Interested minds ... (boat electrical systems, the 'Big picture').

[T_i_m]

23 hours ago, David Mack said:

But you can fill the car tank in a few minutes. How long would it take you to recharge your enormous LA battery, and in the absence of any network of public charging stations, what would you charge it from?

I think you are looking at this as in 'today' rather than what could be. 😉

 

How many petrol stations where there when they invented the first IC engined car?

 

If you are running a live-aboard Nb you may have two weeks to charge it up between 'moves' and even then you generally don't need to go very far. So it's a matter of having the right fit for the tech, rather than assuming you can (or should, pollution / environmental damage) simply carry on doing what we always have.

 

But then I own a Sinclair C5, was happy with an EV that only had a range of 20 miles. 😉

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, T_i_m said:

I think you are looking at this as in 'today' rather than what could be. 😉

 

How many petrol stations where there when they invented the first IC engined car?

 

If you are running a live-aboard Nb you may have two weeks to charge it up between 'moves' and even then you generally don't need to go very far. So it's a matter of having the right fit for the tech, rather than assuming you can (or should, pollution / environmental damage) simply carry on doing what we always have.

 

But then I own a Sinclair C5, was happy with an EV that only had a range of 20 miles. 😉

 

But you are still not addressing the sulphation issue with leaving LA batteries partially discharged for longer periods. That is if we ignore the fact that solar won't recharge the large bank in enough time during the winter and there is no realistic prospect of getting canal side charging points installed for the foreseeable future.

 

Your argument about petrol stations is also applicable to recycling lithium batteries, just like petrol stations and LA recycling, over the next few years lithium battery recycling will become widespread as the demand grows.

 

The bottom line is that for propulsion LA is an old and very flawed technology, lithium technology is less flawed so the best we have at present. I am sure that over the next ten years we will see lithium batteries for domestic use become far more widespread. thie is for excatly the same reasons that they are appropriate for propulsion:

 

Far longer cyclic life

No sulphation

Faster charging from a given source

Longer or far longer useful life (this is derived from the first two on the list).

 

[T_i_m]

17 hours ago, Gybe Ho said:

<snip>

I noticed the thread meandering its way back to a "Lead Acid is king" resolution ...

<snip>

FWIW, I personally have never suggested that, I was just wondering (from my 'boating and EV' but limited 'Nb' focus) if there could still (could especially from a initial cost, simplicity and minimal-weight-issue POV) have a place.

 

Like, I have hired a LA powered dayboat on the broads for a day and it seemed to still be going as fast when we took it back as when we picked it up?

 

I nearly made up a fairly large LiPo pack to run my electric (trolling motor) folding boat (Seahopper) until I considered what a LiPo firework would be like in a wooden boat in the middle of Loch Ness, so when for LA 'mobility' batteries instead (I even determined the maximum weight of LA battery the Mrs could safely hand to be from the bank). 😉

 

So, IF you could have a false floor under a Nb that could (safely) take a bank of LA batteries and IF your demands on the system suited such and IF LA was actually greener than alternative technologies where you could afford the initial outlay, then why not? 😉  ...

[Gybe Ho]

Just now, T_i_m said:

FWIW, I personally have never suggested that, I was just wondering (from my 'boating and EV' but limited 'Nb' focus) if there could still (could especially from a initial cost, simplicity and minimal-weight-issue POV) have a place.

 

 

Ah crossed wires, I now understand the @Tony Brooks response yesterday. The "LA is king" was a reference to another thread active a few weeks ago. I reverenced that thread to illustrate that I think this forum has a cultural blindspot re. lithium battery installations.

 

This forum tends to be dominated by the group-think of 10 highly active posters who cannot comprehend the concept of being wrong.  As a result new ideas permeate this forum at glacial speed. The "10" probably view themselves as the last Spartans standing holding back the the wrong-think zombies who have emerged from primordial slime of YouTube and Facebook. This is just an internet forum, not the pass at Thermopolis.

