Insurance vs LiFePO4 batteries (I'm stuck)

[magnetman]

16 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

 

 

I think anything in a cigarette lighter plug is a liability. The spring pushes the thing out, and when it's out enough you'll have a dodgy connection which will make heat. I haven't banished the cig lighters from the boat yet but I don't use them and they won't be staying.

 

 

 

 

I meant the little surface mount USB things hard wired to the 12v supply. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Peoples just see/hear the word "lithium" and it worries them. 

 

 

 

 

Maybe they need to take some orally. 

 

[wakey_wake]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Maybe they need to take some orally. 

Stating the obvious, but... that's a recipe for unpleasant death.

 

If y'all have kids who still put things in their mouths, make sure they never get hold of a coin cell. The 3V is much worse than 1.5V button cells.

This is the reason why newer remote controls etc. needs a tool to get the coin cell out.

[magnetman]

My bipolar sister is on Lithium. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_(medication)

2 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

Stating the obvious, but... that's a recipe for unpleasant death.

 

If y'all have kids who still put things in their mouths, make sure they never get hold of a coin cell. The 3V is much worse than 1.5V button cells.

This is the reason why newer remote controls etc. needs a tool to get the coin cell out.

 

I saved my younger daughters life when she was little by doing the heimlich manoover when she unwisely swallowed a 2p coin and it got stuck. 

 

Could have been a little bit nasty as there is not all that much thinking time. 

 

 

 

 

[wakey_wake]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

My bipolar sister is on Lithium.

Ah right, very different. I thought you meant to take a lithium battery orally.

[magnetman]

context 

 

"

Peoples just see/hear the word "lithium" and it worries them."

 

 

 

 

Maybe they need to take some orally. 

[Alan de Enfield]

On 04/11/2023 at 19:48, Rob-M said:

Did they qualify what a professional needs to qualify for them to install for you and them to insure...?  There are many "professionals" in the canal world who are next to useless.

 

 

My suggestion for their definition of a professional would be :

 

Someone who is paid for doing the work and holds Indemnity Insurance covering their work.

 

This would allow the boat insurers to recover all of their costs if the claim was found to have been caused because of something to do with the batteries.

 

If you do your own DIY install then there is nowhere for the Boat Insurers to go to recover their money when you make a claim.

 

 

On the subject of contractors Insurance my Boat insurance specifically says that I have no cover and they will not pay for ................

 

2.1.10 any liability incurred whilst Your Craft is being used by or is in the custody or control of:

i. shipyard operators or their employees;

ii. repair yard operators or their employees;

iii. slipway operators or their employees;

iv. yacht club operators or their employees;

v. marina operators or their employees;

vi. delivery skippers or their employees or crew;

vii. sales agencies or their employees; or

viii. any other similar organisations

 

You always need to ensure that anyone working on your boat has their own insurance - I once arranged a crane lift and found that their small print said "all lifts at boat owners risk".

 

I didn't use them.

 

READ THE SMALL PRINT.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Up-Side-Down]

On 05/11/2023 at 10:04, peterboat said:

I had no choice about telling my insurance company 36 Lifepo4s and an electric motor plus a generator is a big change along with 5kws of solar! If something goes wrong I need paying for it all

Who do you insure with?

[peterboat]

20 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Who do you insure with?

Craftinsure and they know its electric drive and its lifepo4s, they weren't concerned at all premium didn't change 

[Up-Side-Down]

So my only reason for a conversation with my insurance company at renewal (fast approaching) is that the value of all the off-grid kit now on board has increased the overall value of the boat considerably and I'd like to be in a position to claim in the case of, say, damage or theft. Consequently I'd only mention the replacement of 5 LAs with a dozen LiFePo4s because of the significant increase in value. Then there's the panels, MPPTs and a master and slave pair of inverters in place of the knackered old 2 kW square wave jobby. The (professionally installed) wiring is pretty extensive and employs a couple of Lynx Distributers and a Lynx BMS all controlled by a Cerbo GX and touchscreen. A wee bit frightening when you start totting it up costwise ... rather than that I have any concerns about it going BANG!

