Gay community

[LadyG]

14 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

As it's a discussion forum, I'd have thought that opened up the possibility that ideas expressed here might be thought about, and so attitudes might indeed change, if only a bit. You never know, although admittedly the politics section isn't a good example of it happening!

Correct, as it happens I have no strong views on homosexuality, but I've read some of the previous posts and trust that most people don't go on about how much we owe to Alan Turing et al. 

I've pretty much formed most of my opinions and attitudes, but not by listening to one person's soapbox.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyG

[kris88]

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

PS I've put wandering on my ignore list. 

(Does nothing for the cause)

Fascinating. 

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, wandering said:

It’s worth pointing out that not even 60 years ago—in my parents’ lifetime, in my lesbian aunts’ lifetime, maybe even in some of your lifetimes—heterosexuals put laws in place that would make me illegal. I could be punished, beaten and imprisoned. That isn’t ancient history. This still happens in some parts of the world. The reverberation of this regressive practice is still felt by people like me. It was your heterosexual police force who would entrap us like we were wild savages, they would raid our gathering spots, unable to leave us alone, veritably foaming at the mouth to oppress and subjugate. They would pretend to be like us so they could hurt us. Alan Turing helped Britain to win the Second World War and his reward from the heterosexual majority was castration. Truly and utterly shameful.  It was this society where even popular homosexuals feared being themselves. Kenneth Williams, who the British public adored for his role in the Carry On films and Just a Minute, could never feel truly comfortable with himself because of the society he was born in, despite the deep public adoration for him and his talent. I posit his profound self-loathing was created by a society that hated who he really was and loved his created persona on stage and film. When we are told to just integrate, I dare say why don’t you lot make a society that is welcoming and caring for people like me so that this so-called integration is possible? Why is it incumbent upon me to do that? You create laws to criminalise me, you castrate me, you threaten and hurt me. What are you doing to help me integrate? Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. 
 

When I retired in 2013 I was amazed to find out that my company pension scheme would pay 50% of my pension to my spouse after my death, but only if it was female. Since I have a husband of the male variety, properly married and all that, the scheme would not pay him after my death. I could have divorced him and married a woman I’d known for 10 minutes, who would then get my surviving spouse pension. That was 10 years ago, not ancient history.

 

Fortunately I did eventually manage to get that changed, only thanks to the fact that the gruff Texan religious oilman in Huston, who was CEO of the company and who I’d met a few times, had a gay son.

 

More recently it’s been, in so many words, suggested to me that since I am gay, I must be a paedophile. This despite the fact that the majority of paedophila is known to be heterosexual.

 

We visited Bletchley park again last month, the whole Alan Turing thing was really brought home to me. His crime was loving another man and his punishment was public disgrace and castration. He was eventually pardoned, but not until 2013! That is only 10 years ago and about 60 years after the event.

 

So there is still stuff going on that those who say “the lady doth protest too much” choose to ignore.

Edited September 5, 2023 by nicknorman

[HenryFreeman]

11 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Correct, as it happens I have no strong views on homosexuality

 

 

Your thinly veiled attack in your first comment suggests otherwise.

[nicknorman]

A popular theme amongst heterosexuals is “I don’t mind if you are gay, what you do in the privacy of the bedroom, and your lifestyle, is your business. But please don’t mention it, I don’t want to know.” They of course have no objection to discussions about heterosexual lifestyles.

 

This is analogous to  “I have no problem with black people, just so long as I don’t have to see them in my neighbourhood.”

Edited September 5, 2023 by nicknorman

[LadyG]

3 minutes ago, HenryFreeman said:

 

Your thinly veiled attack in your first comment suggests otherwise.

It was  not meant to be a thinly veiled attack, or any sort of attack, I was thinking how difficult it would be if OP particularly wanted to meet up with others in the North.

 I've never seen any flagged boats or boaters, except @huami, and i only noticed him because he has been on here and used the boat name, as well as his own.

[Tony1]

30 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I think @wandering is getting carried away, obviously the UK has changed the law, quite a few years ago,  and other countries have other ideas, but you are not likely to change attitudes by posting like this on this forum.

By integration I mean just get on with your life. There are people who are homophobic and you are not going to change them.

 

I think its easy for us heterosexual folks to be blase about gay rights, as we are not the ones in the firing line. 

Remember that gay marriage was only fully legalised a decade ago- so this is not some kind of historical issue. 

Throughout the decades it has been all too easy for heterosexual citizens to think: "Oh well, at least we don't just kill them any more, right? They should be grateful."

Then it was: "Well at least we don't jail them any more, right? What are they moaning about?"

Then: "Well they can legally marry now, right? What more do they want?"