[T_i_m]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But you are still not addressing the sulphation issue with leaving LA batteries partially discharged for longer periods. That is if we ignore the fact that solar won't recharge the large bank in enough time during the winter and there is no realistic prospect of getting canal side charging points installed for the foreseeable future.

 

Your argument about petrol stations is also applicable to recycling lithium batteries, just like petrol stations and LA recycling, over the next few years lithium battery recycling will become widespread as the demand grows.

 

The bottom line is that for propulsion LA is an old and very flawed technology, lithium technology is less flawed so the best we have at present. I am sure that over the next ten years we will see lithium batteries for domestic use become far more widespread. thie is for excatly the same reasons that they are appropriate for propulsion:

 

Far longer cyclic life

No sulphation

Faster charging from a given source

Longer or far longer useful life (this is derived from the first two on the list).

 

I'm not arguing with any of your points Tony, but most only apply IF you can afford the 'better' solution in the first place.

 

Like. My EV is designed around 8 x 6V x 200AH semi-traction LA monblocks. If I wanted to get it back on the road I'm pretty sure I couldn't justify the cost of doing it any other way than replacing the LA with LA.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

<snip>

This forum tends to be dominated by the group-think of 10 highly active posters who cannot comprehend the concept of being wrong.  As a result new ideas permeate this forum at glacial speed. The "10" probably view themselves as the last Spartans standing holding back the the wrong-think zombies who have emerged from primordial slime of YouTube and Facebook. This is just an internet forum, not the pass at Thermopolis.

Quite. 😉

 

Oh, and I'm happy to be put in the 'wrong-think-zombie' category as often progress sometimes comes from those who question the status-quo. 😉

 

So, 'Whatever you want ...'

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But you are still not addressing the sulphation issue with leaving LA batteries partially discharged for longer periods. That is if we ignore the fact that solar won't recharge the large bank in enough time during the winter and there is no realistic prospect of getting canal side charging points installed for the foreseeable future.

 

Your argument about petrol stations is also applicable to recycling lithium batteries, just like petrol stations and LA recycling, over the next few years lithium battery recycling will become widespread as the demand grows.

 

The bottom line is that for propulsion LA is an old and very flawed technology, lithium technology is less flawed so the best we have at present. I am sure that over the next ten years we will see lithium batteries for domestic use become far more widespread. thie is for excatly the same reasons that they are appropriate for propulsion:

 

Far longer cyclic life

No sulphation

Faster charging from a given source

Longer or far longer useful life (this is derived from the first two on the list).

 

 

Since a bit bigger size and weight doesn't matter for narrowboats or houses and cost is king, it's likely that sodium batteries will take over from lithium for these applications in the future when they're in mass production and the price drops below lithium (much cheaper raw materials, essentially unlimited supply).

 

Lithium batteries are likely to stay in use for EVs and portable equipment becausethey're smaller and lighter than sodium, unless some othe even better technology comes along -- but not just in the lab, it has to make it into mass production at low cost, which is where many of the "wonder-battery" concepts fall down... 😞 

[T_i_m]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Since a bit bigger size and weight doesn't matter for narrowboats or houses and cost is king, it's likely that sodium batteries will take over from lithium for these applications in the future when they're in mass production and the price drops below lithium (much cheaper raw materials, essentially unlimited supply).

 

Lithium batteries are likely to stay in use for EVs and portable equipment becausethey're smaller and lighter than sodium, unless some othe even better technology comes along -- but not just in the lab, it has to make it into mass production at low cost, which is where many of the "wonder-battery" concepts fall down... 😞 

Yeah, that captures more of the spirit of what I was 'putting out there' ... could there be another / better way of providing a very long runtime (replacing 2 tonne of ballast with 2 tonne of traction power) that the chances are you could charge reasonably easily / well ... even if not right now / everywhere.

