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Interested minds ... (boat electrical systems, the 'Big picture').


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9 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Could / should I fit the new 500A shunt on top of the batteries where it is now but use a short length of cable (or bus strip) the same CSA as the as the Combi to join the -Ve of the shunt to the batteries if I'm putting the Combi though it?

 

I would not because its cables will impede the removal of the battery box cover. I would fix it to the front panel, even though it may mean drilling steel for nuts and bolts.

 

Assuming the lid has sides then you can slot the sides to pass the battery cables through or "drill" the front panel and use rubber/plastic grommets.

 

15 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Can anyone recommend some free wiring diagram software  (Windows or Linux)?

 

I do not use a specialist wiring diagram program. I use a very old Windows Vector drawing program called Designworks or Draw 3, but the makers are long gone. I am now running on Linux under WINE. The reason I like it is that I find it simple, the more modern vector drawing packages seem to have got increasingly complicated with a longer learning time. A Linux package called Drawing looks similar, but it seems to produce bitmaps rather than vector files. Inkscape (Linux) produces Vector files but looks as if it will take a bit longer to learn. I suspect a CAD package is overkill for this job.

 

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38 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Can anyone recommend some free wiring diagram software  (Windows or Linux)?

I use Back to the Drawing Board

Free, easy to use and you can save in various formats.

 

https://apps.microsoft.com/detail/9wzdncrfj861?ocid=webpdpshare

 

 

 

Edited by GUMPY
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13 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I would not because its cables will impede the removal of the battery box cover. I would fix it to the front panel, even though it may mean drilling steel for nuts and bolts.

 

Assuming the lid has sides then you can slot the sides to pass the battery cables through or "drill" the front panel and use rubber/plastic grommets.

 

Have you seen the picture of the battery area Tony? If I was to remote the shunt and master fuse / isolator I would need 'at least' two very large cables (matching those currently on the combi) plus potentially lengthening many others to bring them to the front?

 

Looking online, even short HD cables made up are ~£70?

 

Don't get me wrong, maybe a hinged vertical wooden (Marine ply) panel (that allowed the cables / isolators / fuses VSR's, can move with it as one) allowing easy access to the batteries would possibly be 'ideal' but that's likely to involve more time than I can offer and more cost they may not be willing / able to afford.

 

Advice welcomed of course. 😉

 

Batteries.jpg

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11 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

Looking online, even short HD cables made up are ~£70?

 

First of all I do not recognise HD cables in relation to 12V DC use and secondly 95sq mm (500 amp) extra flexible battery cable costs £26.33/m (12 Volt Planet). I think that you may have looked up something more specialised. I accept that you may need a thicker cable for the inverter to deal with volt drop but I am not sure if we know the inverter rating or run length, only that it is a Multiplus

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

First of all I do not recognise HD cables in relation to 12V DC use and secondly 95sq mm (500 amp) extra flexible battery cable costs £26.33/m (12 Volt Planet). I think that you may have looked up something more specialised. I accept that you may need a thicker cable for the inverter to deal with volt drop but I am not sure if we know the inverter rating or run length, only that it is a Multiplus

Sorry Tony, by 'HD' in this instance I mean 'Heavy Duty', my way of describing the very large cables used by the Combi, rather than most of the other stuff.

 

The price I quoted was for finished cables Tony, crimped / soldered / heatshrunk ends and delivery so likely (given the labour component) more than just buying a length of plain cable.

 

Whilst I do have a couple of crimping tools, I think the largest I can go up to is 70 sq mm on my biggest /  hydraulic one.

 

OOI, some suppliers mentioned 'crimped and soldered' connections. Isn't the issue with soldered connections an increased vulnerability to vibration and work hardening?

 

The Combi is a Victron Phoenix Multi Plus, 12/3000/120 and is just the other side of the bulkhead to the right of the battery tray (so maybe 2m worst case).

Victron 12 3000 120.jpg

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That needs at least 300 amp cable and probably more because of run length.

 

All you can do, is sort it as best you can within the available resources, but I still don't think it is a good idea to mount anything on the battery cover because of it complicating access.

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Just now, Tony Brooks said:

That needs at least 300 amp cable and probably more because of run length.

 

All you can do, is sort it as best you can within the available resources, but I still don't think it is a good idea to mount anything on the battery cover because of it complicating access.

If you look at the (very large dirty red)+Ve cable that goes to the left hand end of the battery (mirroring the -Ve that goes to the right hand end), that could well be long enough to cut down and to insert a Mega fuse and/ or Isolator, if it used no larger than 70 sq mm conductors (max limit on my crimper).

 

There is a simple wooden lid that sits (horizontally) on the top of the battery area but I was talking of adding a vertical wooden panel to the front of the battery box (with it hinged at the bottom) allowing it to fold down to some degree, sufficiently to allow removal of the batteries if required. As long as all the cables ran close to the hinge line I can't see that being an issue mechanically and would provide a larger area to mount stuff?

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7 hours ago, Eeyore said:

Is that a dead spider?, or just some form of "creative" jointing technique? 😎

IMG_0172.jpeg

 

 

That caught my eye too and had me wondering if this boat was once owned by a BT engineer! 

