Licences

[Nightwatch]

11 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I too am deeply uncomfortable with all these unrealistically low licence fees. Unless CRT grasp the nettle and ramp them up properly to match what it costs to maintain the canals, we are at risk of losing them totally. 

 

A LOT, (one helluvalot) of money grabbing is needed to secure the future of the canal system.

 

 

 

 

I get the gist of what you’re saying. But I can’t avoid thinking that monies that are available are they being utilised in the best way. There’s a number of highly paid ‘managers’ that seem to be mismanaging. When you here of prices being paid to contractors fixing defects that could perhaps have been avoided by good honest preventative programmed maintenance. But that is my opinion.

We need government backing to be raised for this national asset to secure its future survival.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

20 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I too am deeply uncomfortable with all these unrealistically low licence fees. Unless CRT grasp the nettle and ramp them up properly to match what it costs to maintain the canals, we are at risk of losing them totally. 

 

A LOT, (one helluvalot) of money grabbing is needed to secure the future of the canal system.

Yes, looking ay the CC licence fee increase using the calculator, not really a massive amount, maybe less than yearly Marina electric price increases and mooring fees in some cases.

 Maybe they should of done the 5 year 5% increase plan in reverse, so just wack on an instant 25% increase now to get money to maintain the canals and bring the CC license fee down and raising the HM fee proportionality over the period so in 5 years they balance and everyone is happy or moaning in unison about licence costs😂
 What will be the state of the canals in 5 years? They need the money now.
 

Edited February 26 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Nightwatch]

5 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Yes, looking ay the CC licence fee increase using the calculator, not really a massive amount, maybe less than yearly Marina electric price increases and mooring fees in some cases.

 Maybe they should of done the 5 year 5% increase plan in reverse, so just wack on an instant 25% increase now to get money to maintain the canals and bring the CC license fee down and raising the HM fee proportionality over the period so in 5 years they balance and everyone is happy or moaning in unison about licence costs😂
 What will be the state of the canals in 5 years? They need the money now.
 

Agree.

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

I get the gist of what you’re saying. But I can’t avoid thinking that monies that are available are they being utilised in the best way. There’s a number of highly paid ‘managers’ that seem to be mismanaging. When you here of prices being paid to contractors fixing defects that could perhaps have been avoided by good honest preventative programmed maintenance. But that is my opinion.

We need government backing to be raised for this national asset to secure its future survival.

 

Sounds good (and I agree, obviously! -- but the reason CART have to do so much emergency defect fixing is that ever since they were formed CART haven't really had enough money to keep up with the programmed maintenance needed to keep unplanned stoppages at bay, and the problem has gradually been getting worse in recent years as the maintenance backlog increases even further.

 

Your last line is the truth of it, because the only alternative is truly *massive* fee increases for everyone who uses the canals -- boaters, businesses, hire boats, marinas -- which would drive many of them away. But the government who has been in power since CART was formed doesn't seem in favour of backing the canals, in fact exactly the opposite as shown by what the grant has done in recent years and is going to do in the future, which is fall in real terms... 😞

 

It's not as if the amount of money needed is a drop in the ocean compared to what they've wasted on other things including HS2 -- and don't get me started about bailing out bankers and the vast sums poured into the pockets of their mates during the Covid crisis... 😞

 

13 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Yes, looking ay the CC licence fee increase using the calculator, not really a massive amount, maybe less than yearly Marina electric price increases and mooring fees in some cases.

 Maybe they should of done the 5 year 5% increase plan in reverse, so just wack on an instant 25% increase now to get money to maintain the canals and bring the CC license fee down and raising the HM fee proportionality over the period so in 5 years they balance and everyone is happy or moaning in unison about licence costs😂
 What will be the state of the canals in 5 years? They need the money now.
 

All the fee increases are too small and come in far too slowly, but just think of the objections if they'd done what should *really* have been done to bring in more money quickly -- say 25% next year and 50% the year after for everyone, plus bigger surcharges for both CCers (50%?) and wideboats (up to 100% with area-based charging)...

Edited February 26 by IanD

[Paul C]

Do we all agree:

 

1. The market obeys price elasticity of demand;

2. Boat ownership is relatively inelastic;

3. There is a determinable, optimum (max income) price of licensing according to the above

4. The current increases are short of the figure in (3), possibly due to the associated negative publicity it would bring?

[Nightwatch]

We seem, as a country, to be hell bent on giving money, arms and other support to countries other than our own rather than getting our own house in order. How many millions are poured into the immigration issues. The the ‘support’ of immigrants arriving in this once lovely and prosperous country of ours. Every where you look there’s problems. NHS, education, Police, Armed Forces, roads, transport. Councils, social services, everywhere has been starved of funds for far too long.

Perhaps another government may do better. Maybe not! We need more money in the purse. Tax increases rather than cuts. Tax cuts, how is that going to help?

