if the flow from the tap is less than pump output. I would probably go for q4 litres from the sizes you give, but would prefer something a bit smaller.

[GUMPY]

I had a 15 Litre accumulator from memory, the pump used to run for the best part of 2 minutes after I turned off the tap. However the pump rarely came on in the night after using the toilet (the pump was under the bed)  and never cycled. 

So I would go for a 12 or 18 from those choices.

[T_i_m]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Make sure they are for potable water, the cheapest ones usually are not. I don't think the size matters much.  The larger the size the longer it will take for the pump to cut in when a tap is opened and the longer it will take to turn off when a tap is closed, also the longer the cycling period if the flow from the tap is less than pump output. I would probably go for q4 litres from the sizes you give, but would prefer something a bit smaller.

Yeah, these were the potable ones Tony.

 

When I get on my mates boat next I'll see if I can get more info on the accumulator and should be able to calculate the volume from the dims.

2 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

I had a 15 Litre accumulator from memory, the pump used to run for the best part of 2 minutes after I turned off the tap. However the pump rarely came on in the night after using the toilet (the pump was under the bed)  and never cycled. 

So I would go for a 12 or 18 from those choices.

Thanks for that G.

 

My mate seems to have an issue with the duration of his pump overrun, possibly more about what he's used to rather than what's right or wrong but your setup sounds pretty sorted.

 

Do we normally add the service valves to the accumulators or is it just another thing to go wrong?

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, T_i_m said:

components or is it a case of 'the bigger the better' or 'biggest you have space for' etc please?

That is my view plus Tony's comment on quality . The bigger it is the less often the pump will need to start.

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Yeah, these were the potable ones Tony.

 

When I get on my mates boat next I'll see if I can get more info on the accumulator and should be able to calculate the volume from the dims.

Thanks for that G.

 

My mate seems to have an issue with the duration of his pump overrun, possibly more about what he's used to rather than what's right or wrong but your setup sounds pretty sorted.

 

Do we normally add the service valves to the accumulators or is it just another thing to go wrong?

 

 

 

In my experience, so-called service valves tend to readily seize up. Anyway, turn the pump off, open a tap, when water stops flowing close it, and turn the main water valve off near the tank, then no air can easily get into the tap pipework that gives a bit f head so simply unscrewing the old accumulator and screwing the new one ack on should only leak a little.

[T_i_m]

Favour if I may, does anyone reading this thread own an older Travelpower box and could ideally give me the details off the info plate as I think I need such to be able to download (or get T/S to send them) the installation and owners manuals for my friends old (white box) Travel Power 230V 3.5kW box / alternator / wiring please?

 

Or if you have eCopies yourself, fwd them to us?

 

My (elderly) friend can't see the info plate on his and can't easily take a pic and Whatsapp it to me.

 

Edited October 7, 2024 by T_i_m

[T_i_m]

 

Another thought ... the BMV-712 battery monitor ... can / does it show the actual capacity, maybe over time and a few charge / discharge cycles etc?

 

I have a couple of 'instant' battery capacity testers that I believe were quite expensive when new that seem to work ok [1] but a continuous / intelligent unit would be better (and hopefully what the BMV-712 is?).

 

[1] I have compared the result of said battery testers against doing an actual C/20 discharge load test.

[GUMPY]

After a while any shunt based meter that counts amps in and out will lie about the capacity of the battery bank.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, T_i_m said:

 

Another thought ... the BMV-712 battery monitor ... can / does it show the actual capacity, maybe over time and a few charge / discharge cycles etc?

 

I have a couple of 'instant' battery capacity testers that I believe were quite expensive when new that seem to work ok [1] but a continuous / intelligent unit would be better (and hopefully what the BMV-712 is?).

 

[1] I have compared the result of said battery testers against doing an actual C/20 discharge load test.

No the BMV is just a straightforward amp-hour counter. It is up to you to set the correct actual capacity. There is another device that merges Ah counting with an estimate of capacity based on rested voltage, but it is very expensive, around £800 iirc. An alternative is to also fit a Smartgauge which doesn’t measure current but estimates SoC simply by measuring voltage. It is pretty good during discharge but poor during charge. The two devices combined plus a bit of interpretation are about as good as it gets for accurate SoC and capacity estimation.

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

No the BMV is just a straightforward amp-hour counter. It is up to you to set the correct actual capacity. There is another device that merges Ah counting with an estimate of capacity based on rested voltage, but it is very expensive, around £800 iirc. An alternative is to also fit a Smartgauge which doesn’t measure current but estimates SoC simply by measuring voltage. It is pretty good during discharge but poor during charge. The two devices combined plus a bit of interpretation are about as good as it gets for accurate SoC and capacity estimation.

 

And notwithstanding all of the above, battery capacity varies, depending on how fast you are discharging it AIUI.

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, T_i_m said:

 

Another thought ... the BMV-712 battery monitor ... can / does it show the actual capacity, maybe over time and a few charge / discharge cycles etc?

 

I have a couple of 'instant' battery capacity testers that I believe were quite expensive when new that seem to work ok [1] but a continuous / intelligent unit would be better (and hopefully what the BMV-712 is?).

 

[1] I have compared the result of said battery testers against doing an actual C/20 discharge load test.

I have never seen one that tells the truth

48 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

No the BMV is just a straightforward amp-hour counter. It is up to you to set the correct actual capacity. There is another device that merges Ah counting with an estimate of capacity based on rested voltage, but it is very expensive, around £800 iirc. An alternative is to also fit a Smartgauge which doesn’t measure current but estimates SoC simply by measuring voltage. It is pretty good during discharge but poor during charge. The two devices combined plus a bit of interpretation are about as good as it gets for accurate SoC and capacity estimation.

Most people work on the basis that when the fridge wont run all night the batteries are depleted.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

And notwithstanding all of the above, battery capacity varies, depending on how fast you are discharging it AIUI.

 

Certainly does for LA where capacity is usually specified at C/20 (5A load for a 100Ah battery); at C/5 (20A) capacity typically drops to 80%, then 60% at C/2 (50A) and 50% at C (100A). LA *really* don't like heavy loads... 😞 

 

(though actually the problem is worse than that when running an inverter because voltage also drops at high rates, so the energy capacity at 1C is closer to 40% of nominal)

 

No such effect for LFP, there's negligible loss (a few percent) even at 1C rate (1 hour discharge from 100% SoC to 0%)... 🙂 

 

Added to the recommendation only to use 50% of the SoC range for LA to maximise the (already short) lifetime, and the conclusion is that if you want the same effective battery size when powering heavy loads (1 hour discharge) LFP batteries only need to have 20% of the nominal capacity of LA...

Edited October 8, 2024 by IanD

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

And notwithstanding all of the above, battery capacity varies, depending on how fast you are discharging it AIUI.

 

Not really, well not unless you continuously discharge it at a high rate until it is flat, which is not a typical boat leisure battery usage. And even then, it is not really flat!

Let us take a 100Ah battery. Discharge at 100A for 6 minutes. How much capacity left? Answer is that if you leave it to rest for a bit and then subsequently discharge it at the rated rate (say C/20), you still have 90% left (100A for 1/10th hour = 10Ah). Peukert only comes into play if you continue to discharge at 100A until the battery is flat, then you would find it flat after much less than 100% capacity taken out.

Of course as IanD says, this is only looking at charge. If you look at energy, the fast discharge wastes a lot of energy because whilst the current and Ah used up is the same, the voltage is lower and hence the power and energy is lower.

Edited October 8, 2024 by nicknorman