 

About 10 years ago the alarm on the kitcar we built started killing the SLI battery (nicad in the alarm going bad and taking charge all the time). That SLI battery was flat (as a pancake) and was likely to have been so for months. I took it out, gave it a good bench charge, put it back in and it's still in there now. It's still often fairy weak and won't start the car as it also needs some help to get the fuel back up) but once started, it will re-start the car as often as needed that day.

 

It has been very flat for months at a time since but now has a 6" square solar panel on it that will start it first time if it had run recently.

 

Someone needs to tell that battery about sulfation. 😉

Edited October 5, 2024 by T_i_m

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Yeah, that captures more of the spirit of what I was 'putting out there' ... could there be another / better way of providing a very long runtime (replacing 2 tonne of ballast with 2 tonne of traction power) that the chances are you could charge reasonably easily / well ... even if not right now / everywhere.

 

About 10 years ago the alarm on the kitcar we built started killing the SLI battery (nicad in the alarm going bad and taking charge all the time). That SLI battery was flat (as a pancake) and was likely to have been so for months. I took it out, gave it a good bench charge, put it back in and it's still in there now. It's still often fairy weak and won't start the car as it also needs so help to get the fuel back up) but once started, it will re-start the car as often as needed that day.

 

It has been very flat for months at a time since but now has a 6" square solar panel on it that will start it first time if it had run recently.

 

Someone needs to tell that battery about sulfation. 😉

The difference is that sodium batteries are maybe 50% bigger/heavier than lithium but have all the same advantages (100% SoC usable, no sulphation, >3000 cycles life in real conditions), lead-acid are 3x bigger and 5x heavier, only have about 50% S0C usable, suffer from sulphation and need hours of regular extended charging to prevent this, and have maybe a fifth (or a tenth if not well-treated) of the lifetime in real-life conditions so cost a lot more over lifetime.

 

If you need small batteries which are only lightly used, LA are fine. For big battery banks with heavier use, they're obsolete.

Edited October 5, 2024 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Yeah, that captures more of the spirit of what I was 'putting out there' ... could there be another / better way of providing a very long runtime (replacing 2 tonne of ballast with 2 tonne of traction power) that the chances are you could charge reasonably easily / well ... even if not right now / everywhere.

 

 

That I fully agree with, but LA is not the answer.

40 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Since a bit bigger size and weight doesn't matter for narrowboats or houses and cost is king, it's likely that sodium batteries will take over from lithium for these applications in the future when they're in mass production and the price drops below lithium (much cheaper raw materials, essentially unlimited supply).

 

Lithium batteries are likely to stay in use for EVs and portable equipment becausethey're smaller and lighter than sodium, unless some othe even better technology comes along -- but not just in the lab, it has to make it into mass production at low cost, which is where many of the "wonder-battery" concepts fall down... 😞 

 

I basically agree, but am not sure about the size and weight does not matter because of getting the boat to trim correctly.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That I fully agree with, but LA is not the answer.

 

I basically agree, but am not sure about the size and weight does not matter because of getting the boat to trim correctly.

 

That's what I said -- sodium is fine (only a little bit bigger and heavier than LFP) but LA is not (a lot bigger and much *much* heavier) -- almost 2 tons of 700mm tall 2V cells are not easy to fit into a narrowboat without making trimming really difficult...

 

Adding much less extra weight than this to the stern of my boat (generator inertia frame + 7kVa IT) meant we had to remove *all* the ballast astern of the dinette to get the boat trimmed... 😞 

Edited October 5, 2024 by IanD

[nicknorman]

There are electric or at least hybrid LA-based narrowboats around. Felonious Mongoose was probably one of the first.

 

https://hybridmarine.co.uk/index.php/products/case-studies/30-case-study-nb-felonious-mongoose

 

So it can be done but why would you want to when Li has so many advantages. The chap who bought Felonious didn’t realise that the LA batteries were knackered and was faced with a massive bill which he couldn’t afford. He was plugged in to shore power at our marina for a while, sulphuric acid fumes were seem coming out of the skin vent as the batteries “boiled”. 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, T_i_m said:

If you are running a live-aboard Nb you may have two weeks to charge it up between 'moves' and even then you generally don't need to go very far.