 

 

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

That caught my eye too and had me wondering if this boat was once owned by a BT engineer!

I believe he found the cable had been cut though and he or another joined it back together, obviously not realising a suitable length Cat5 cable from eBay for £1.

 

He mentioned he couldn't find his heatshrink, now has some but just hasn't GotRoundtuit but I'll probably swap the cable for him (I think it joins the Combi to it's remote).

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3 hours ago, MtB said:

That caught my eye too and had me wondering if this boat was once owned by a BT engineer!

As an ex BT engineer I would only do such a thing knowing it wasn't carrying Ethernet (twists all lost) and I think it's only RS445 or summat?

 

Talking of wires, I think the terminals on the NASA BM-1 shunt are 8mm diameter and the new one 10mm so the chances are they won't go on. So I've been ringing around locally to see if I could find a bus bar with at least 1 x 10mm position and also some 8 or 6 mm but nothing, so it's likely to be an eBay / Amazon order.

Edited by T_i_m
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We bench tested the Victron BM today and all seemed to work (charging a spare battery with a std battery charger), except I couldn't seem to connect to it over BT from my laptop but was able to connect to it with his iPhone.

 

It's a shame the display is so small, certainly when compared with the BM-1 it's going to replace.

 

We are now considering how to relay everything, potentially on a new board so that it leaves the top of the batteries clear whilst taking more stuff.

 

Oh, and I tried the Epever program into the Tracer Solar controller and it said it couldn't see the COM: port, (yet the laptop could)? ;-(

 

Edited by T_i_m
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1 hour ago, T_i_m said:

We bench tested the Victron BM today and all seemed to work (charging a spare battery with a std battery charger), except I couldn't seem to connect to it over BT from my laptop but was able to connect to it with his iPhone.

 

It's a shame the display is so small, certainly when compared with the BM-1 it's going to replace.

 

We are now considering how to relay everything, potentially on a new board so that it leaves the top of the batteries clear whilst taking more stuff.

 

Oh, and I tried the Epever program into the Tracer Solar controller and it said it couldn't see the COM: port, (yet the laptop could)? ;-(

 


BMV Bluetooth only works with the smartphone app. If you want to connect to PC it is only via VE.Direct (which is TTL level rs232) and an adaptor.

 

Yes the display is rather small but I rarely look at it, it is so much easier to look at the phone app.

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Just now, nicknorman said:


BMV Bluetooth only works with the smartphone app. If you want to connect to PC it is only via VE.Direct (which is TTL level rs232) and an adaptor.

 

Yes the display is rather small but I rarely look at it, it is so much easier to look at the phone app.

Thanks for that Nick. I couldn't even see the BMV BM via BT on the PC so couldn't even try to connect the PC app to it.

 

Any idea why I couldn't get the laptop to talk to the Tracer, even though I was using a genuine Epever CC-USB-RS485-150U, USB to RJ45 plugged cable?

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9 hours ago, T_i_m said:

Thanks for that Nick. I couldn't even see the BMV BM via BT on the PC so couldn't even try to connect the PC app to it.

 

Any idea why I couldn't get the laptop to talk to the Tracer, even though I was using a genuine Epever CC-USB-RS485-150U, USB to RJ45 plugged cable?

I think the BMV uses BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) which is a packet burst type of link, rather than old fashioned Bluetooth which just created a permanent serial link. Maybe your PC doesn’t support BLE?

 

I’ve never tried to connect a Tracer to a PC since it can easily be configured via the MT50, but there is probably a baud rate issue.

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

I think the BMV uses BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) which is a packet burst type of link, rather than old fashioned Bluetooth which just created a permanent serial link. Maybe your PC doesn’t support BLE?

 

I’ve never tried to connect a Tracer to a PC since it can easily be configured via the MT50, but there is probably a baud rate issue.

In that case would it work on an Ipad or similar?

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

I think the BMV uses BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) which is a packet burst type of link, rather than old fashioned Bluetooth which just created a permanent serial link. Maybe your PC doesn’t support BLE?

 

I’ve never tried to connect a Tracer to a PC since it can easily be configured via the MT50, but there is probably a baud rate issue.

I wonder then if I was to get a USB BLE dongle, the laptop would then 'see' the BMV and if it did, if the PC app would be willing to communicate with it (or do you know that it won't Tony)?

 

Ok on the Tracer. Many of the Youtube reviews I've seen on the Tracer and config suggest the PC version is far easier than even using the MT50 and why I thought I'd check it out (and I'm an PC /IT guy and like doing that sort of thing). 😉 

 

I have been thinking of putting together a 'solar shed' using the smallest / cheapest version of say the Epever solar and Victron inverter / charge controller that allows me to use the same software as on mates Nb.

 

I could run the lights off it but maybe not the Myford ML10 or MIG welder. 😉

 

(I test-removed the BM-1 yesterday, measured the hole and last night designed a matching blanking plate / bezel to allow the BMV to fill the same hole and will 3D print it in a min. I forgot to measure the OD of the retaining ring so I hope it fits).

