Morco gas pipe size

[BWM]

Can anyone help me with the gas pipe dimension for a Morco Eco plus water heater? The rest of the system will be run in 3/8", and would be useful to know if I'll need a different size pipe/adapter for the above. 

[MtB]

Like wires, gas pipes need to be sized according to both the load they are carrying and the length. 

 

So we don't have enough info to advise.

 

1) How many metres of pipe will there be and what other gas appliances will you be hanging on this pipe?

2) What are heat input ratings of these appliances?

 

 

P.S. How did you determine the "rest of the system" needs to be 3/8"?!

 

 

P.P.S. And another question! What set of regs are you wanting to comply with? The RCR is a lot stricter than the BSS IIRC.

 

 

[Bargebuilder]

32 minutes ago, BWM said:

Can anyone help me with the gas pipe dimension for a Morco Eco plus water heater? The rest of the system will be run in 3/8", and would be useful to know if I'll need a different size pipe/adapter for the above. 

Not sure about the output of your Morco, but my F11e had to have a 15mm pipe dedicated to it from within the gas locker where it had its own gas cock. The supply pipe was 3 metres long with no joins apart from within the gas locker and of course at the water heater. The challenge was to get all the pipe bends in exactly the correct places and to exactly the correct angles so both ends of the 3m pipe ended up in precisely the right place. 

You have to get really good with a 15mm pipe bender.

[Quattrodave]

2 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

Not sure about the output of your Morco, but my F11e had to have a 15mm pipe dedicated to it

 

Crikey! How much gas does the thing use?!

[Bargebuilder]

15 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

 

Crikey! How much gas does the thing use?!

Well, it outputs 19kw to deliver 11litres of hot water per minute, so quite a lot.

[Alan de Enfield]

[magnetman]

I had a Morco on one of my previous boats and it was interesting to note that the gas line had been increased in size just before the unit (about 8 inches) by a brazed joint changing it from about 3/8 to about 12mm. I don't know the exact sizes but whoever had installed it could presumably have found a compression fitting but no it was brazed. 

 

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

Well, it outputs 19kw to deliver 11litres of hot water per minute, so quite a lot.

 

I reckon your gas installer must have used the Natural Gas pipe-sizing chart!

 

 

[BEngo]

Don't  forget to check that the regulator can actually pass all the gas needed into the pipework.

 

N

[Bargebuilder]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I reckon your gas installer must have used the Natural Gas pipe-sizing chart!

 

 

I did the work myself and followed the Morco instructions which specify 15mm pipe. 

 

The gas inlet connection to the Morco is 3/4" BSP, so to have a supply pipe of 15mm makes good sense to me.

1 hour ago, BEngo said:

Don't  forget to check that the regulator can actually pass all the gas needed into the pipework.

 

N

And that the gas bottle is capable of yielding gas at the required rate.

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

And that the gas bottle is capable of yielding gas at the required rate.

 

On one of our Static Caravans we have had to connect together 4x 47 Kg cylinders to get sufficient volume to feed the gas fire, boiler, cooker and hob.

(Thats how I know the pigtails don't have non-return valves in them)

[Bargebuilder]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

On one of our Static Caravans we have had to connect together 4x 47 Kg cylinders to get sufficient volume to feed the gas fire, boiler, cooker and hob.

(Thats how I know the pigtails don't have non-return valves in them)

Did you have 8 in a row with an auto changeover valve?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

The gas inlet connection to the Morco is 3/4" BSP, so to have a supply pipe of 15mm makes good sense to me.

 

Ignorance like this reminds me why I don't normally get involved with the gas threads.

 

 

[Bargebuilder]

16 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Ignorance like this reminds me why I don't normally get involved with the gas threads.

 

 

As I said, the gas installation was done exactly as recommended in the manufactures instructions. If in your professional opinion Morco are wrong to stipulate 15mm gas supply pipe, then explain rather than criticise.

[BWM]

12 hours ago, magnetman said:

I had a Morco on one of my previous boats and it was interesting to note that the gas line had been increased in size just before the unit (about 8 inches) by a brazed joint changing it from about 3/8 to about 12mm. I don't know the exact sizes but whoever had installed it could presumably have found a compression fitting but no it was brazed. 

 

 

Was it the 3/8" pipe that actually connected to the appliance? It was fitted so badly, I junked everything bar the water heater (along with just about all wiring, pipework and stove installations...). Always a pleasure to follow in the footsteps of the shoddy!

Edited July 31, 2023 by BWM

[magnetman]

I can't remember but the gas water heater was not in the boat when I sold it. It did pass BSS. 

 

 

[alan_fincher]

3 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

I did the work myself and followed the Morco instructions which specify 15mm pipe. 

 

The gas inlet connection to the Morco is 3/4" BSP, so to have a supply pipe of 15mm makes good sense to me.

I can see no reference to 15mm pipe in the Morco F11E installation instructions.

Can you post a link to a version that shows this?

[Alan de Enfield]

38 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I can see no reference to 15mm pipe in the Morco F11E installation instructions.

