Alternators and instrument panels

[Mark R]

Hi all,

 

Firstly a big thank you to all who offered advice regarding my alternator issues. Turns out that after a bit of fault finding with a newly purchased clamp meter, it was the alternator that was duff. I replaced this and all is now good. I noticed that the new alternator has a 'W' terminal which I assume means I can fit a tachometer to it. This got me thinking about my control panel which is a little old looking (but still works).

 

Are instrument panel gauges specific to the engine to which they are attached? I'd seen this one on eBay, which looked somewhat cheaper than ones specifically for a BMC engine, all be it possibly too 'bling' for my boat...

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225480431515?chn=ps&_ul=GB&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1nezDbXIoTzW6gwYA9k2OVQ0&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=225480431515&targetid=1816181028139&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9046696&poi=&campaignid=19697487301&mkgroupid=147555425033&rlsatarget=aud-1657461039788:pla-1816181028139&abcId=9302158&merchantid=232684032&gclid=CjwKCAiAiP2tBhBXEiwACslfnu1TRW0NCRKSPwyM4_4nmpkLq8K3AfaD_q2F3sjSKwhqZE31xgojuhoCCwQQAvD_BwE

 

I know a tachometer is probably not that important and the fuel gauge wouldn't be connected but would it be feasible to install it otherwise? I've got a feeling that the oil pressure gauge would need to be paired to the sender?

 

Mark

[nicknorman]

Instrument panel gauges are not really specific to the engine they are attached to but they are specific to the senders that are attached to the engine for the oil pressure and coolant temperature. That said, the description does imply that this panel can be configured to suit a variety of senders. Ditto the tacho would have to be adjusted to match the pulley ratio and number of pole pairs on the alternator.

 

So it would probably work, but it is hard to know the quality and robustness of the panel without seeing it in the flesh. And what about glow plug heaters, there doesn’t seem to be provision for that?

[Mark R]

I'm assuming the quality might not be al that great on the one I linked to, it was more used as an example. Would I be right in thinking the 'heat' position on ignition of the purpose built narrowboat panels is for glow plug heaters?

[nicknorman]

8 minutes ago, Mark R said:

I'm assuming the quality might not be al that great on the one I linked to, it was more used as an example. Would I be right in thinking the 'heat' position on ignition of the purpose built narrowboat panels is for glow plug heaters?

Yes the heat position is for the glow plug heaters. Not all engines with glow plug heaters have a separate heat position though - eg some Listers have a timed relay such that the glow plugs come on automatically when the ignition is turned on, and go off when the timed relay opens, thus making it "transparent" to the user.

 

On your first comment just be aware that if you do go for a generic panel, you need to be confident that the gauges match with the senders on the engine, either because they are directly compatible, or because the gauges are configurable.

[Tony Brooks]

To add to Nicks replies. There are two resistance standards for sender units, US & European. If you use the wrong sender and gauge combination, the gauges will either read about half what they should or about twice (very roughly).  A further complication is that the size and threads on the senders are usually different so may require adapters.

 

The BMCs typically us European type senders and gauges, while seeing it is an Ebay special I would expect the Far Eastern sourced items to tend towards US standards.

 

Having done a quick read of the specs I think that there is a good chance that the talk about being adjustable probably only refers to the rev counter, just like the vast majority, if not all, alternator driven rev counters.

[jonathanA]

odd that the advert doesn't mention whether the senders are included or not.  looking at the picture of the rear they look like generic 52mm gauges, so you might have to take a punt on getting the matching senders (usually only £5-10 on ebay for a gauge and sender) if the existing ones on your engine don't match.  not clear to me with that particular ad whether its 12V or 24V.  

 

you could buy a key switch, tacho  3 or 4 guages and senders then you have to fit them to something and work out how to wire up a buzzer (diodes needed) , couple of lamps ....   so it doesn't look too bad an option, but yes the quality will be of the usual Chinese standard and the 'manual' will be indicative rather than comprehensive... (or comprehensible). 

 

there was a thread about someone who wanted a replacement lister (I think) panel and they found a uk company who made panels to your spec or 'copies' of existing.   can't remember the name of the uk company, but they may be worth a try. 

 

ETA - Dragon marine systems  was the company name - personally I thought them a bit pricey but you get what you pay for... 

 

Edited February 5 by jonathanA
add co. name

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, jonathanA said:

ou could buy a key switch, tacho  3 or 4 guages and senders then you have to fit them to something and work out how to wire up a buzzer (diodes needed) , couple of lamps ....   so it doesn't look too bad an option

 

Black polycarbonate sheet can look nice as an instrument panel.

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Black polycarbonate sheet can look nice as an instrument panel.

