How many more people are moving onto the canals?

[Mad Harold]

Every time I switch my phone on there is a headline from some newspaper or other with yet another person "living the dream".

Boaty forums on Facebook have numerous questions about buying a boat and living aboard.A recent one I saw was from a young Frenchman who wanted advice about buying and living on a rather knackered looking Dawncraft, because he said living on canals in France was difficult.

He was getting lots of encouragement from other posters and I replied suggesting that the boat he posted a photo of was in a dreadful state and I asked if he knew about insurance,BSC,licence and cruising rules.He replied that he had a friend who was talking him through these things.I got the strong impression that he was simply going to moor up somewhere and 'sit it out' as long as possible.

This is only one of many people doing this, as well as the numbers doing it 'legit'.

Linear housing estate or towpath shanty towns?

[blackrose]

Yes, it's called an overpopulated country and a housing crisis. It shouldn't really be news to anyone with any experience of boating that the waterways are becoming increasingly overcrowded.

Edited November 18, 2023 by blackrose

[Crewcut]

The longer we go on with the cost of living crisis the more desperate people will get. I bumped into an old colleague I used to work on the wards with as an HCA a couple of weeks ago. He still works as an HCA, has now sold his car, had to give up his rented flat and move back in with his parents. He's 49...

[blackrose]

5 minutes ago, Crewcut said:

The longer we go on with the cost of living crisis the more desperate people will get. I bumped into an old colleague I used to work on the wards with as an HCA a couple of weeks ago. He still works as an HCA, has now sold his car, had to give up his rented flat and move back in with his parents. He's 49...

 

They do say that many people in this country are only a few weeks wages or a month's salary away from homelessness. I'm doing ok but if push came to shove I'd leave my mooring and drift around as a CCer. If it gets really bad in future and lots of people are forced into that position I think CRT will have to give up on strict enforcement of the CC rules - if they haven't done so already.

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Yes, it's called an overpopulated country and a housing crisis. It shouldn't really be news to anyone with any experience of boating that the waterways are becoming increasingly overcrowded.

The UK is not overpopulated either by population or density, what it is is under-housed. Like many other countries it's also suffering from an ageing population with increased health costs and not enough young workers to look after them and pay taxes.

 

So the obvious solutions that would actually work as opposed to making headlines are either build a lot more affordable houses, kill off lots of pensioners, and allow plenty of young healthy hard-working immigrants in -- or maybe all three.

 

Which do you favour? 😉

Edited November 18, 2023 by IanD

[Laurie Booth]

57 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Every time I switch my phone on there is a headline from some newspaper or other with yet another person "living the dream".

Boaty forums on Facebook have numerous questions about buying a boat and living aboard.A recent one I saw was from a young Frenchman who wanted advice about buying and living on a rather knackered looking Dawncraft, because he said living on canals in France was difficult.

He was getting lots of encouragement from other posters and I replied suggesting that the boat he posted a photo of was in a dreadful state and I asked if he knew about insurance,BSC,licence and cruising rules.He replied that he had a friend who was talking him through these things.I got the strong impression that he was simply going to moor up somewhere and 'sit it out' as long as possible.

This is only one of many people doing this, as well as the numbers doing it 'legit'.

Linear housing estate or towpath shanty towns?

Very easy living on the canals in France, compared to the UK.

[David Mack]

13 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Yes, it's called an overpopulated country

Not even close. The UK has an average population of 720 people per square mile compared with 54,000 per square mile in Macao. The UK is 34th out of 199 countries and dependencies in the list at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density.

 

15 minutes ago, blackrose said:

and a housing crisis.

That certainly is true. I am one of I guess many on the forum, who are of an age where it was possible to get a toe hold in the housing market on one or two incomes while in our twenties, and who have 'profited' (on paper at least) by the enormous rise in property prices over the last 3 or 4 decades, while now our children struggle to afford anything.

[Guest]

What doesn't help is the default position of Nimby's (often the aging population too) who shout down housing developments if they get any sort of sniff planning has been applied for. This happens all the time around where I live. This is despite the fact that all the new housing that does actually get built gets snapped up such is the demand. These developments are normally required to include a proportion of affordable (being a relative term) homes too.

 

If planning permission is granted it is inevitably for a development reduced in size, and therefore numbers of houses.

Edited November 18, 2023 by M_JG

[blackrose]

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

The UK is not overpopulated either by population or density, 

😉

 

Not overpopulated by density... Really?

 

On a global scale it looks pretty crowded to me.

 

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

So the obvious solutions that would actually work as opposed to making headlines are either build a lot more affordable houses, kill off lots of pensioners, or allow plenty of young healthy hard-working immigrants in.

 

Which do you favour? 😉

 

The problem with your "solution" it's that it's a very short term fix. What it does is actually create a circular and growing problem because increasing the population through immigration not only creates lots of problems in the countries from which the immigrants came such as skills shortages, but it also just leads to more old people in this country so then you have to let even more people in to care for the elderly immigrants and on it goes... It's not a long term solution, but of course you don't care about that because the soundbite is good and it suits your neo-liberal agenda. You're actually just as bad in that respect as the newspaper headlines you criticise.

Edited November 18, 2023 by blackrose

[magnetman]

What needs to happen in highyly populated areas like London for example is the old streets of terraced houses should be CPO'd by .gov and build modern eco homes with multiple levels in their place. Demolish the lot of them and build modern useable spaces for people to live in. 

 

Its no good having old people hogging large houses in economically desirable areas or even worse and god forbid enslaving the younger generations by renting the bloody things out. 

 

this is a building block of societal collapse. Major change needed. Won't happen. 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by magnetman

[Mike Tee]

I'll be up front here - I live on a boat in a marina. I appreciate all the comments about high cost of living, low wages and housing shortages, and they all contribute to the ever increasing numbers of those moving onto the canal system

However, what royally pisses me off are those that move onto a boat and then milk the system of education (if they have kids of school age), use the NHS service (such as it is), claim as much as possible from the government in the way of benefits, then live on their boat in an area without really moving (don't care what the 'rules' say, bridge hopping is not cruising) and then contribute absolutely nothing to the country, local council or community in which they live. Parasites. And their way of life actually helps the decline that pushed them onto the canals, because somewhere somehow it all has to be paid for.

I can't measure how many are living like this as the information is not out there, but I suspect more than a few. Actually, I'll amend that, I know of quite a few in my immediate area.

[magnetman]

Towpaths including mooring needs to be managed by a body other than the CRT otherwise major problems will occur. 

 

They will get there but it might take a while. 

 

 

The cost of dealing with people who have inadequate and unsatisfactory housing ie boats moored to towpaths is astronomical. I wonder if a FOIA request could yield figures for how much the CRT have spent on S8 process in lets say the last decade. 

 

Its going to be a lot isn't it. 

 

This should not happen. 

[blackrose]

28 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Not even close. The UK has an average population of 720 people per square mile compared with 54,000 per square mile in Macao. The UK is 34th out of 199 countries and dependencies in the list 

 

Not even close to what? I said it was overpopulated not top of the list. But 34th out of 199 is much closer to the top than the bottom and in Europe I believe we're ranked 7th in terms of density of population.

 

Anyway, when I was growing up the population of the UK was pretty stable at around 56 million. Now we're closer to 68 million. I guess it's different for different people but to the people who say we're not overpopulated I have to ask, at what population figure would you be happy to say we're getting too crowded? 

Edited November 18, 2023 by blackrose

[magnetman]

 

 

Its partly related to 'quality of life'. 

 

There was a time when a family of 5 living in a two up two down with a tin bath in the yard was normal. Nobody bothered but these days it would be classed as inadequate housing. 

 

 

[blackrose]

39 minutes ago, IanD said:

The UK is not overpopulated either by population or density, what it is is under-housed. 

😉

 

Why can't both be true? I'm always amazed how some people can't seem to accept that two different things which appear to be on opposite sides of an argument may both be true. Their knee jerk reaction and polarised thinking means they can only accept the point that happens to support their political persuasion. Funny that...

Edited November 18, 2023 by blackrose

[Mike Todd]

15 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

I'll be up front here - I live on a boat in a marina. I appreciate all the comments about high cost of living, low wages and housing shortages, and they all contribute to the ever increasing numbers of those moving onto the canal system

However, what royally pisses me off are those that move onto a boat and then milk the system of education (if they have kids of school age), use the NHS service (such as it is), claim as much as possible from the government in the way of benefits, then live on their boat in an area without really moving (don't care what the 'rules' say, bridge hopping is not cruising) and then contribute absolutely nothing to the country, local council or community in which they live. Parasites. And their way of life actually helps the decline that pushed them onto the canals, because somewhere somehow it all has to be paid for.

I can't measure how many are living like this as the information is not out there, but I suspect more than a few. Actually, I'll amend that, I know of quite a few in my immediate area.

I have no data at all, but do talk to plenty of other boaters, but I'd hazard a guess that most boaters who need assistance (financial, medical or otherwise) make on average a lower demand cost-wise than people living in a house with similar needs.

