Buying new domestic batteries

[BlueStringPudding]

It's been a while since I bought new batteries. But my current domestics (4 × 110Ah, 12v, flooded) are deceased. I'm considering getting some sort of maintenance-free batteries for a change. I've got solar via MPPT controller, plus I charge via running the engine. But to be honest, I don't look after them.

 

What type/brand of batteries do you guys and gals recommend? Also, any recommendations for suppliers please? 

 

Thanks 😊

[Paul C]

Maintenance free = unmaintainable

 

You may as well get flooded lead-acid batteries, at least if there is a later issue you have a hope of fixing them/topping them up instead of having to bin them and get new ones.

 

Just be sure the terminals are the right orientation and/or you can reach of modify the connections.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, BlueStringPudding said:

It's been a while since I bought new batteries. But my current domestics (4 × 110Ah, 12v, flooded) are deceased. I'm considering getting some sort of maintenance-free batteries for a change. I've got solar via MPPT controller, plus I charge via running the engine. But to be honest, I don't look after them.

 

What type/brand of batteries do you guys and gals recommend? Also, any recommendations for suppliers please? 

 

Thanks 😊

 

The "I don't look after them" bit makes me think that more flooded lead acids with lead calcium plates would do you well. Either sealed or   with cell caps. Modern wet batteries seem to have extra liquid capacity than older designs so that, with the reduced gassing lead calcium is likely to give, means there will be very little, if any, maintenance to do. Just remember that you can wreck an expensive lead acid battery almost as easily as a cheap one, but the more expensive ones will have more cyclic life. However, on batteries that are not looked after very well then sulphation is likely to kill them before they run out of cyclic life. I used Advanced Battery Supplies for the ones I bought., but there are other online companies. Why.online - because they are likely to have a higher turnover of stock, so he batteries have less chance to sulphate while waiting for a customer.

[system 4-50]

Maintenance Free & Tayna.  When did you last put extra distilled water in your car battery?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

Maintenance Free & Tayna.  When did you last put extra distilled water in your car battery?

 

 

Mind you, csr batteries need replacing every few years despite having just about the easiest possible life for a LA battery. 

 

On the other hand the AGM batt in my car is 11 years old now and ready for replacement soon! 

[Tracy D'arth]

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Mind you, csr batteries need replacing every few years despite having just about the easiest possible life for a LA battery. 

 

On the other hand the AGM batt in my car is 11 years old now and ready for replacement soon! 

Garbage, my car battery, wet LA sealed, is 13 years old and fine.

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The "I don't look after them" bit makes me think that more flooded lead acids with lead calcium plates would do you well. Either sealed or   with cell caps. Modern wet batteries seem to have extra liquid capacity than older designs so that, with the reduced gassing lead calcium is likely to give, means there will be very little, if any, maintenance to do. Just remember that you can wreck an expensive lead acid battery almost as easily as a cheap one, but the more expensive ones will have more cyclic life. However, on batteries that are not looked after very well then sulphation is likely to kill them before they run out of cyclic life. I used Advanced Battery Supplies for the ones I bought., but there are other online companies. Why.online - because they are likely to have a higher turnover of stock, so he batteries have less chance to sulphate while waiting for a customer.

Agreed, if you don't look after them, buy the cheapest sealed lead acid batteries you can find on ebay.

I have used cheap Probat for many years and never had a sudden failure and always good life from them.

I gave up looking at top up batteries 20 years ago, too much hassle but I do make sure that they are full charged as many times as practical.

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Garbage, my car battery, wet LA sealed, is 13 years old and fine.

 

Excellent, thanks. Proof that all car batteries last 13 years then. 

[Tracy D'arth]

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Just telling it like it is.  The battery is original Taiwan.

Your proof that they only last " a few years" is obviously not a truism.

[Tony Brooks]

21 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Just telling it like it is.  The battery is original Taiwan.

Your proof that they only last " a few years" is obviously not a truism.

 

Well, I think it probably was true when cars had dynamos, so it seems a kind of folk memory. My care battery lasted well over 10 years, probably 14 or 15 before lock down killed it (lack of regular charging).