But our society is still one where an overtly gay man is at risk of verbal abuse (if not assault) whilst walking the streets.  Anti-gay feeling and abuse is not an issue that can now be set aside, or considered to be 'finished'. 

If we want to be a truly fair and equal society, we have to accept that there is more work to do. 

I understand that it can feel to older folks as if gay rights and trans rights are being force fed to society, but I don't think older people are the target audience anyway. I suspect there are many older folks who feel that dear old Blighty reached its cultural peak some time in 1953, and that almost every change since has been for the worse. 

But on the plus side, the younger generation- who (generally speaking) seem to be much wiser and more tolerant than many of their parents, and especially their grandparents- do seem to be evolving in a positive direction. 

 

 

[LadyG]

PS, I had no idea of the Alan Turing story, which seems just unbelievable, just dreadful. 

 

[frahkn]

14 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I think its easy for us heterosexual folks to be blase about gay rights, as we are not the ones in the firing line. 

Remember that gay marriage was only fully legalised a decade ago- so this is not some kind of historical issue. 

Throughout the decades it has been all too easy for heterosexual citizens to think: "Oh well, at least we don't just kill them any more, right? They should be grateful."

Then it was: "Well at least we don't jail them any more, right? What are they moaning about?"

Then: "Well they can legally marry now, right? What more do they want?"

But our society is still one where an overtly gay man is at risk of verbal abuse (if not assault) whilst walking the streets.  Anti-gay feeling and abuse is not an issue that can now be set aside, or considered to be 'finished'. 

If we want to be a truly fair and equal society, we have to accept that there is more work to do. 

I understand that it can feel to older folks as if gay rights and trans rights are being force fed to society, but I don't think older people are the target audience anyway. I suspect there are many older folks who feel that dear old Blighty reached its cultural peak some time in 1953, and that almost every change since has been for the worse. 

 

But on the plus side, the younger generation- who (generally speaking) seem to be much wiser and more tolerant than many of their parents, and especially their grandparents- do seem to be evolving in a positive direction. 

 

 

When I walk the streets it's not as an 'overtly heterosexual' man. Passers by would not know my sexuality, why should they be aware of a gay man's?

 

I have passed Telemachus in the middle of Atherstone locks, I was quite unaware of Nicknorman's sexuality (or his pension status) at the time.

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, frahkn said:

When I walk the streets it's not as an 'overtly heterosexual' man. Passers by would not know my sexuality, why should they be aware of a gay man's?

 

I have passed Telemachus in the middle of Atherstone locks, I was quite unaware of Nicknorman's sexuality (or his pension status) at the time.

My husband will have been with me. Had he been a she, and  had you seen us embracing, kissing, holding hands etc you would have said “Ah that’s nice, they must be in love!”. I wonder what you would have thought if you had seen Jeff and me doing likewise?. We didn’t, but only because we didn’t want to scare the horses. I refer to my earlier post!

[Tony1]

23 minutes ago, frahkn said:

When I walk the streets it's not as an 'overtly heterosexual' man. Passers by would not know my sexuality, why should they be aware of a gay man's?

 

 

I'm not sure I understand your question, tbh. 

Are you asking whether it is ok for a person to dress in such a way that their likely sexuality is discernible from their clothing and appearance? 

But whatever that question is asking, I think my feeling on it would be: why does it matter how someone wishes to present themselves in public? 

Surely it is their business, and no-one else's?

It may be that for some folks, they express their sexuality partly through their appearance- it is important them personally. That said, I imagine there should be some common sense limits- for both heterosexual and gay folks.

E.g. maybe its not ok to walk down the high street naked, or clad in a way that is likely to cause a breach of peace- that kind of thing.

But within some very broad limits, I don't know why any of us would be too concerned about whether a passing man is gay or not, or how he/she is dressed, or whether their appearance indicates their likely sexuality. 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Tony1

[IanD]

37 minutes ago, LadyG said:

PS, I had no idea of the Alan Turing story, which seems just unbelievable, just dreadful. 

 

My (sadly deceased) father-in-law knew Turing from his time at Bletchley Park (he was the lead engineer who built Colossus); as far as he was concerned he was a genius, and nobody there cared (or knew?) about his sexuality.

 

His death was an appalling loss to the country, though there is actually some doubt about whether it was suicide or not there's no doubt he was treated appallingly by the UK government... 😞

 

https://www.turing.ethz.ch/alan-turing/turing-s-death.html

Edited September 5, 2023 by IanD

[LadyG]

25 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

My husband will have been with me. Had he been a she, and  had you seen us embracing, kissing, holding hands etc you would have said “Ah that’s nice, they must be in love!”. I wonder what you would have thought if you had seen Jeff and me doing likewise?. We didn’t, but only because we didn’t want to scare the horses. I refer to my earlier post!