Can you post a link to a version that shows this?

 

The installation with the post 2017 'water heater' shows :

 

Introduction Since 1997 Morco have supplied the F11E and F11EL LPG water heaters into the holiday home industry. Sadly, the factory in Northern Spain closed in 2017 and Morco have now sourced replacement water heaters.

 

We have recently launched the EUP11RS water heater and appreciate that many of these will be purchased to replace the longstanding F11E and the more recent F11EL models in holiday homes. Gas engineers and holiday home owners alike will wish to know what the differences are and how easy it is to convert. For those reasons we have created this fact sheet.

Things That Remain the Same

• Both heaters provide a heat output of approximately 19kW.

• The temperature of the hot water at a sink tap can be increased for both heaters by reducing the flow rate through the tap.

• The basic operation of the water heater is identical in that it has a water control assembly containing a diaphragm that opens and closes the gas valve.

• Both water heaters are fan flued and room sealed and can therefore be used in a room without any ventilation needed to operate the heater effectively and safely.

• 15mm hot and cold water pipes 

 

Gas pipes must be 15mm for the EUP11RS – please purchase the PKE fitting kit with the water heater.

[Bargebuilder]

30 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I can see no reference to 15mm pipe in the Morco F11E installation instructions.

Can you post a link to a version that shows this?

It was probably 11 or 12 years ago when the F11e was a new model when I fitted mine and I don't own the boat any more or the installation manual, but the newer model which I believe is something like EUP11RS is also a 19kw boiler and that too specifies a 15mm supply.

 

It's not that surprising, my home 25kw gas combi boiler specifies a 22mm gas supply and that's only an extra 6kw.

 

I'm not sure why anyone would worry about an oversized pipe anyway, even if that were to be the case. A 15mm copper pipe with no joins or elbows in it outside of the gas locker, apart from at the boiler itself, to me is a safe way to do the job. Not the easiest, because bending 15 pipe accurately requires some practice, but it's nice having no unnecessary compression joints.

[system 4-50]

I can't see any reference to 15mm in this:

https://morcoproducts.co.uk/content/Manuals/EUP11RS User %26 Installation Manual.pdf

[Bargebuilder]

4 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I can't see any reference to 15mm in this:

https://morcoproducts.co.uk/content/Manuals/EUP11RS User %26 Installation Manual.pdf

Alan's quote stating such was from an official Morco pdf from the Morco website.

 

Why is it so important to you? 

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Alan's quote stating such was from an official Morco pdf from the Morco website.

 

Why is it so important to you? 

 

Are you sure, I think 15mm refers to the water pipes, not gas pipes in Alan's quote. In any case I feel just saying 15mm for gas may well lead to confusion because it has been known for people to use 15mm copper water pipes for gas - and get them failed at the BSS. That was because of using soft solder joints.

[Bargebuilder]

It's important to have read and understood the BSS regulations and to be competent before doing your own gas installation. Of course solder joints shouldn't be used, but no joints are even better than compression joints.

[blackrose]

50 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I'm not sure why anyone would worry about an oversized pipe anyway, even if that were to be the case. 

 

Assuming it's the correct soft copper "refrigeration quality" pipe I don't think there's any particular issue in having an oversized gas pipe other than the unnecessary expense including oversized fittings, and the extra work involved in bending the pipe.

 

My main run is in 1/2" dia over about 12m length as I used to have a gas fridge and a Morco D-61E water heater on the system and that was the correct pipe diameter calculation over that length of run for the kW output of both appliances. Now I only have the Morco and the main run reduces to 5/16" dia (from memory) to connect to the heater. Yours must be massive output heater if it needs 15mm pipe over just 3m, but maybe your have other gas appliances being fed from the same run which you haven't mentioned?

Edited July 31, 2023 by blackrose

[Bargebuilder]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

Assuming it's the correct soft copper "refrigeration quality" pipe I don't think there's any particular issue in having an oversized gas pipe other than the unnecessary expense including oversized fittings, and the extra work involved in bending the pipe.

 

My main run is in 1/2" over about 12m length as I used to have a gas fridge and a Morco D-61E water heater on the system and that was the correct pipe diameter calculation over that length of run for the kW output of both appliances. Now I only have the Morco and the main run reduces to 5/16" (from memory). Yours must be massive output heater if it needs 15mm pipe over just 3m, but maybe your have other gas appliances being fed from the same run which you haven't mentioned?

I had three propane appliances, the 19kw Morco, a gas hob and a built-in gas oven. Each had its own, dedicated gas pipe, run from the gas locker to each appliance. Each had its own stop valve inside the gas locker, so any one could be isolated individually. I used 10mm copper for the hob and oven which was much easier to bend to the compound curves of a Dutch barge. 

There were no joins in any of the pipes apart from inside the gas locker and next to each appliance. I don't like having joints in gas pipes behind panelling or cupboards.

 

 

 

Just because you don't need to have an installation that is over engineered, doesn't mean it's a bad thing to do.

That's one advantage of doing the work yourself!