[Rob-M]

I have some Numax Sealed LAs from Tayna almost 11 years ago.  I don't do anything to them, never left them permanently on charge although for the last years do now have solar which I feel has extended their life.  When away from our mooring I have an inverter running all day for internet router and run my laptop off a mains charger plus we have a 12v fridge on 24*7 and on an evening either gave a 240v DAB radio or TV and Roku Stream bar on.

[Momac]

1. 

[Tracy D'arth]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301581095653?

110Ah

£79.99 for 1    £75.99 each for 4 or more, delivered free.  Over 40500 sold so fresh as daisies.

[GUMPY]

17 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301581095653?

110Ah

£79.99 for 1    £75.99 each for 4 or more, delivered free.  Over 40500 sold so fresh as daisies.

They are only 110Ah at the C100 discharge rate 

80Ah at the more normally quoted C20 rate.............

 

[Tony Brooks]

5 hours ago, GUMPY said:

They are only 110Ah at the C100 discharge rate 

80Ah at the more normally quoted C20 rate.............

 

and they don't quote the cyclic life to depth of discharge. Sorry, but typical Ebay lack of information or deliberately misleading information for all but the eagle eyed.

Edited May 5 by Tony Brooks

[cuthound]

On 04/05/2024 at 18:11, MtB said:

 

Excellent, thanks. Proof that all car batteries last 13 years then. 

 

I feel cheated, mine only lasted 9 and a half years!

 

Mind you the Lifeline AGM's (very expensive batteries from the US of A) on the boat are now over 16 years old now and still (just about serviceable. They are either on charge when the boat is at its mooring or charged by the alternator ehen out and about because we cruise for about 6 hours every day.

[BlueStringPudding]

On 05/05/2024 at 15:48, Tony Brooks said:

and they don't quote the cyclic life to depth of discharge. Sorry, but typical Ebay lack of information or deliberately misleading information for all but the eagle eyed.

 

Please can you explain what are suitable cyclic depth/c100 etc ratings? I've no idea what these things are. 🤔

Thanks

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

 

Please can you explain what are suitable cyclic depth/c100 etc ratings? I've no idea what these things are. 🤔

Thanks

 

In laymanspeke, if you discharge a battery quickly you'll get less energy out of it than if you discharge it slowly over a longer period. 

 

Therefore, battery capacity is not a fixed thing.

 

So if you want to make the low capacity batteries you are selling look higher in capacity than they really are, quote their capacity at a lower discharge rate than all your competitors. 

 

Others will be along soon to pick holes/elaborate on this  

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

 

Please can you explain what are suitable cyclic depth/c100 etc ratings? I've no idea what these things are. 🤔

Thanks

 

The faster you discharge a lead acid battery, the less electricity it will provide, it seems odd, but please just accept it. When I started in a battery shop the rate at which the batteries were discharged was full to flat in 10 hours, while batteries for electric fork lifts etc were often discharged from full to flat in 5 hours, but for many years now our sort of batteries have been test discharged from full to flat over 20 hours. Some "wide boys" quote the figure for the full to flat discharge over 100 hours. So there we have C10, C5, C20 and C100 discharge times.

 

Now, if the faster the battery is discharged the less electricity it will provide is true, and it more or less is, then a C5 rating for a given battery will give fewer Amp hours than the same battery discharged at C20, while the C100 rating will give more Ah. Hence, the Ebay battery claiming 110Ah @ C100 is actually an 80Ah battery as far as most people are concerned.

 

The designed cyclic life is different, It basically tells you how many times the battery can be taken for fully charged down to a specified degree of discharge, which will rarely be 100% discharged. Often it will be something like 150 cycles to 45% charged, cheaper batteries often quote fewer cycles and  higher maximum discharge, while expensive ones far more cycles to a greater depth of discharge.

 

At this point it is important to note that arguably the majority of boat batteries die because they have lost capacity to sulphation, not because they have run out of cyclic life, so while avoiding really cheap batteries may be wise, spending a lot is probably unwise unless you have battery monitoring, know how to use it, and keep them as fully charged as possible.