I think that displays of affection in a public place would be less likely to cause an eyebrow to be raised in cities and other places or occasions where there are more cosmopolitan people. That’s just society adjusting to change, led by the upcoming generation,.

The boating community, in general would be represented by the older generation, set in their ways, slow to adapt to change, but that does not mean they object to any particular section of society 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyG

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

My (sadly deceased) father-in-law knew Turing from his time at Bletchley Park (he was the lead engineer who built Colossus); as far as he was concerned he was a genius, and nobody there cared (or knew?) about his sexuality.

 

His death was an appalling loss to the country, though there is actually some doubt about whether it was suicide or not there's no doubt he was treated appallingly by the UK government... 😞

 

https://www.turing.ethz.ch/alan-turing/turing-s-death.html

One thing I only really “clocked” on our latest visit to Bletchley was that really it was Turing who came up with the whole concept of having a programme to control an electronic machine. It seems such an obvious and ubiquitous concept now, but at the time it was utterly novel and ground breaking.

[Nightwatch]

Many moons ago, dad was a licencee. His pet hate was a couple sat in the corner showing their affection of each other having bought a Coke between them. Dad died in 1978. The world is a different place now. I often wonder if he would cope in todays pub environment. 
He didn’t like people winning on the reluctantly installed fruit machine. All the pubs sockets were controlled behind the bar. Unexpectedly the machine would loose its power and the winner would win no more.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Nightwatch

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

One thing I only really “clocked” on our latest visit to Bletchley was that really it was Turing who came up with the whole concept of having a programme to control an electronic machine. It seems such an obvious and ubiquitous concept now, but at the time it was utterly novel and ground breaking.

It wasn't just the idea of a programmable computing machine, it was the realisation of what this could be capable of -- that the "universal Turing machine" (as it's now called) could be made capable of solving many general-purpose problems, limited only by computing power and memory. As we're seeing today with the rise of AI, programs/hardware like ChatGPT are already capable of things which would have seemed unbelievable only a few years ago.

The fact that he realised all this before any such machine had been built -- or even knowing how/whether/when it could be built -- makes his work even more remarkable...

Edited September 5, 2023 by IanD

[LadyG]

14 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Many moons ago, dad was a licencee. His pet hate was a couple sat in the corner showing their affection of each other having bought a Coke between them. Dad died in 1978. The world is a different place now. I often wonder if he would cope in todays pub environment. 
He didn’t like people winning on the reluctantly installed fruit machine. All the pubs sockets were controlled behind the bar. Unexpectedly the machine would loose its power and the winner would win no more.

I remember those days, when it seemed that the most unsuitable people  ran local pubs, I think many started as tenants for the chains of brewery owned pubs.

I worked in a pub with a barman who used to watch the 'puggy", and took his break when it was ready to pay out. Much to the disgust of the guy who had just fed it

Those were the days when shop assistants went to work to catch up on each others gossip, and being helpful was not on the agenda.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyG

[Nightwatch]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I remember those days, when it seemed that the most unsuitable people  ran local pubs, I think many started as tenants for the chains of brewery owned pubs.

Those were the days when shop assistants went to work to catch up on each others gossip, and being helpful was not on the agenda.

 

Dad had a number of successful pubs and clubs over the years. The pub I refer to above was a busy London pub in Holborn. They use to ‘do’ about three hundred lunches everyday. All home cooked in the small upstairs kitchen. In the evening it became a busy locals pub. Some very entertaining parties were witnessed by local Police, on and off duty until the early hours. One side of the street was under Bow Street and the other was Holborn. Dad died, (and mum following 14 months later) whilst running a pub in South Holmwood South of Dorking. The prolonged hard work and dedication took its toll. Heart took both Ma and Pa. I hardly got to know the bloke. Very sad times at the time.

[kris88]

31 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

One thing I only really “clocked” on our latest visit to Bletchley was that really it was Turing who came up with the whole concept of having a programme to control an electronic machine. It seems such an obvious and ubiquitous concept now, but at the time it was utterly novel and ground breaking.

Look into Ada Lovelace and the anyalytical  engine. I think she is credited as being the first programmer. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by kris88

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

My husband will have been with me. Had he been a she, and  had you seen us embracing, kissing, holding hands etc you would have said “Ah that’s nice, they must be in love!”. I wonder what you would have thought if you had seen Jeff and me doing likewise?. We didn’t, but only because we didn’t want to scare the horses. I refer to my earlier post!

 

I think that illustrates the differences between yourselves just trying to get on with society as a whole and some others on here who seem intent on shoving their sexuality in society's face. I have no problem with emblems denoting gay "spaces" and I don't think I have any problem with those who inhabit them. I look on the rainbow above clubs and pubs as simply informing me that I may not be comfortable if I went in.

