Disabled access on trip boats

[haggis]

A canal society which we are both members of is having to have a new trip boat built as their previous one requires replating . The chairman has just contacted me to say she has heard than any new trip boats being built must have disabled access. Does anyone know if this is true or let me know where i could find out? The boat will be used for skippper driven trips for up to 12 passengers only and it had been decided not to have disabled access as the Seagull Trust who operate near us provide trips for mentally and physically challenged people and it was felt that we didn't want to "tread on their toes".

Just out of interest as some may remember the old trip boat, Bluebell,  in an earlier life. She was called Minuet and was operated by Peter Le Marchant Trust. She was then bought by the Seagull Trust and after they no longer needed her she was given to a community group who neglected her and after she had been sunk several times our canal society acquired her and spent a few years making her into a great wee boat. 

 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, haggis said:

A canal society which we are both members of is having to have a new trip boat built as their previous one requires replating . The chairman has just contacted me to say she has heard than any new trip boats being built must have disabled access. Does anyone know if this is true or let me know where i could find out? The boat will be used for skippper driven trips for up to 12 passengers only and it had been decided not to have disabled access as the Seagull Trust who operate near us provide trips for mentally and physically challenged people and it was felt that we didn't want to "tread on their toes".

Just out of interest as some may remember the old trip boat, Bluebell,  in an earlier life. She was called Minuet and was operated by Peter Le Marchant Trust. She was then bought by the Seagull Trust and after they no longer needed her she was given to a community group who neglected her and after she had been sunk several times our canal society acquired her and spent a few years making her into a great wee boat. 

 

 

I suspect that this is covered by https://www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance

 

And probably trip boats although not specifically mentioned will be covered by 'services/transport'. Probably an area where proper legal advice should be sought.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by M_JG

[haggis]

Thank you, Martin. It is a bit of as mindfield!. I also found a web site disability Scotland and have pointed the chairman in that direction as sometimes there is specific legislation relating to Scotland. I will also point her in the direction of the UK site. 

Thanks again, Haggis

[howardang]

20 minutes ago, haggis said:

Thank you, Martin. It is a bit of as mindfield!. I also found a web site disability Scotland and have pointed the chairman in that direction as sometimes there is specific legislation relating to Scotland. I will also point her in the direction of the UK site. 

Thanks again, Haggis

Have a look at the MCA small passenger boat code link below which covers most aspects of such vessels.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5ffd6917d3bf7f65d4220a58/Inland_Waters_Small_Passenger_Boat_Code_COP13.pdf

 

Howard

[Hudds Lad]

You could try contacting the Huddersfield Canal Society, they recently had a new trip boat built and might know about new legislation  

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Hudds Lad
too many recents

[Ray T]

Hargreaves Narrowboat Trust also have recently had a new boat built. It is electric powered.

 

Contact Us - The Hargreaves Narrowboat Trust 

 

 

We have thought carefully about our passengers comfort too with the design. Many passengers are elderly and infirm and access to a narrowboat is never easy.

The clever design incorporates a hydraulic passenger lift inside the rear cabin, disabled access WC, extra large windows to allow viewing whilst seated, fully fitted galley, level floor from cabin to covered bow (front) outdoor viewing area and many more features.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, haggis said:

Thank you, Martin. It is a bit of as mindfield!. I also found a web site disability Scotland and have pointed the chairman in that direction as sometimes there is specific legislation relating to Scotland. I will also point her in the direction of the UK site. 

Thanks again, Haggis

 

 

I'd be guessing, but, I doubt that the RCD / RCR will 'cover' this as it is a passenger carrying vessel (commercial ?) not a 'recreational' vessel.

 

I too think it will fall under the auspices of the MCA and was reading the standards as Howard posted them - but I cannot see anything in the relating to 'disabled access'.

[Stroudwater1]

There are two ex day boats for sale at Saul Junction currently, built by RW Davis, it may save considerable bother for you, looks to be just what you need?  

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/rw-davis-31-cruiser-stern-for-sale/738674

[Mike Todd]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I'd be guessing, but, I doubt that the RCD / RCR will 'cover' this as it is a passenger carrying vessel (commercial ?) not a 'recreational' vessel.

 

I too think it will fall under the auspices of the MCA and was reading the standards as Howard posted them - but I cannot see anything in the relating to 'disabled access'.

The main consideration will be compliance with the Equality Act but do remember that there may well be a reasonableness test to apply. However, since other trip boats have recently been built to be compliant, it seems unlikely that this would lead to an exemption.

 

I am also concerned about the phrase that was used in the OP about not reading on the toes of another trust. This suggests a mindset that the Equality Act seeks to provide distinctively for certain groups. This is wrong and lies at the heart of what modern requirements regarding access are about. The aim is to minimise the distinctiveness - indeed if someone built in a way that meant that people needing easier access had to go through a special access when a 'universal' solution were available it would likely be considered discriminatory. (Akin to 'whites only' in the the olden days). As it stands, I suspect that reasonable adaptations on a narrowboat would entail a distinct provision but it should be made as non-discriminatory as possible. Eg, label it as what it is such as lift access, not 'disabled access'. Many people become gradually less able over time and it is wrong to enforce sudden step changes in the way in which they use support. Indeed, some days it may be needed and not on others. (A problem does arise when a service offers preferential rates for certain groups - a slightly contentious issue, especially as it can bear the implication that 'disabled people' are necessarily 'poor people', even if it may well be he case for some)

 

Overall, the aim should be to design a service to minimise the impact on people with specific needs and also to eliminate any discriminatory language - only if absolutely necessary. (Which is unlikely on a trip boat)

[haggis]

1 hour ago, Stroudwater1 said:

There are two ex day boats for sale at Saul Junction currently, built by RW Davis, it may save considerable bother for you, looks to be just what you need?  