 

Also note that the advice to rarely discharge below about 50% is an attempt to use up less cyclic life. As a very poor illustration using a mythical battery specified as 200 cycles to 100% discharge, if you only discharge it to 50% you sortof double the number of cycles available to you.

 

So, to avoid comparing apples with oranges, always seek the Ah at the 20 hour rate (C20).

 

To maximise life choose, within your budget, a battery with the greatest number of cycles to the greatest depth of discharge, but remember that effort will be to no avail if you don't keep it as fully charged as reasonably possible for as long as possible.

 

I hope that is clear enough, come back if not.

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

In laymanspeke, if you discharge a battery quickly you'll get less energy out of it than if you discharge it slowly over a longer period. 

 

Therefore, battery capacity is not a fixed thing.

 

So if you want to make the low capacity batteries you are selling look higher in capacity than they really are, quote their capacity at a lower discharge rate than all your competitors. 

 

Others will be along soon to pick holes/elaborate on this  

 

 

 

 

 

Not me Mike, seems fine.

[Eeyore]

3 hours ago, BlueStringPudding said:

 

Please can you explain what are suitable cyclic depth/c100 etc ratings? I've no idea what these things are. 🤔

Thanks

Everything @MtB and @Tony Brooks said; but really its just magic 😎 

[BlueStringPudding]

It sounded so simple. 😟  But I can't find reference to c20 (most online shops don't seem to state it) + good Ah (eg 110 ish not merely 80 ) + unsealed (almost all are sealed)  + correct terminal configuration + correct max size + it can be delivered.

 

Nearly everything is sealed or just doesn't state the info I need. The Advanced Batteries website search function doesn't work and trawling through by category seems to show just sealed batteries. Tayna also lacks the info I need. This is too confusing. 

 

Please can anyone recommend a specific online retailer of Unsealed, 110Ah ish (at c20) leisure batteries? Then I can trawl through the terminal configurations and dimensions myself to find the right ones? 

 

Thanks 

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

It sounded so simple. 😟  But I can't find reference to c20 (most online shops don't seem to state it) + good Ah (eg 110 ish not merely 80 ) + unsealed (almost all are sealed)  + correct terminal configuration + correct max size + it can be delivered.

 

Nearly everything is sealed or just doesn't state the info I need. The Advanced Batteries website search function doesn't work and trawling through by category seems to show just sealed batteries. Tayna also lacks the info I need. This is too confusing. 

 

Please can anyone recommend a specific online retailer of Unsealed, 110Ah ish (at c20) leisure batteries? Then I can trawl through the terminal configurations and dimensions myself to find the right ones? 

 

Thanks 

 

It seems that sealed lead-calcium batteries have enough liquid in them so they do not need topping up during their life at all typical alternator voltages, so do't worry too much about them being sealed. Don't fret over 110Ah, I very much doubt that yo will notice the difference with 105Ah.

 

A long-established non Ebay type battery dealer is likely to use the C20 rate, it is the wide boys who don't, but you can always ring and ask them.

Edited Sunday at 17:24 by Tony Brooks

[BlueStringPudding]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It seems that sealed lead-calcium batteries have enough liquid in them so they do not need topping up during their life at all typical alternator voltages, so do't worry too much about them being sealed.

 

Okay. Thanks. So if I go back to the Advanced Battery supplies website, how can I tell if they've quoted their Ah at c20 or c100 or c-anything else? 

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, BlueStringPudding said:

 

Okay. Thanks. So if I go back to the Advanced Battery supplies website, how can I tell if they've quoted their Ah at c20 or c100 or c-anything else? 

 

I answered that in my edit above. Almost certainly C20.

[MtB]

Another site often recommended on here is Tayna. High sales and therefore turnover of stock so you shouldn't be sent batts that have been sitting on a pallet uncharged for weeks or months. And they quote both C20 and C100 rates.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/caravan/

 

 

 

[Sea Dog]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

It seems that sealed lead-calcium batteries have enough liquid in them so they do not need topping up during their life at all typical alternator voltages, so do't worry too much about them being sealed.

Also some have labyrinth breathers which collect and recycle any vapour given off during recharging, so very little escapes.