[magnetman]

Just now, Mike Todd said:

I have no data at all, but do talk to plenty of other boaters, but I'd hazard a guess that most boaters who need assistance (financial, medical or otherwise) make on average a lower demand cost-wise than people living in a house with similar needs.

A lower demand on the state but if problems arise how much does it cost the navigation authority ? 

 

 

[Mike Todd]

28 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Not overpopulated by density... Really?

 

On a global scale it looks pretty crowded to me.

 

 

The problem with your "solution" it's that it's a very short term fix. What it does is actually create a circular and growing problem because increasing the population through immigration not only creates lots of problems in the countries from which the immigrants came such as skills shortages, but it also just leads to more old people in this country so then you have to let even more people in to care for the elderly immigrants and on it goes... It's not a long term solution, but of course you don't care about that because the soundbite is good and it suits your neo-liberal agenda. You're actually just as bad in that respect as the newspaper headlines you criticise.

One of the consequences of the right-to-buy, much trumpeted by M Thatcher, is that it helps to stoke house price inflation and an on-going reduction in the pool of social housing. One of the main factors driving policy is making sure that house prices always keep on rising, apart from the occasional short term blip. Even after one month of reduced increases leads to scare headlines about the next generations inheritance! It would take a substantial pool of housing that can be restricted in rents to shift a balance and that will entail overcoming the nimby opposition to planning. For some, if there is anything worse than a new estate next to yours (built ten years ago) is a block of social housing.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Why can't it be both? I'm always amazed how some people can't seem to accept that two different things which appear to be on opposite sides of an argument may both be true. Their knee jerk reaction means they can only accept the point that supports their political persuasion.

Nothing to do with political persuasion -- by all objective measures the UK is not overcrowded compared to many other comparable countries.

 

What it does have is a chronic shortage of affordable housing, and some areas in towns and cities which are pretty much overcrowded slums. But that's a local housing/inequality problem, not one for the UK as a whole.

 

Given the UK GDP (and size, and population) it's perfectly capable of comfortably housing everyone in the country; the reason this doesn't happen is we also have one of the highest levels of inequality among comparable countries... 😞

Edited November 18, 2023 by IanD

[Mike Todd]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

A lower demand on the state but if problems arise how much does it cost the navigation authority ? 

 

 

The costs generally arise from those choosing to ignore the rules. It is quite possible to have significant support needs and live on a boat within the 'rules'.

[magnetman]

True. 

[Mike Todd]

23 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Towpaths including mooring needs to be managed by a body other than the CRT otherwise major problems will occur. 

 

They will get there but it might take a while. 

 

 

The cost of dealing with people who have inadequate and unsatisfactory housing ie boats moored to towpaths is astronomical. I wonder if a FOIA request could yield figures for how much the CRT have spent on S8 process in lets say the last decade. 

 

Its going to be a lot isn't it. 

 

This should not happen. 

I am not advocating it but removing the right to a licence without having a home mooring would get there a lot quicker and at much less cost. But it would entail parliament to act instead of posing.

[magnetman]

 

That would cause very silly things to happen. I think it has gone to far for that and a better approach would be organised taking of money for towpath moorings. 

 

 

[system 4-50]

We are overpopulated.  We are unable to grow enough food to feed ourselves despite highly intensive methods that make no allowance for the varying climate that this country is known to have had in the past.  We can import stuff now but this will not always be true.  The standards for housing have been watered down so they are smaller.   Our population density makes no allowance for the vast areas of our country that nobody wants to live in.  We have insufficient wealth-creating industries to absorb extra workers but we are highly skilled in developing service industries that drain resources.   We are going to seed, with the decline in living standards that goes with it, and its only going to get worse.  We are going to be poorer and poorer.  

[magnetman]

I suppose if enough benefit scroungers and furriners get onto boats the Tories will ban it using yet another Act of some sort. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

We are overpopulated.  We are unable to grow enough food to feed ourselves despite highly intensive methods that make no allowance for the varying climate that this country is known to have had in the past.  We can import stuff now but this will not always be true.  The standards for housing have been watered down so they are smaller.   Our population density makes no allowance for the vast areas of our country that nobody wants to live in.  We have insufficient wealth-creating industries to absorb extra workers but we are highly skilled in developing service industries that drain resources.   We are going to seed, with the decline in living standards that goes with it, and its only going to get worse.  We are going to be poorer and poorer.  

 

 

Sadly I think this is true which is partly why I'm glad my kids have three passports.