 

I've just done this and it went quite well. I used black perspex purchased cut to size from eBay, maybe polycarb would have been better.

I put a chamfer on the edge using a router table so that it matches the Beta panel, and cut 52mm holes with a hole saw in a pillar drill.

I think some companies will even print some words if you want to be really posh.

 

[Mark R]

Great advice, I've kind of fallen down a wormhole with it now and thinking of borrowing a laser engraver and making my own one. Does anyone know what the material of a typical panel is made of?

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Mark R said:

Great advice, I've kind of fallen down a wormhole with it now and thinking of borrowing a laser engraver and making my own one. Does anyone know what the material of a typical panel is made of?

Traffolyte. A plastic laminate with usually 3 layers where the center layer is a different colour to the other 2.

Or you can engrave plain plastic or metal and infill the engraving with paint.

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Traffolyte. A plastic laminate with usually 3 layers where the center layer is a different colour to the other 2.

Or you can engrave plain plastic or metal and infill the engraving with paint.

Not so easy to get hold of, but Traffolyte is the way to go, I used perspex to match the Beta panel but my new panel is to replace the old Adverc DCM which was done in Traffolite and looked very good.

[Midnight]

On 04/02/2024 at 22:44, nicknorman said:

..........Ditto the tacho would have to be adjusted to match the pulley ratio and number of pole pairs on the alternator.......

 

Oh that's got me thinking. The pulley wheel on the original Iskra 95amp alternator on my Beta 43 was 80mm. The disastrous Mastervolt Alternator had a much larger pulley, probably 100mm. The Prestolite pulley was 60mm. Does this mean unless the pulley wheel is 80mm the rev counter will give a false reading?

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Midnight

[nicknorman]

9 minutes ago, Midnight said:

 

Oh that's got me thinking. The pulley wheel on the original Iskra 95amp alternator on my Beta 43 was 80mm. The disastrous Mastervolt Alternator had a much larger pulley, probably 100mm. The Prestolite pulley was 60mm. Does this mean unless the pulley wheel is 80mm the rev counter will give a false reading?

 

 

 

Because there are so many possible combinations of pulley sizes on engines and alternators, just about every tacho can be adjusted to suit the pulley ratio - it wouldn't be economical to manufacture different tachos to suit all these combinations.

[Midnight]

13 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

Because there are so many possible combinations of pulley sizes on engines and alternators, just about every tacho can be adjusted to suit the pulley ratio - it wouldn't be economical to manufacture different tachos to suit all these combinations.

So does that mean when I get the new Mahle alternator I will have to fit the original 80mm pulley from the Iskra so that the Beta tacho shows the correct revs. Is it possible to DIY adjust the tacho and how?

[dmr]

There will be one or two adjustments on the back of the tacho, possibly a little rotary switch (screwdriver operated) to select the number of cylinders, then a fine adjustment (again a scredriver slot) to exactly set the revs. Only trouble is that you need an independant way of measuring revs to make the adjustment accurately, you should be able to get a app for your phone to do this..

[Midnight]

32 minutes ago, dmr said:

There will be one or two adjustments on the back of the tacho, possibly a little rotary switch (screwdriver operated) to select the number of cylinders, then a fine adjustment (again a scredriver slot) to exactly set the revs. Only trouble is that you need an independant way of measuring revs to make the adjustment accurately, you should be able to get a app for your phone to do this..

Thank you  @dmr & @nicknorman     opened up a new world. I've downloaded a strobe app for my phone just need to get down to the boat to play with it.

 

UPDATE 

just checked the Beta panel wiring diagram and it looks to me like the tacho is driven by the starter battery alternator. Never mind, it's good to expand one's knowledge even at my age.

Edited February 7 by Midnight

[Rincewind]

5 hours ago, Mark R said:

Does anyone know what the material of a typical panel is made of?

 

I have used this material in the past.  Not cheap, but rigid and looks smart.

Nor am I advocating this supplier, just indicating what is available out there..... You should be able to get smaller sizes / amounts if you shop around.

 

https://plasticsheetsshop.co.uk/aluminium-composite-panels/3mm/

[David Mack]

14 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Traffolyte. A plastic laminate with usually 3 layers where the center layer is a different colour to the other 2.

There are companies online that will engrave Traffolyte to your own design if you can supply the artwork. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

22 minutes ago, David Mack said:

There are companies online that will engrave Traffolyte to your own design if you can supply the artwork. 

If you live in, or near a reasonably large town, or a city, there will likely be one, or more companies making custom control panels that you can visit in person, with your artwork. I've done this for a couple of friends boats, upgrading old and tired control panels.

An out of focus pic of one of them being wired up. Aluminium, rather than Traffolyte.