BM1 to BMV.jpg

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33 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

In that case would it work on an Ipad or similar?

If you mean the BMV, it works on my iPad. It will depend on which version of Bluetooth hardware is on the iPad, possibly much older iPads would’t work.

19 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

I wonder then if I was to get a USB BLE dongle, the laptop would then 'see' the BMV and if it did, if the PC app would be willing to communicate with it (or do you know that it won't Tony)?

 

Nick. But no I don’t know. I would check which version of Bluetooth your laptop currently has. BLE came in with Bluetooth 4.0. If your laptop is at that or higher spec, I don’t think adding another interface would help.

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55 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

If you mean the BMV, it works on my iPad. It will depend on which version of Bluetooth hardware is on the iPad, possibly much older iPads would’t work.

Nick. But no I don’t know. I would check which version of Bluetooth your laptop currently has. BLE came in with Bluetooth 4.0. If your laptop is at that or higher spec, I don’t think adding another interface would help.

Doh, sorry Nick. ;-(

 

I had a quick look at the laptop and am not sure how to tell what BT version it's running (it does mention a BT LE Enumerator?) but I just updated the WiFi, BT and Video drivers (Intel Util) so at least that would give it the best chance.

 

I'm also just d/l the latest Mint ready to stick on a USB stick and will likely install it on there dual boot as it can be useful for some stuff.

 

I am probably going to make a cable to talk to the Victron stuff as their cable is quite expensive.

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1 hour ago, T_i_m said:

wonder then if I was to get a USB BLE dongle, the laptop would then 'see' the BMV and if it did, if the PC app would be willing to communicate with it (or do you know that it won't Tony)?

 

 

Haven't a clue, been out of practical work for too long now, so leave all this stuff to those who like boys toys. Personally I can see no good reason for it, but then I am probably a Luddite in respect of bus systems like Canbus and Bluetooth for remote displays if tee is a hard-wired method of doing the same thing.

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Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

Haven't a clue, been out of practical work for too long now, so leave all this stuff to those who like boys toys. Personally I can see no good reason for it, but then I am probably a Luddite in respect of bus systems like Canbus and Bluetooth for remote displays if tee is a hard-wired method of doing the same thing.

It's whatever works for you Tony. 😉

 

Personally I like the 'You can manage what you can measure' and the idea of long term logging of say a solar and / or associated battery system is of interest to me.

 

I'm keen to get this BMV system installed for my friend so that we can move the combi and domestic alternator onto it and so (hopefully) better measure the system activity and battery health.

 

Like he feels that the combi, even when idle draws sufficient energy to warrant ensuring it's turned off if not needed?

 

Apparently he has an Android tablet somewhere and assuming the BT works with the BMV and it's within range, that might make a nice status monitor, especially after / when changing things.

 

 

What was quite cool was after connecting his phone to the BMV, it updated the firmware twice, first from v2.36 to 2.50 then 4.09 to 4.16?

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5 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I’ve never tried to connect a Tracer to a PC since it can easily be configured via the MT50, but there is probably a baud rate issue.

You could be right but it didn't really even seem to try, just complaining about the COM: port (that was clearly COM3: and was set to that in their settings. The default baud rate was 19.2k but I tried 9600 with no success. I'm hoping it's covered in the manual, unless it's auto configuring?

 

Takes me back to breakout boxes and start, stop and parity bits. 😉

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2 hours ago, T_i_m said:

 

I had a quick look at the laptop and am not sure how to tell what BT version it's running (it does mention a BT LE Enumerator?) but I just updated the WiFi, BT and Video drivers (Intel Util) so at least that would give it the best chance.

 

In device manager, find Bluetooth and expand, select the item to do with "wireless", in my case it says "Intel(R) Wireless Bluetooth(R)". Right click, properties, and click the Advanced tab. Alongside firmware version is the LMP number. LMP 6 or greater should have BLE.

3 minutes ago, T_i_m said:

You could be right but it didn't really even seem to try, just complaining about the COM: port (that was clearly COM3: and was set to that in their settings. The default baud rate was 19.2k but I tried 9600 with no success. I'm hoping it's covered in the manual, unless it's auto configuring?

 

Takes me back to breakout boxes and start, stop and parity bits. 😉

The internet suggests that the default might be 115200.

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21 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

In device manager, find Bluetooth and expand, select the item to do with "wireless", in my case it says "Intel(R) Wireless Bluetooth(R)". Right click, properties, and click the Advanced tab. Alongside firmware version is the LMP number. LMP 6 or greater should have BLE.

The internet suggests that the default might be 115200.

Thanks for checking and that may well have been what it was Nick (I only tried it quickly to see if it would work).

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2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

In device manager, find Bluetooth and expand, select the item to do with "wireless", in my case it says "Intel(R) Wireless Bluetooth(R)". Right click, properties, and click the Advanced tab. Alongside firmware version is the LMP number. LMP 6 or greater should have BLE.

Thanks very much Nick. I had actually been there but missed the relevance of LMP. It's 11.858 OOI.

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