[Alway Swilby]

We can't be unusual in our mooring habits. Around about the beginning of March we leave a marina and change our status on the licencing website to CC. We stop paying the marina for the mooring at this point. We then CC all summer and sometime at the beginning of November we move back into the same marina or a different one depending on availability and start paying for a mooring again. We then declare our new home mooring on the web site. Up until now these change of statuses have been FOC. As it happens our licence renews on 1st January. It seems that the six month rule will mean we pay for a CC licence which is fair enough.

BUT.... are we going to have to pay £30 for each change of status so £60 per year on top of the CC surcharge. If we don't update the status when we move back into a marina and leave it as CC what happens when we get spotted in the marina for 4 months? Will we get an overstay email?

[Paul C]

4 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

We can't be unusual in our mooring habits. Around about the beginning of March we leave a marina and change our status on the licencing website to CC. We stop paying the marina for the mooring at this point. We then CC all summer and sometime at the beginning of November we move back into the same marina or a different one depending on availability and start paying for a mooring again. We then declare our new home mooring on the web site. Up until now these change of statuses have been FOC. As it happens our licence renews on 1st January. It seems that the six month rule will mean we pay for a CC licence which is fair enough.

BUT.... are we going to have to pay £30 for each change of status so £60 per year on top of the CC surcharge. If we don't update the status when we move back into a marina and leave it as CC what happens when we get spotted in the marina for 4 months? Will we get an overstay email?

 

You could email/phone them to inform the change of status but decline to pay the £30 admin fee, you'll unlikely get the reduced rate for a home moorer but you've met the licence obligation and the net amount would be less (admin fees - difference in rate).

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Perhaps another government may do better. Maybe not! We need more money in the purse. Tax increases rather than cuts. Tax cuts, how is that going to help?

 

As the economists say, you can't tax your way to prosperity. Growing the economy is the way forward.*

 

CO2 output tends however, to grow proportionally to GDP, so growing the economy is the last thing we need from a 'global warming' point of view. 

[Alway Swilby]

4 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

You could email/phone them to inform the change of status but decline to pay the £30 admin fee, you'll unlikely get the reduced rate for a home moorer but you've met the licence obligation and the net amount would be less (admin fees - difference in rate).

I agree. I expect to pay the CC rate all year. It's just that an extra £60 per year on top of that to change status seems unreasonable to me.

[Lady M]

The rationale for the CC surcharge was that these boat owners use the system more and so cost CRT more.  Therefore, the proposed arrangement of six months minimum home mooring plus status change fees doesn't make any sense to me.  Additionally, as described, it doesn't match what a fair number of CC-ers actually do in the winter.  Some also make shorter term use of temporary paid for moorings when they wish to be away from the boat.  In my view, CRT must at the very least amend the arrangement to take account of winter moorings and might also consider offering status changes for each full calendar month of paid mooring.  A refund on the next annual licence, based on documentary evidence, might be easier to administrate.  Without a fair and workable scheme, there will almost certainly be an increase in the number of ghost moorings and an even greater temptation to not update the licence record.  I am, and have always been, a home moorer.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Lady M said:

Therefore, the proposed arrangement of six months minimum home mooring plus status change fees doesn't make any sense to me.  Additionally, as described, it doesn't match what a fair number of CC-ers actually do in the winter.

 

If one was cynical, one could imagine the reason that the 6-month rule was introduced specifically because Winter moorings are (up to) 5 months

[IanD]

39 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Do we all agree:

 

1. The market obeys price elasticity of demand;

2. Boat ownership is relatively inelastic;

3. There is a determinable, optimum (max income) price of licensing according to the above

4. The current increases are short of the figure in (3), possibly due to the associated negative publicity it would bring?

Yes.

 

Given the amount of fuss kicked up by the NBTA and friends over the (small, gradual) license fee changes, it's hard to imagine what their reaction to the kind of increases that are really needed (e.g. +50% all round, +50% CC, up to +100% widebeam) would have been...

[LadyG]

I'm sure that folks working, earning £30K, consider that the licence fee and other costs of living on a boat are a bargain.

However those on the oap will know that £200 per week does not go far, and living on a boat is affordable.

[magnetman]

National Boat Twats Association. 

Militant wing of the CRT intent on making living on Boats more complicated. 

They drink in the same pub together. damhikt. 

 

It is a scheme to give the navigation authority more powers. I agree with this scheme but am not affiliated to either group. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

47 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

 What happens when we get spotted in the marina for 4 months? Will we get an overstay email?

 But you’ll be in a private Marina, so overstaying will not be CaRT’s responsibility, it will be the Marina’s, but as you say you will be paying for moorings. 
 What will happen to a boater that pays for a home mooring all year, but goes out cruising April-Oct, should he declare he’s CCing and pay a surcharge? 
 I think we’ll just have to wait and see how the system works(or maybe doesn’t) in the next couple of years. Obviously there will be various scenarios that will need tweaking/sorting.

Edited February 26 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 But you’ll be in a private Marina, so overstaying will not be CaRT’s responsibility, it will be the Marina’s, but as you say you will be paying for moorings. 
 What would happen to a boater that pays for a home mooring all year, but goes out cruising March-Oct, should he declare he’s CCing and pay a surcharge? 
 I think we’ll just have to wait and see how the system works(or maybe doesn’t) in the next couple of years. Obviously there will be various scenarios that will need tweaking/sorting.

If you pay for a home mooring all year then surely you're not a CCer and shouldn't pay the surcharge?

 

(because the 9% mooring fee levy is already paying CART a similar or maybe larger sum)

[Alway Swilby]

2 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 But you’ll be in a private Marina, so overstaying will not be CaRT’s responsibility, it will be the Marina’s, but as you say you will be paying for moorings. 
 What would happen to a boater that pays for a home mooring all year, but goes out cruising March-Oct, should he declare he’s CCing and pay a surcharge? 
 I think we’ll just have to wait and see how the system works(or maybe doesn’t) in the next couple of years. Obviously there will be various scenarios that will need tweaking/sorting.

Do you think so? Our licence will show us as CC but we'll be in the same area for 4 months.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

National Boat Twats Association. 

Militant wing of the CRT intent on making living on Boats more complicated. 

They drink in the same pub together. damhikt. 

 

It is a scheme to give the navigation authority more powers. I agree with this scheme but am not affiliated to either group. 

I'd love to know why you think the NBTA are a wing of CART, given that they're nothing to do with them and I guess that CART hate them...

[Alway Swilby]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

If you pay for a home mooring all year then surely you're not a CCer and shouldn't pay the surcharge?

 

(because the 9% mooring fee levy is already paying CART a similar or maybe larger sum)

I think that will be the case.

[LadyG]

On 19/09/2023 at 11:38, IanD said:

I don't think a percent or so either way in inflation measure makes much difference compared to the amount above inflation CART is going to increase the fees by (10%?), and how big the increases for boats without a home mooring and widebeams are -- together these are likely to make a much bigger difference...

 

There's massive resistance to getting rid of the triple lock, and given that most pensioners vote Tory it's extremely unlikely to happen under this government or before the GE.

Triple lock, don't think that is going to link inflation to benefits.

When inflation was 10 percent,  three years ago, the government could not give pensioners ten percent, so they got 3%, and that loss was never adjusted. Triple Lock is not mandatory as far as the Treasury is concerned, its just a smokescreen to cover tbe failure of government to live up to pre election promises.

OAPp will not all vote Conservative, why would you think that? 

On 19/09/2023 at 11:38, IanD said:

I don't think a percent or so either way in inflation measure makes much difference compared to the amount above inflation CART is going to increase the fees by (10%?), and how big the increases for boats without a home mooring and widebeams are -- together these are likely to make a much bigger difference...

 

There's massive resistance to getting rid of the triple lock, and given that most pensioners vote Tory it's extremely unlikely to happen under this government or before the GE.

Triple lock, don't think that is going to link inflation to benefits.

When inflation was 10 percent,  three years ago, the government could not give pensioners ten percent, so they got 3%, and that loss was never adjusted. Triple Lock is not mandatory as far as the Treasury is concerned, its just a smokescreen to cover tbe failure of government to live up to pre election promises.

OAPp will not all vote Conservative, why would you think that? 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 minute ago, Alway Swilby said:

I think that will be the case.

That IS the case.

I think using the term ccer adds confusion,

sticking to home mooring or no home mooring would make things much easier to understand,

 

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

14 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Do you think so? Our licence will show us as CC but we'll be in the same area for 4 months.

They may contact the Marina to get confirmation that it’s ok, I know what your saying but scenario’s like this will as I said, maybe need some tweaking to work, as you won’t be alone.

Edited February 26 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[magnetman]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'd love to know why you think the NBTA are a wing of CART, given that they're nothing to do with them and I guess that CART hate them...

 

They are working to give the navigation authority more powers over people who live on Boats.

 

It seems obvious. 

 

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

That IS the case.

I think using the term ccer adds confusion,

sticking to home mooring or no home mooring would make things much easier to understand,

 

 

 

Continuous Cruiser is a recognised term now. It is used on .gov websites. 

 

Initially it was a colloquialism but this is no longer the case. 

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Triple lock, don't think that is going to link inflation to benefits.

When inflation was 10 percent,  three years ago, the government could not give pensioners ten percent, so they got 3%, and that loss was never adjusted. Triple Lock is not mandatory as far as the Treasury is concerned, its just a smokescreen to cover tbe failure of government to live up to pre election promises.

OAPp will not all vote Conservative, why would you think that? 

The facts?

 

(I never said "all" because that would be exaggeration...)