If you are on a mooring with a shoreline that's fine. If your mooring doesn't have power or you are a CCer where are you going to charge? Even if a few public charging points are provided, you aren't going to be allowed to hog one for 14 days. Many public EV charging points are limited to an hour or so's use at a time. Wouldn't similar restrictions apply at electric boat charging points?

[T_i_m]

Just now, David Mack said:

If you are on a mooring with a shoreline that's fine. If your mooring doesn't have power or you are a CCer where are you going to charge? Even if a few public charging points are provided, you aren't going to be allowed to hog one for 14 days. Many public EV charging points are limited to an hour or so's use at a time. Wouldn't similar restrictions apply at electric boat charging points?

Again, we seem to be focusing on what's typical now, rather what could be ... and is likely to be at some time in the future, especially when any further rules re running 'stationary engines' could kick in? <shrug>

 

However, you may well be right re the state of play *today* re power hook ups as I'm coming from a more camping / caravanning / RV  perspective where if you book a plot with power, it's yours 24/7 for the duration of your stay.

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If you are on a mooring with a shoreline that's fine. If your mooring doesn't have power or you are a CCer where are you going to charge? Even if a few public charging points are provided, you aren't going to be allowed to hog one for 14 days. Many public EV charging points are limited to an hour or so's use at a time. Wouldn't similar restrictions apply at electric boat charging points?

 

Power limitations both on shore and boat mean charging points are likely to be 16A (3.7kW) or at most 32A (7.4kW), which means hours of charging not quick-charge -- so the most likely scenario is that this would be done overnight at a charging point. If done during the day -- a  "splash-and-dash" topup -- then there would presumably be time restrictions to stop people hogging them (because there will never be enough to support semi-permanent plugins like at a marina), though how to enforce these would be interesting... 😉 

 

(like water points that say "30m/60m max"...)

 

5 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Again, we seem to be focusing on what's typical now, rather what could be ... and is likely to be at some time in the future, especially when any further rules re running 'stationary engines' could kick in? <shrug>

 

However, you may well be right re the state of play *today* re power hook ups as I'm coming from a more camping / caravanning / RV  perspective where if you book a plot with power, it's yours 24/7 for the duration of your stay.

 

That's how marinas work, but charging points out on the network would have to minimise time plugged in to keep the number required manageable.

Edited October 5, 2024 by IanD

[T_i_m]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

<snip>

I basically agree, but am not sure about the size and weight does not matter because of getting the boat to trim correctly.

But again, isn't this only an issue when we put the boat before the horse?

 

I mean, if you look at a traditional IC engine powered Nb, it's likely the biggest mass after the hull itself was the engine and that would fit into a fairly small space up the blunt end. Given they are rarely more than 6' from a bank and fuel supply, they may not *need* massively long range tanks and so also that wasn't to difficult to contain, whilst still offering a huge space for a good few tonnes / large volume of goods.

 

If we THEN take that space and convert it into accommodation you can pretty well use all the load space for people and their stuff.

 

But what if we designed a similarly shaped / size boat to be (say LA / sodium) powered and then used the remaining space for us and our things, how might that design be different?

 

When the focus is on efficiency rather than trying to duplicating our brick built homes in a hole in the water?

 

I mean, (and I'm not advocating this as a permanent solution etc), many people have converted / upgraded their homes (be it a pile of bricks, a van or hole in the water) whilst living in them, and somehow seem to manage without all the marble and chrome trimmings. Sitting on a box and doing dinner on a single burner.

 

How much less 'living' is that? 😉

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

But again, isn't this only an issue when we put the boat before the horse?

 

I mean, if you look at a traditional IC engine powered Nb, it's likely the biggest mass after the hull itself was the engine and that would fit into a fairly small space up the blunt end. Given they are rarely more than 6' from a bank and fuel supply, they may not *need* massively long range tanks and so also that wasn't to difficult to contain, whilst still offering a huge space for a good few tonnes / large volume of goods.

