Licences

[Cheshire cat]

I make it £2898.92p

[Ianws]

My reading of it is this. Assuming the licence i2 £1200 andgoes up 10% each year after 5 years it would be 1200× 1.1 ×1.1 ×1.1 x1.1 ×1.1

Which comes to £1932

The cc extra at year 5 would be an extra %25 of the licence (1932) = £483

Total £2415

 

That's for a narrowboat.

 

 

[carp-addict]

Here is how I came to the figure 

2024 

1200 + 10 % std + 5% cc £1386

2025

£1386 + 10% std + 10% cc £1667

2026

£1667 + 10% std + 15% cc £2121

2027 

£2121 + 10% std + 20% cc £2799

2028

£2799 + 10% std + 25% cc £3849

 

Year 5 £3849

 

Not sure if that's how the pricing goes but that's how I understood it. If my maths is correct 😜

 

[Ianws]

My reading is the cc surcharge isn't cumulative. It's just 25% on top of the standard licence. But I may be wrong. 

[carp-addict]

I hope so👍

[Arthur Marshall]

5 minutes ago, Ianws said:

My reading is the cc surcharge isn't cumulative. It's just 25% on top of the standard licence. But I may be wrong. 

That's my reading. Of course, once the principle has been established...

[Ianws]

3 minutes ago, carp-addict said:

I hope so👍

This is from the latest CRT boater's update.

 

Boats without a home mooring

Boats without a home mooring will see a total surcharge of 25% applied on top of the standard licence fee. It will be phased in, so that the surcharge in each year is as follows:

• April 2023 (existing): Standard licence fee
• April 2024: Standard licence fee + 5%
• April 2025: Standard licence fee + 10%
• April 2026: Standard licence fee + 15%
• April 2027: Standard licence fee + 20%
• April 2028: Standard licence fee + 25%

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, Ianws said:

This is from the latest CRT boater's update.

 

Boats without a home mooring

Boats without a home mooring will see a total surcharge of 25% applied on top of the standard licence fee. It will be phased in, so that the surcharge in each year is as follows:

• April 2023 (existing): Standard licence fee
• April 2024: Standard licence fee + 5%
• April 2025: Standard licence fee + 10%
• April 2026: Standard licence fee + 15%
• April 2027: Standard licence fee + 20%
• April 2028: Standard licence fee + 25%

 

 

My reading is (as previously announced) that the 'Standard licence fee' will be inflation rate + 5%.

 

That is then taken as the base calculation for all of the other categories.

 

So in 2024 if the inflation rate is running at (say) 5% (2023 £1000 licence for a boat with a home mooring) the licence fee becomes +10% on the 2023 level (£1,100)

 

A  'class 3' fat boat that is CCing will pay the 'base NB with a home mooring fee' +31% so in 2024 will pay £1310

 

By 2028 a class 3 CCing fat boat will pay the 2028 'standard NB licence fee' (probably about £2000 by then) +75% so will be about £3500.

 

.

[Cheshire cat]

2 hours ago, Ianws said:

My reading of it is this. Assuming the licence i2 £1200 andgoes up 10% each year after 5 years it would be 1200× 1.1 ×1.1 ×1.1 x1.1 ×1.1

Which comes to £1932

The cc extra at year 5 would be an extra %25 of the licence (1932) = £483

Total £2415

 

That's for a narrowboat.

 

 

I was trying to do what you did but may have overcooked it

It's not a big increase considering pensions / earnings will also have inrteased during that period

[Allan(nb Albert)]

55 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

My reading is (as previously announced) that the 'Standard licence fee' will be inflation rate + 5%.

 

That is then taken as the base calculation for all of the other categories.

 

So in 2024 if the inflation rate is running at (say) 5% (2023 £1000 licence for a boat with a home mooring) the licence fee becomes +10% on the 2023 level (£1,100)

 

A  'class 3' fat boat that is CCing will pay the 'base NB with a home mooring fee' +31% so in 2024 will pay £1310

 

By 2028 a class 3 CCing fat boat will pay the 2028 'standard NB licence fee' (probably about £2000 by then) +75% so will be about £3500.

 

.

Not sure about the 5% but certainly CRT has announced its intention to increase licences above (CPI) inflation for the next five years.

I guess some think they will be paying less on the basis that others will be paying more ...

Edited October 11, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)

[magnetman]

I'm wondering what will happen to the lesser minnows. 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

I'm wondering what will happen to the lesser minnows. 

 

 

They buy smaller boats and become minnowettes...

[Momac]

Does no one expect any significant impact on boating on the C&RT controlled  inland waterways resulting from these price increases? (assuming the predictions prove to be correct)

I would have though, at the very least, some reduced demand and but perhaps that is what people want?

Unfortunately reduced demand will also mean C&RT will not see their income increase in line with the price increases.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Does no one expect any significant impact on boating on the C&RT controlled  inland waterways resulting from these price increases? (assuming the predictions prove to be correct)

I would have though, at the very least, some reduced demand and but perhaps that is what people want?