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

So my only reason for a conversation with my insurance company at renewal (fast approaching) is that the value of all the off-grid kit now on board has increased the overall value of the boat considerably and I'd like to be in a position to claim in the case of, say, damage or theft. Consequently I'd only mention the replacement of 5 LAs with a dozen LiFePo4s because of the significant increase in value. Then there's the panels, MPPTs and a master and slave pair of inverters in place of the knackered old 2 kW square wave jobby. The (professionally installed) wiring is pretty extensive and employs a couple of Lynx Distributers and a Lynx BMS all controlled by a Cerbo GX and touchscreen. A wee bit frightening when you start totting it up costwise ... rather than that I have any concerns about it going BANG!

Same for me I have a significant investment in technology on my boat,  they haven't devalued it since I told them

[Up-Side-Down]

Just now, peterboat said:

Same for me I have a significant investment in technology on my boat,  they haven't devalued it since I told them

And, hopefully, they've not minded re-valuing it in the light of your investment. To me it's purely a value thing and not a safety issue. 

 

[peterboat]

37 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

And, hopefully, they've not minded re-valuing it in the light of your investment. To me it's purely a value thing and not a safety issue. 

 

No purely on replacement if it sinks catches fire etc

[Tacet]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

My suggestion for their definition of a professional would be :

 

Someone who is paid for doing the work and holds Indemnity Insurance covering their work.

 

This would allow the boat insurers to recover all of their costs if the claim was found to have been caused because of something to do with the batteries.

 

That won't work well.  Professional Indemnity Insurance is usually on a claims made basis.  That means one can only claim against a current policy and not the one when the faulty work was undertaken.  You can check that insurance is in place when commissioning the work - but not that there will be cover in a year or two time when a claim might be brought.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Tacet said:

That won't work well.  Professional Indemnity Insurance is usually on a claims made basis.  That means one can only claim against a current policy and not the one when the faulty work was undertaken.  You can check that insurance is in place when commissioning the work - but not that there will be cover in a year or two time when a claim might be brought.

 

There are various 'types' of Indemnity insurance - you have said 'Professional Indemnity Insurance' which is generally only available to professionals such as Doctors, Accountants etc offering a service.

Public Indemnity (also called Public Liability) is different  (quote) :

 

Public liability insurance is a type of business insurance. It can provide protection for business owners if you’re taken to court because your business activities result in someone being injured or killed or cause damage to someone else’s property. It can cover your legal costs and any compensation you may have to pay.

 

Professional indemnity insurance can be confused with public liability cover, but what it insures against is different: Professional indemnity deals with intangibles. Rather than injuries, it protects against financial losses caused by advice given, negligent design, specification, data breaches, or issues with intellectual property.

 

 

I'm hazy on the dates / duration but I'm pretty confident that when we closed the business the indemnity insurance had to cover for 10 years (it may even have been 25 years) from the business closure.

Apparently it dates from 'Miners lung' and 'asbestosis' cases where it was many years before people were diagnosed

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There are various 'types' of Indemnity insurance - you have said 'Professional Indemnity Insurance' which is generally only available to professionals such as Doctors, Accountants etc offering a service.

Public Indemnity (also called Public Liability) is different  (quote) :

 

Public liability insurance is a type of business insurance. It can provide protection for business owners if you’re taken to court because your business activities result in someone being injured or killed or cause damage to someone else’s property. It can cover your legal costs and any compensation you may have to pay.

 

Professional indemnity insurance can be confused with public liability cover, but what it insures against is different: Professional indemnity deals with intangibles. Rather than injuries, it protects against financial losses caused by advice given, negligent design, specification, data breaches, or issues with intellectual property.

 

 

I'm hazy on the dates / duration but I'm pretty confident that when we closed the business the indemnity insurance had to cover for 10 years (it may even have been 25 years) from the business closure.