 

If we THEN take that space and convert it into accommodation you can pretty well use all the load space for people and their stuff.

 

But what if we designed a similarly shaped / size boat to be (say LA / sodium) powered and then used the remaining space for us and our things, how might that design be different?

 

When the focus is on efficiency rather than trying to duplicating our brick built homes in a hole in the water?

 

I mean, (and I'm not advocating this as a permanent solution etc), many people have converted / upgraded their homes (be it a pile of bricks, a van or hole in the water) whilst living in them, and somehow seem to manage without all the marble and chrome trimmings. Sitting on a box and doing dinner on a single burner.

 

How much less 'living' is that? 😉

 

That's pretty much what the better hybrid/electric boats do today -- and for very good reasons most use LFP batteries... 😉 

 

Yes some cut corners to keep the upfront cost down and still use undersized LA or lead-carbon cells (also cheap Chinese motors with belt drive, and small high-speed generators, and MDF, and anything else that reduces cost...), but the likely result is shorter lifetime and higher costs in the long-term, and dissatisfaction for the boater... 😞 

Edited October 5, 2024 by IanD

[T_i_m]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

<snip>

That's how marinas work, but charging points out on the network would have to minimise time plugged in to keep the number required manageable.

'Would have to' Ian?

 

I mean, when I walk the tow path I can often see loads of river bank that doesn't have a boat moored against it?

 

I guess if I was to carry on walking down the R. Lee into London there may be areas where there is more boat than bank but then it would be easier to distribute electricity in such densities (again, in theory from a number of points POV).

 

Still just thinking out loud. 😉

[IanD]

1 minute ago, T_i_m said:

'Would have to' Ian?

 

I mean, when I walk the tow path I can often see loads of river bank that doesn't have a boat moored against it?

 

I guess if I was to carry on walking down the R. Lee into London there may be areas where there is more boat than bank but then it would be easier to distribute electricity in such densities (again, in theory from a number of points POV).

 

Still just thinking out loud. 😉

 

Every charging point costs quite a lot of money to build, connect, and maintain, and it's going to be difficult enough to roll enough of these out across the network (who is going to pay? CART? DEFRA? Boaters?) without needing lots more of them still for boaters who can't be bothered to move.

Edited October 5, 2024 by IanD

[T_i_m]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Every charging point costs quite a lot of money to build, connect, and maintain, and it's going to be difficult enough to roll enough of these out across the network (who is going to pay? CART? DEFRA? Boaters?) without needing lots more of them still for boaters who can't be bothered to move.

Who pays for the EV charging points Ian?

 

Don't we (the consumer) generally pay for everything we use, even if it (the service) seems free at the POU?

 

Why would we expect marine charging points to be any different and likely we would actually see suppliers fighting for installation  opportunities and so such benefiting the end user.

 

'Free solar panels and the electricity they produce' whilst the supplier benefits from the FIT (that all other electricity users pay for of course).

Edited October 5, 2024 by T_i_m

[IanD]

36 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Who pays for the EV charging points Ian?

 

Don't we (the consumer) generally pay for everything we use, even if it (the service) seems free at the POU?

 

 

Why would we expect marine charging points to be any different and likey we would actually see suppluers fighting for installation  opportunities and so such benefiting the end user.

 

'Free solar panels and the electricity they produce' whilst the supplier benefits from the FIT (that all other electricity users pay for of course).

 

Suppliers will only fight for installation opportunities if they think they can make money out of it, they're not stupid. That's relatively easy with 35M cars averaging 7000 miles per year each which is about 2MWh per car (at 3.5miles/kWh) or 70GWh total when they're all electric. The EV public charging market is reckoned to be worth about £2000M per year (eventually), but that's still only about £60 per car per year (because most charging will be done at home).