 

https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boat/rw-davis-31-cruiser-stern-for-sale/738674

I was aware of these boats and the one which has now been sold looked ideal but the remaining one  the lack of solid sides to the front of the cabin makes it a bit unsuitable for operating in Scottish waters.  I have been looking out for  ex hire day boats coming up but it has just been these two since the society got the funds in place.  

[Cheshire cat]

2 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

You could try contacting the Huddersfield Canal Society, they recently had a new trip boat built and might know about new legislation  

 

 

Their new trip boat was designed to allow use of a wheelchair lift. No idea whether this was an obligation or just thought to be the right thing to do I don't know.

[haggis]

3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

The main consideration will be compliance with the Equality Act but do remember that there may well be a reasonableness test to apply. However, since other trip boats have recently been built to be compliant, it seems unlikely that this would lead to an exemption.

 

I am also concerned about the phrase that was used in the OP about not reading on the toes of another trust. This suggests a mindset that the Equality Act seeks to provide distinctively for certain groups. This is wrong and lies at the heart of what modern requirements regarding access are about. The aim is to minimise the distinctiveness - indeed if someone built in a way that meant that people needing easier access had to go through a special access when a 'universal' solution were available it would likely be considered discriminatory. (Akin to 'whites only' in the the olden days). As it stands, I suspect that reasonable adaptations on a narrowboat would entail a distinct provision but it should be made as non-discriminatory as possible. Eg, label it as what it is such as lift access, not 'disabled access'. Many people become gradually less able over time and it is wrong to enforce sudden step changes in the way in which they use support. Indeed, some days it may be needed and not on others. (A problem does arise when a service offers preferential rates for certain groups - a slightly contentious issue, especially as it can bear the implication that 'disabled people' are necessarily 'poor people', even if it may well be he case for some)

 

Overall, the aim should be to design a service to minimise the impact on people with specific needs and also to eliminate any discriminatory language - only if absolutely necessary. (Which is unlikely on a trip boat)

Thank you for that. I must admit when I made the post this morning I just repeated without thinking what I had read in minutes but you are correct of course. People should not be denied being able to do something ( like having a boat trip with friends and family) because they are not fully able. 

I think cost came into the thinking .

[TheBiscuits]

17 minutes ago, haggis said:

I think cost came into the thinking 

 

This is stereotyping Scots

 

[haggis]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

This is stereotyping Scots

 

True but when you are a very small canal society and you don't have much money because you concentrated on providing low cost boat trips in a fairly deprived area as a means of encouraging  people to take an interest in their canal and not use it as a rubbish dump, you can sort of see the thinking. 

[Stroudwater1]

3 hours ago, haggis said:

I was aware of these boats and the one which has now been sold looked ideal but the remaining one  the lack of solid sides to the front of the cabin makes it a bit unsuitable for operating in Scottish waters.  I have been looking out for  ex hire day boats coming up but it has just been these two since the society got the funds in place.  

Just a thought- would that be solvable with some welding work as well as lowering  side panels with fasteners for disabled access?

RW Davis may well be able to do that for you, they are just round the corner. A word with them could be useful. They’ve certainly got the skills to reshape boats which probably still would be more cost effective?

I could be wrong but I believe they’ve made several other trip boats recently too, large and small. 

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, haggis said:

I was aware of these boats and the one which has now been sold looked ideal but the remaining one  the lack of solid sides to the front of the cabin makes it a bit unsuitable for operating in Scottish waters.  I have been looking out for  ex hire day boats coming up but it has just been these two since the society got the funds in place.  

Do you fancy electric. I am not sure whats happening on the Ashby but the new electric trip boat has been withdrawn from service

 

[haggis]

Thank you . I have sent an enquiry to find out more.

[Mike Todd]

13 hours ago, haggis said:

True but when you are a very small canal society and you don't have much money because you concentrated on providing low cost boat trips in a fairly deprived area as a means of encouraging  people to take an interest in their canal and not use it as a rubbish dump, you can sort of see the thinking. 

That reaction is not uncommon. However, if you instead think about why should we comply with BSS (or equivalent for trip boats) because we cannot afford it, you quickly conclude (I hope) that compliance is a necessary part of of the project cost, as much as having a working engine probably is. Even wondering about compliance with the Equality Act indicates that there is still progress to be made in refining many people's attitude to discrimination. (I repeat, that there is a reasonableness test as well. see here for a useful summary https://www.scope.org.uk/advice-and-support/asking-for-reasonable-adjustments/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAmNeqBhD4ARIsADsYfTed1jDew8ca_Uxum039WBHhWuGjt5HW9vGNdtD9CHoyiBINGQeVgDEaAhwzEALw_wcB)