Apparently it dates from 'Miners lung' and 'asbestosis' cases where it was many years before people were diagnosed

Public liability insurance does not relate to claims from customers or clients.

 

I think more work is required on your definition of professional and how one might be confident that cover would continue to be available for delayed claims.

 

But the basic flaw is that you are suggesting that if an insurance company will be able to put a claim on an insurance company, all will be fine. Of course, the two companies will be different on most occasions, but the inherent problem of liability is only shifted rather than eliminated.

[Bobbybass]

From Practical Boat Owner:

 

https://www.pbo.co.uk/all-latest-posts/insurance-cover-concerns-over-lithium-batteries-82249

[MtB]

6 hours ago, Bobbybass said:

From Practical Boat Owner:

 

https://www.pbo.co.uk/all-latest-posts/insurance-cover-concerns-over-lithium-batteries-82249

 

What a rats' nest of an installation!!

 

Not sure if its supposed to be an example of a poor LFP installation or what, but I'm sure there are plenty of LA installations like this too. 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

It is an odd choice of picture. 

 

I wonder what the geyser with the 36ft motor cruiser is doing to kill his AGM bank in 2 yars. 

 

Usually one would get more than that on expensive AGMs. It looks like a boat with a marina mooring rather than swinging about in some creek somewhere. 

If the boat is used on salty water that anchor seems in a dodgy place. 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

If the boat is used on salty water that anchor seems in a dodgy place. 

 

If we are looking at the same picture - mine is in the same place.

Not sure where else you should put it.

 

 

 

 

[rusty69]

And for those of you who forgot to put the exciting event in your diaries, don't forget to tune in to this evenings exciting webinar (whatever one of those is):

 

 

[robtheplod]

The term 'professional' means different things to different people. Some think it just means you're paid to do it. If you're competent could you pay yourself!!

[rusty69]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If we are looking at the same picture - mine is in the same place.

Not sure where else you should put it.

 

 

 

 

I think MM might be referring to the bruce by the batteries

[magnetman]

Yes I was. 

The discussion was about battery installations. 

 

[cuthound]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

It is an odd choice of picture. 

 

I wonder what the geyser with the 36ft motor cruiser is doing to kill his AGM bank in 2 yars. 

 

Usually one would get more than that on expensive AGMs. It looks like a boat with a marina mooring rather than swinging about in some creek somewhere. 

If the boat is used on salty water that anchor seems in a dodgy place. 

 

I was wondering that too.

 

My Lifeline AGM's were installed when the boat was new in 2007 and are still going strong, albeit at around 50% of their original capacity.

[churchward]

On 04/11/2023 at 19:33, wakey_wake said:

I'm insured with GJW.  I asked them if they needed to know about fitting LiFePO4 batteries, and eventually they got back to me and said their underwriters wanted it to be done by a professional.

 

Well that's going to triple the cost, or more. I'm quite capable of doing it myself without starting a fire.

 

What are my options?

1. Do it anyway, and not tell them? Bad because then I won't find out I wasn't insured until I claim - they'll wriggle out of it.
2. Insure with another company and tell them what I'm doing. But if they have the same response, I'm no better off and one insurance company less to try.
3. Insure with another company and not tell them what I'm doing. Then am I back at 1) ?
4. Possibly I can get a surveyor to look at the thing and officially "commission" it, for the insurer's benefit? This doesn't sound promising.

 

What kind of LFP system do I want? Not quite sure, probably a third battery bank and some B2B.
Anyway the details of LFP system aren't relevant until I can be sure I'll stay insured. 🙁

An interesting attitude from the insurer.  I would find another one and only provide the information they ask for.

 

Not quite the same situation but we have LFP or LiFeP04 batteries installed in our house (in the loft) and solar on the roof.  I did ask our insurers about it and they were unconcerned and it did not change our policy cost.  The batteries etc. were installed by a certified installer so not DIY.