Unfortunately reduced demand will also mean C&RT will not see their income increase in line with the price increases.

 

 

These increases are no longer 'predictions' they are the actual figures announced by C&RT. The only question is the base line 'start point' as to what 'add on' (they have previously suggested 5%) there will be to the inflation rate, to give the 'standard NB with a home mooring' licence fee on which all other categories are calculated.

 

It may be a 3% adder, it may be a 7% adder, but the examples given will not be far out.

 

There may well be a small loss, but (to keep the maths simple) If C&RT doubled the price of the licence, any 'losses' of less than 50% of the licence renewals would be a nett gain, and, a smaller number of boater would result in less stress on the infrastructure (less toilet flushes / blockages, less bins to empty, less locking movements / accidents, less potable water to pay for, less back-pumping charges, etc etc) so there would be additional gains (savings) there.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

These increases are no longer 'predictions' they are the actual figures announced by C&RT.

 

Point of Order M'Lud...

 

I can't see any figures. Only percentage additions to be loaded onto the baseline figures for next year which have not yet been published. 

[Alan de Enfield]

39 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Point of Order M'Lud...

 

I can't see any figures. Only percentage additions to be loaded onto the baseline figures for next year which have not yet been published. 

 

"Number and figure are two words that can both refer to an abstract entity used to describe quantity".

 

The percentages quoted are figures !

 

As I said (and you repeated) the only 'unknown' is the exact base line figure that us the starting point for the calculation of each category.

 

We do know that it will be the Inflation rate "+"

C&RT have previously suggested that the "+" could be 5%, but, it could be greater or lesser. The exact number will have a small effect on the overall charges as released by C&RT.

[Ronaldo47]

I always treat any figures emanating from government-related organisations with suspicion born of experience. I well remember that, when student loans were introduced, a minister said they would be interest-free because the debt would only rise at the rate of inflation. 

[Machpoint005]

7 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

They buy smaller boats and become minnowettes...

 

Don't they have those on mosque-witoes?

 

 

[Naughty Cal]

7 hours ago, MartynG said:

Does no one expect any significant impact on boating on the C&RT controlled  inland waterways resulting from these price increases? (assuming the predictions prove to be correct)

I would have though, at the very least, some reduced demand and but perhaps that is what people want?

Unfortunately reduced demand will also mean C&RT will not see their income increase in line with the price increases.

 

It will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some people.

 

I strongly suspect that once the new pricing kicks in there will be a lot of people for whom keeping their boat was marginal will decide to sell up.

[Arthur Marshall]

13 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

It will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some people.

 

I strongly suspect that once the new pricing kicks in there will be a lot of people for whom keeping their boat was marginal will decide to sell up.

What hasn't been mentioned at all is how much what CRT charge for moorings is going up.  If that rises by the same percentage as the licences, both EOG and marina charges are going to go through the roof as well. I'm waiting with bated breath - 10% on the licence is maneagable, the same added to the mooring fee takes it very near the limit, especially when combined with the sheer dodginess of planning any cruises for years to come.

[Cheshire cat]

I think we can expect to see mooring fees rise in a similar fashion.

 

We moor on CRT water in what is currently an arm under restoration. Fees are based on charges applied to local marina berths and are up for renegotiation this year. I think a significant rise is on the cards.

[Arthur Marshall]

17 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

I think we can expect to see mooring fees rise in a similar fashion.

 

We moor on CRT water in what is currently an arm under restoration. Fees are based on charges applied to local marina berths and are up for renegotiation this year. I think a significant rise is on the cards.

I think that's just a story invented by CRT. I'm on an online mooring with no facilities , and as far as I'm aware, having moved a couple of times, all the farms charge about the same. So they are the only comparable moorings, yet CRT charge me twice as much as the landlord does. I reckon they just make a figure up. I don't mind, I just wish they'd be honest about it.

[Momac]

2 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

It will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some people.

 

I strongly suspect that once the new pricing kicks in there will be a lot of people for whom keeping their boat was marginal will decide to sell up.

There are also lots of financial pressures in life outside boating . Lots of boats for sale at the moment and only those which are very reasonably priced and well presented are selling.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

It will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some people.

 

I strongly suspect that once the new pricing kicks in there will be a lot of people for whom keeping their boat was marginal will decide to sell up.

 

Or just move onto alternate waters.

[magnetman]

Nowhere else in this country gives anywhere close to the value that a canal licence for a narrow boat does.

 

Thames licence for 17m narrow boat would 17*2.1*22.76 = £812.50 (rounded) 

 

Canal licence for 17m narrow boat currently £1215 (no discounts). 

 

Canal system ~2000 miles lets round it down to 1215 miles to be tidy. 

 

So on the cut you pay £1 per available mile of waterway. Its actually less but just pretend there are only 1215 miles of connected canals available to a 17m narrow. 

 

Thames is 135 miles (non tidal). 

 

812.50/135 = £6 per mile. 

 

Canal licences are an unbelievable bargain. Double it tomorrow and it is still an unbelievable bargain considering what is actually provided.