 

Now do the same sums for 35000 boats using 1kWh/mile (assuming they're all electric, like the EV assumption). I don't know what the average distance travelled per year is since many boats don't move at all, but let's optimistically assume 200 miles, which means 200KWh/year per boat. At 50p/kWh that's an average of £100 per year per boat -- which sounds cheap, but most boats hardly ever move. That means the canal/river charger market is worth about £3.5M per year, about 600x smaller than the EV charger market.

 

On top of that boats have a longer lifetime than cars and the rate of electric adoption is tiny in comparison, so it's going to take far longer (at least twice as long) to get to the all-electric nirvana described above.

 

Do you really think that charger suppliers are going to be fighting to get into a market that's over 1000x less attractive to them than EV chargers? Remember, it's all about the money for them... 😉 

 

The only way canal chargers are going to happen is if CART/DEFRA pay for them (yeah, like that's going to happen), or legislation forces the EV charger installers to install them as a condition of their license -- for example making them install 1 canal charger for every 100 EV ones. No private company is going to do it otherwise because it's a PITA and there's no money in it fo them... 😞 

Edited October 5, 2024 by IanD

[T_i_m]

Getting back to things more basic if I may for a sec ...

 

So, when trying to apply some pressure into my mates 'long and thinnish' blue pressure vessel that is 'T'd' into his pumped water system, just after the pump, I could only get on the Schrader valve by feel and then found the pressure gauge on this 'unused' car foot pump didn't work (the very thing we were going to do 'Of course'.). ;-(

 

However, some observations if I may that may mean something to the learned panel.

 

When I was pumping (by hand) it sounded like, initially at least) I was blowing air though water? How common (if at all) is it to have a pressure vessel without bladder or how often for the bladders to fail?

 

I ask without having any direct memory of the construction of said PV, other than a braided flex going from it to the boat CW feed, it being 'loose' in the space (not hard mounted in any way) and a F'inPITA to deal with (like most things in a Nb from my experience so far). ;-(

 

I mean, I think I understand how the air in such a buffer would work and apart from orientation / management issues, it probably not mattering if there was a diaphragm or not?

 

Also, I spoke to a very nice and knowledgeable man (Daniel) at the Xylem pump tech support who mentioned they hadn't sold many of the diaphragms for that particular Jabsco pump, potentially suggesting that it was either pretty durable (or too expensive to bother with over a new pump etc).

 

However, from my understanding of the construction, as long as there is a good water seal between the diaphragm and the valve box (and ignoring any other potential leak sources), for water to get past the diaphragm into the motor bell housing, it would have to come through the diaphragm? I would really need to extending the hoses / wiring and run the pump out where I can examine it closely as it might look like the water is coming out of the main motor casing drain hole, even though the corroding in there suggests it is.

 

It's this pump and scroll down for exploded diagram.

 

It's quite expensive for 'a diaphragm' because there is quite a bit more than just the rubber bit (bearing, wobble plate, moulding etc).

 

*If* it is just the diaphragm, it would be ~1/4 of the price of a replacement pump and the rest of the pump seems to run fine?

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Suppliers will only fight for installation opportunities if they think they can make money out of it, they're not stupid. That's relatively easy with 35M cars averaging 7000 miles per year each which is about 2MWh per car (at 3.5miles/kWh) or 70GWh total when they're all electric. The EV public charging market is reckoned to be worth about £2000M per year (eventually), but that's still only about £60 per car per year (because most charging will be done at home).

 

Now do the same sums for 35000 boats using 1kWh/mile (assuming they're all electric, like the EV assumption). I don't know what the average distance travelled per year is since many boats don't move at all, but let's optimistically assume 200 miles, which means 200KWh/year per boat. At 50p/kWh that's an average of £100 per year per boat -- which sounds cheap, but most boats hardly ever move. That means the canal/river charger market is worth about £3.5M per year, about 600x smaller than the EV charger market.

 

On top of that boats have a longer lifetime than cars and the rate of electric adoption is tiny in comparison, so it's going to take far longer (at least twice as long) to get to the all-electric nirvana described above.

 

Do you really think that charger suppliers are going to be fighting to get into a market that's over 1000x less attractive to them than EV chargers? Remember, it's all about the money for them... 😉 

I respect the sums, thanks. 😉

 

'You can manage what you can measure'. 😉

 

Ok, then it might work a different way with one supplier jumping in and starting that market and then others may follow to take advantage of the pickings.

 

Why is there only one monopolies commission?

[David Mack]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Suppliers will only fight for installation opportunities if they think they can make money out of it, they're not stupid. That's relatively easy with 35M cars averaging 7000 miles per year each which is about 2MWh per car (at 3.5miles/kWh) or 70GWh total when they're all electric. The EV public charging market is reckoned to be worth about £2000M per year (eventually), but that's still only about £60 per car per year (because most charging will be done at home).

 

Now do the same sums for 35000 boats using 1kWh/mile (assuming they're all electric, like the EV assumption). I don't know what the average distance travelled per year is since many boats don't move at all, but let's optimistically assume 200 miles, which means 200KWh/year per boat. At 50p/kWh that's an average of £100 per year per boat -- which sounds cheap, but most boats hardly ever move. That means the canal/river charger market is worth about £3.5M per year, about 600x smaller than the EV charger market.

 

On top of that boats have a longer lifetime than cars and the rate of electric adoption is tiny in comparison, so it's going to take far longer (at least twice as long) to get to the all-electric nirvana described above.

 

Do you really think that charger suppliers are going to be fighting to get into a market that's over 1000x less attractive to them than EV chargers? Remember, it's all about the money for them... 😉 

 

The only way canal chargers are going to happen is if CART/DEFRA pay for them (yeah, like that's going to happen), or legislation forces the EV charger installers to install them as a condition of their license -- for example making them install 1 canal charger for every 100 EV ones. No private company is going to do it otherwise because it's a PITA and there's no money in it fo them... 😞 

And all of that is pretty much equally true whether you are talking about Lithium, LA , Sodium or any other battery technology!

[IanD]

23 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And all of that is pretty much equally true whether you are talking about Lithium, LA , Sodium or any other battery technology!

FTFY 🙂 

 

The key to get technology into niche markets (like canal boats...) is to take advantage of stuff that's been developed (and paid for) by much bigger markets -- for example EVs or off-grid generation/storage, without which we wouldn't have the batteries/motors/controllers/inverters/MPPT controllers/solar panels now being used in boats.

 

Or even the diesels used nowadays, the newer ones (based on Kubota/Mitsubishi/Isuzu...) are all adapted from much bigger markets like diggers -- the older ones (BMC etc) were from cars, or from lifeboats (Bukh).

 

If you want the private sector to provide stuff it's got to make commercial sense for them, and things like canalside chargers (or water points, or many other canal things) simply don't -- they're only going to happen if funded by CART/DEFRA/government (like the rest of the canal infrastructure should be?) or because the suppliers are forced to do it by legislation.

[Gybe Ho]

42 minutes ago, IanD said:

Now do the same sums for 35000 boats using 1kWh/mile...

 

 

Does the 35000 figure include minor craft such as rowing boats?

 

And how many electric propulsion narrowboats are there on the network today, 100 or 200? The CRT should be able to provide the figure based on the number of licenses discounted by 25% for their serial hybrid status.

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

take advantage of stuff that's been developed (and paid for) by much bigger markets

 

 

This is why I am watching many YouTube videos that document the electrical fitout of RVs. Some caution is needed, for example apparently Wago connectors are essential because the alternatives will shake loose. This might be true when driving one's RV over the Rockies but on an English narrowboat?

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

Does the 35000 figure include minor craft such as rowing boats?

 

That is C&RTs figures for licences issued (which includes everything - even canoes)

 

There are some 90,000+ licenced boats on the inland waterways, but, then you are not looking at just 2000 miles of waterways, you are looking at many 1000s of miles from The Norfolk Broads, to the Lake District & Loch Lomond to the River Thames etc etc.

Edited October 5, 2024 by Alan de Enfield