 

What I can't abide is the outlandish costumes on body shapes they do nothing to enhance on open display on pride marches.  I see it as an excuse for blatant exhibitionism without a care of the effect it may have on others. How do you answer a child who says "why is that funny man/lady dressed like that?"

 

And before the zealots start I have welcomed a couple of gays onto my boat a number of times and really nice chaps they are. I was also happy to go onto a boat in Oxford displaying a gay flag to help diagnose an alternator fault. I was a bit disturbed when the boater started to draw attention to his flag. I only have a problem when gays start to try to ram their sexuality into my face, otherwise they are just people.

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Nightwatch said:

Dad had a number of successful pubs and clubs over the years. The pub I refer to above was a busy London pub in Holborn. They use to ‘do’ about three hundred lunches everyday. All home cooked in the small upstairs kitchen. In the evening it became a busy locals pub. Some very entertaining parties were witnessed by local Police, on and off duty until the early hours. One side of the street was under Bow Street and the other was Holborn. Dad died, (and mum following 14 months later) whilst running a pub in South Holmwood South of Dorking. The prolonged hard work and dedication took its toll. Heart took both Ma and Pa. I hardly got to know the bloke. Very sad times at the time.

Lovely photo,  I worked in a pub for a few shifts per week, and I can understand that certain customers take the pixel, which is what anyone buying one coca cola and two straws is doing.

I  gave up my part time barmaid job when I had a pair of customers taking the pixel and the owner insisted I should serve them after the legal time, I had warned them, they did it to bait me, for their own entertainment.

  It was awkward as I also worked part time for a mutual friend, a bit complex, and I only started working for him when his previous barmaid resigned and he was stuck

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyG

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Lovely photo,  I worked in a pub for a few shifts per week, and I can understand that certain customers take the pixel, which is what anyone buying one coca cola and two straws is doing.

I  gave up my part time barmaid job when I had a pair of customers taking the pixel and the owner insisted I should serve them after the legal time, I had warned them, they did it to bait me, for their own entertainment.

  It was awkward as I also worked part time for a mutual friend, a bit complex, and I only started working for him when his previous barmaid resigned and he was stuck

 

Was the objection to one coke/two straws, or because the couple was gay?

[LadyG]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Was the objection to one coke/two straws, or because the couple was gay?

They were not gay. Sorry they were just a nuisance, what I am saying is anyone taking a  table that could be making a profit are a nuisance on a busy day.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that illustrates the differences between yourselves just trying to get on with society as a whole and some others on here who seem intent on shoving their sexuality in society's face. I have no problem with emblems denoting gay "spaces" and I don't think I have any problem with those who inhabit them. I look on the rainbow above clubs and pubs as simply informing me that I may not be comfortable if I went in.

 

What I can't abide is the outlandish costumes on body shapes they do nothing to enhance on open display on pride marches.  I see it as an excuse for blatant exhibitionism without a care of the effect it may have on others. How do you answer a child who says "why is that funny man/lady dressed like that?"

 

And before the zealots start I have welcomed a couple of gays onto my boat a number of times and really nice chaps they are. I was also happy to go onto a boat in Oxford displaying a gay flag to help diagnose an alternator fault. I was a bit disturbed when the boater started to draw attention to his flag. I only have a problem when gays start to try to ram their sexuality into my face, otherwise they are just people.

But that is no difference from girls wearing shirt skirts etc etc, is it? Is that blatant exhibition too? Or is it only men showing some kind of sexuality that upsets you , in which case you need to think about why this is so.

Having worked on the fringes of the music industry all my life, I must say, if you'll pardon the phrase, that I have never given a toss about anyone's sexual orientation except on the rare occasion I fancied them, when it occasionally became moot (usually, sadly, it didn't) . Most people's sexuality is dotted about the usual random distribution curve - the ones who think this is a threat to themselves or society or even claim to get embarrassed by normal displays of affection are, in my humble opinion, weird.

What an odd thread this has become.

[LadyG]

21 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 

What an odd thread this has become.

When I see "camp" comedians, I have to laugh because they seem to be laughing at themselves, which is always a good sign.

When I see guys dressed really smart,  groomed to the n'th degree, I think  "good for them", nothing to do with sex, just being smart, making the effort etc.

 I make the effort about once a week, but then I'm always doing things like painting the gunwales, changing the oil, and in another life,  keeping my horses clean and tidy.

I don't go out clubbing, but if I was passing a pub with a gay rainbow, and it was the nearest, I would just assume that would be okay, I'd not assume only gays were allowed!

I used to inspect hostelries, and made history when I inspected Royal Troon golf club. In those days, no women were allowed in.

My Big Chief Boss was informed, and I was told about this local rule. 

I remember the bar was quite busy and it all went silent when I entered.

No one died.

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyG