Canal boats’ green image goes up in smoke

[Alan de Enfield]

Move forward a couple of months and the ban on wood burning stoves (in new builds) is announced in Scotland:

 

The Scottish National Party has been accused of launching an attack on rural Scotland following a ban on wood-burning stoves in new homes.

Housebuilders cannot install "polluting heating systems, which include log burners, following the introduction of new regulations to tackle climate change.

 

Alasdair MacMillan, who runs an Argyll-based architecture and planning company, described the changes as "seismic".

Meanwhile Douglas Lumsden, an energy spokesman for the Scottish Tories, said: "It is vital that Scotland achieves net zero and cut emissions - but banning heating systems that people rely on is not the right way to go about it.

"Many people living in rural, off-grid areas rely on wood-burning stoves to heat their houses, especially in emergencies. This ban would leave them without any way to heat their homes.

"Yet again, the SNP-Green Government are showing their contempt for rural Scotland, ploughing ahead with rash ideas without considering the significant impact on individuals and their lives."

 

The move, which came into force at the start of this month, has raised concerns among pensioners and remote Highland communities relying on off-grid forms of heating.

 

The rest of the article :

SNP quietly bans popular item in green crackdown with pensioners in firing line (msn.com)

 

 

My Son (up in the highlands) actually burns peat, it seems every crofter has a 'right' to dig and burn peat) no doubt this will be banned in any new builds.

[IanD]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Move forward a couple of months and the ban on wood burning stoves (in new builds) is announced in Scotland:

 

The Scottish National Party has been accused of launching an attack on rural Scotland following a ban on wood-burning stoves in new homes.

Housebuilders cannot install "polluting heating systems, which include log burners, following the introduction of new regulations to tackle climate change.

 

Alasdair MacMillan, who runs an Argyll-based architecture and planning company, described the changes as "seismic".

Meanwhile Douglas Lumsden, an energy spokesman for the Scottish Tories, said: "It is vital that Scotland achieves net zero and cut emissions - but banning heating systems that people rely on is not the right way to go about it.

"Many people living in rural, off-grid areas rely on wood-burning stoves to heat their houses, especially in emergencies. This ban would leave them without any way to heat their homes.

"Yet again, the SNP-Green Government are showing their contempt for rural Scotland, ploughing ahead with rash ideas without considering the significant impact on individuals and their lives."

 

The move, which came into force at the start of this month, has raised concerns among pensioners and remote Highland communities relying on off-grid forms of heating.

 

The rest of the article :

SNP quietly bans popular item in green crackdown with pensioners in firing line (msn.com)

 

 

My Son (up in the highlands) actually burns peat, it seems every crofter has a 'right' to dig and burn peat) no doubt this will be banned in any new builds.

 

This policy -- as introduced in Scotland, if the reports are correct -- is also idiotic... 😞

 

The problem with wood-burning stoves is not climate change (CO2 emissions) but PM2.5 particulate emissions in densely-populated urban areas, where they are estimated to be responsible for something like 6000 deaths per year -- hence the (justifiable) moves to ban them *in urban areas*, especially since the vast majority there are lifestyle accessories not essential heating.

 

(unfortunately this will also hit boaters who moor in towns and cities, they'll have to switch from wood to smokeless fuel).

 

The situation is very different in sparsely-populated rural areas, where the wood is likely to be locally grown (and replanted, so it's renewable) *and PM2.5 pollution is not a problem*. There is no good reason to ban woodburners in such areas, whether in houses or on boats.

Edited April 10 by IanD

[Momac]

Seems like a pointless regulation . While a wood burner may not be fitted in a new build home there is law against fitting a wood burner in an existing home.

 

[Bristolfashion]

The use of HVOs (which claim a 90% reduction in CO2) is certainly an interesting development for "greening" the diesel engine.

 

One of the problems of deciding how green the lifestyle is is comparing like for like. How do we include transport, holidays etc as well as the usual gas,diesel & electricity? Do we, as a couple, compare ourselves to the average UK household, the average UK 2 person household or some theoretical lifestyle that we'd live in a house?

 

I wonder if, in highly populated areas concerned about pollutants, more compulsory shore power is an answer - we're moored in the centre of a city with pollution issues and a ULEZ zone, it would seem churlish to run a diesel engine or a wood burner as there is shore power available.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Bristolfashion said:

I wonder if, in highly populated areas concerned about pollutants, more compulsory shore power is an answer - we're moored in the centre of a city with pollution issues and a ULEZ zone, it would seem churlish to run a diesel engine or a wood burner as there is shore power available.

And is there sufficient energy to run a heating system in a Narrowboat or only 3Kw ish?

[GUMPY]

9 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

And is there sufficient energy to run a heating system in a Narrowboat or only 3Kw ish?

You generally only need 5kW to run a  heat pump and heat a house so 3kW would be enough to run a heat pump to keep a boat warm.🤔

[peterboat]

On 24/02/2024 at 13:47, mrsmelly said:

I have and still use a proper cast iron frying pan, it's better than so called non stick. It's heavy and has been in constant use since 1945. It was a wedding present for my parents. Mainly used on a proper old stove but last forty years ISH on a gas stove. You simply cannot buy stuff like this in 2024.

My ex wife threw my mums away! It was my granny's before her. She did it as a deliberate get at me, so annoying as things really didn't stick to it

12 hours ago, Bristolfashion said:

The use of HVOs (which claim a 90% reduction in CO2) is certainly an interesting development for "greening" the diesel engine.

 

One of the problems of deciding how green the lifestyle is is comparing like for like. How do we include transport, holidays etc as well as the usual gas,diesel & electricity? Do we, as a couple, compare ourselves to the average UK household, the average UK 2 person household or some theoretical lifestyle that we'd live in a house?

 

I wonder if, in highly populated areas concerned about pollutants, more compulsory shore power is an answer - we're moored in the centre of a city with pollution issues and a ULEZ zone, it would seem churlish to run a diesel engine or a wood burner as there is shore power available.

HVO is green at all, its mostly made from palm oil grown on land that was once rainforest. So its responsible for humans and animal's being killed or made homeless, its transport is pollution heavy, it has no use unless it can be proven to be made from real waste oils, which doubtful to say the least. McDonald's runs its lorries on real biodiesel from its restaurants so it's real waste oil being used

[Jen-in-Wellies]

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

McDonald's runs its lorries on real biodiesel from its restaurants so it's real waste oil being used

The rest of the oil is used to clog up its customers arteries. 🍔

[IanD]

1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

You generally only need 5kW to run a  heat pump and heat a house so 3kW would be enough to run a heat pump to keep a boat warm.🤔

Heat pumps big enough for boats (e.g. Frigomar) only use about 1kW flat out and throttle down to about 200W at lower outputs.

[magnetman]

Being able to create fire by burning wood is a very basic human skill. It goes back an awful long way. One could describe it as a foundation of human civilisation. Start messing about with the foundations and you could get serious unintended consequences. 

 

It makes sense to not have ridiculous smoke in urban areas but over time these policies will spread and eventually people won't be allowed to have fires. 

 

If that happens then things will go pear shaped. 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

11 hours ago, magnetman said:

Being able to create fire by burning wood is a very basic human skill. It goes back an awful long way. One could describe it as a foundation of human civilisation. Start messing about with the foundations and you could get serious unintended consequences. 

 

It makes sense to not have ridiculous smoke in urban areas but over time these policies will spread and eventually people won't be allowed to have fires. 

 

If that happens then things will go pear shaped. 

 

 

Hunting mammoths and living in caves are also basic human skills, but not many of us do that any more either.

I'm a Morlock, so I do live underground, but hunt Eloi, instead of mammoths. Cooking them is with an air fryer these days, not over wood.

[blackrose]

On 24/02/2024 at 11:11, DaveP said:

I did a little work on this a couple of years ago

 

My annual usage - continuous cruiser, full-time liveaboard (one plus partner about 50%).

Electricity - 360 kwh (90% solar, rest by-product of engine whilst moving)

Gas - 1,200 kwh (7ish 13kg propane bottles)

Coal -  7,200 kwh (32ish bags of smokeless)

Diesel - 3,600 kwh (360ish litres)

 

Average UK house (from some govt website, can't remember which one)

Electricty - 3,000 kwh

Gas - 12,000 kwh

 

So the boat's not too far off the house, especially for heating, presumably because of the crap insulation/stove inefficency/infinite heat sink underneath.  But the diesel isn't directly comparable to anything really due to differing lifestyles and transport needs....

 

In the couple of years since I did that calculation, I've almost halved the gas usage by switching to lithium batteries and increasing my solar output/usage by 150kwh - which also shows how inefficient gas cookers are compared to induction hobs.

 

As part of your calculations did you factor in that the average house tends to shelter more people than the average narrowboat? I'm not sure why this important point is often missed. In absolute terms a house may well have a greater environmental impact than a boat because it's a larger structure that uses more energy to support more people, but if per capita data is used as it should be, then the average house will generally have a much lower environmental impact.

[DaveP]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

As part of your calculations did you factor in that the average house tends to shelter more people than the average narrowboat? I'm not sure why this important point is often missed. In absolute terms a house may well have a greater environmental impact than a boat because it's a larger structure that uses more energy to support more people, but if per capita data is used as it should be, then the average house will generally have a much lower environmental impact.

No - that's why I noted the no. of people aboard.  I'm on the side that boat life is not inherently lower impact than house dwelling; but there are important considerations that haven't been touched on in this thread, including embedded energy in creating the structures, and the environment in which they're placed....

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

Heat pumps big enough for boats (e.g. Frigomar) only use about 1kW flat out and throttle down to about 200W at lower outputs.

I don't expect that will become common until all boats are electrically powered  and charging points are widely available 

[IanD]

3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I don't expect that will become common until all boats are electrically powered  and charging points are widely available 

Indeed. Don't hold your breath waiting though... 😉

Edited April 16 by IanD

[TheBiscuits]

10 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I'm a Morlock, so I do live underground, but hunt Eloi, instead of mammoths.

 

Lack of planning. 

 

Mammoth for main course, Eloi for dessert 😁