Another opportunity for incompetent jobsworths?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

I am distraught to realise I am disbarred from applying, me being an Apple user. 😭 

 

 

You can get Word for Mac.

Edited July 24, 2023 by M_JG

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Why is that, we have plenty of staff accessing Office 365 from their Apple Mac's, iPads and iPhones.

 

I'm too cheapskate and thick to know how to do that...

 

 

[Graham_Robinson]

4 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

" Commit as much or as little time as you need. "

That's the crucial phrase with any form of volunteer labour. How many, when and for how long.

[LadyG]

I could volunteer: I'm pretty incompetent, though I'm sure I'll manage a document, it's a tick box situation is it not?

I've not got my own car but happy to buddy up, and my experience of broken infrastructure is quite extensive.

You will recall that I was top of the class in engineering!

 

[HenryFreeman]

13 hours ago, BilgePump said:

It's not about not being able to use it, but why be forced to use a Microsoft product? Writing something quite simple in old school HTML4 produces a document that can be viewed in any web browser, and nobody has to pay a license fee.

 

A text file would be more preferable than getting people, who most likely have never written any HTML, to write HTML markup.

 

Yes, HTML is easy. No, it's not as easy as pressing buttons on a toolbar to format your text as bold, italic or underlined.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 minute ago, HenryFreeman said:

 

A text file would be more preferable than getting people, who most likely have never written any HTML, to write HTML markup.

 

Yes, HTML is easy. No, it's not as easy as pressing buttons on a toolbar to format your text as bold, italic or underlined.

Nobody knows how to write a text file any more. Everyone clicks on the WP symbol and just writes. Any decent computer can convert and read docs in any format - certainly the recieving office can.

HTML changes so often, and what works once doesn't work now or on all browsers, that it would be daft to expect most people to have a clue.

I presune the base document they'll get issued is in a MS format, which is why they specify it. Doesn't stop the whole idea being a recipe for disaster though.

They could actually simplify the whole thing by issuing all continuous cruisers with an email address and a standard form to report problems, and make it compulsory as part of their t&cs. And then, of course, if they didn't get enough reports at a far enough distance apart (after all, you can't go ten miles without seeing something knackered) , they could take their licences off them for not being on a genuine cruise.

Win win!

[Iain_S]

21 hours ago, buccaneer66 said:

I'll volunteer and apply all the elf & safety we have to use on site.

 

You can't go through those dangerous locks with full hi vis, steel toe cap boots, hard hat, eye protection goggles, and anti cut gloves.

Was "with" meant to be "without"? (I assume the gear you list is actually required on site, and that no one is prohibited from entry because they're wearing it!) 

 

The list does, however, reveal the dangers of "tick box" safety assessments. Some of that gear introduces more risk than it mitigates, and a lifejacket is conspicuous by its absence!

[Mike Todd]

21 hours ago, BilgePump said:

Why, why, why? If there is a great candidate, a retired civil engineer, who only wants to send a scan of a handwritten sheet, then surely that is of better value than some little know nothing hitler who happens to be able to format a word doc.

Not really - for the work to be of any value then the results need to be shared and these days (especially with more WFH) it means putting it on line. Most companies take the view that directly inputting, rather than handwritten notes is by far the most cost effective system. If hand written notes are submitted and then typed up by someone else they will have to be checked by the originator for errors and hence become more expensive and less timely.

 

In any event, you would have to be a very long retired civil engineer not to be IT savvy! Next you will be suggesting that a structure designed and analysed by slide rule is better than one checked by computer . . . Also, risk assessments go way beyond engineering considerations, most especially how users operate facilities.

[Chris Lowe]

1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

Was "with" meant to be "without"? (I assume the gear you list is actually required on site, and that no one is prohibited from entry because they're wearing it!) 

 

The list does, however, reveal the dangers of "tick box" safety assessments. Some of that gear introduces more risk than it mitigates, and a lifejacket is conspicuous by its absence!

Good spot Iain yes it should be "without"

[Allan(nb Albert)]

3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Not really - for the work to be of any value then the results need to be shared and these days (especially with more WFH) it means putting it on line. Most companies take the view that directly inputting, rather than handwritten notes is by far the most cost effective system. If hand written notes are submitted and then typed up by someone else they will have to be checked by the originator for errors and hence become more expensive and less timely.

 

In any event, you would have to be a very long retired civil engineer not to be IT savvy! Next you will be suggesting that a structure designed and analysed by slide rule is better than one checked by computer . . . Also, risk assessments go way beyond engineering considerations, most especially how users operate facilities.

The cynic in me says that the volunteer will complete an MS document, save it in .docx format and attach it to an email. At the ivory tower, a member of staff will open the attachment, print it out and then misfile it in a four drawer filing cabinet.

 

Ok, it will not be quite that bad but how do CRT get data from hundreds or thousands of .docx files into something that can be queried and interogated?

 

 

 

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

.... how do CRT get data from hundreds or thousands of .docx files into something that can be queried and interogated?

 

 

 

Well spotted that man!

Anyone who wants to do survey these days uses a database, similar to a spreadsheet.

 

But what about the spelling, people sometimes make errors, lol 😆

Edited July 25, 2023 by LadyG

[Ronaldo47]

6 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Most companies take the view that directly inputting, rather than handwritten notes is by far the most cost effective system. If hand written notes are submitted and then typed up by someone else they will have to be checked by the originator for errors and hence become more expensive and less timely.

 

 

An advantage of hand-written notes (assuming they are retained) is that you can usually work out from the handwriting who made them. A relative in the housing  department once mentioned the issues they had in the 1970's when they first changed from manual to computer records, as it was difficult to know with the new system who had made entries. This caused  problems when trying to find out who was responsible when mistakes in entries had been made.  I think modern systems would  have audit trails that avoid this  problem.

 

 

 

    

Edited July 25, 2023 by Ronaldo47
typo

[Allan(nb Albert)]

9 hours ago, HenryFreeman said:

 

A text file would be more preferable than getting people, who most likely have never written any HTML, to write HTML markup.

 

Yes, HTML is easy. No, it's not as easy as pressing buttons on a toolbar to format your text as bold, italic or underlined.

For the record MS Word can output in HTML format (usually via "save as a webpage" option). It can also save as a text file (usually via "save as plain text" option).

The default .docx format saves the file as a collection of XML (eXtensible Markup Language) files that are contained inside a ZIP (i.e. compressed) archive. This is a much more complicated format than either of the above and not the best option if the final target destination is a database (or spreadsheet).

[Rob-M]

Word documents saved in to a SharePoint document library are fully indexed and searchable.  Or the contents imported into a SQL database or a data warehouse.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Post Removed

Edited July 25, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Chris Lowe]

<Tongue in cheek mode:on>

Maybe CRT are up with the times and will employ AI to co-ordinate all thes reports.

<tongue in cheek mode:off>

 

[HenryFreeman]

30 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

For the record MS Word can output in HTML format (usually via "save as a webpage" option). It can also save as a text file (usually via "save as plain text" option).

The default .docx format saves the file as a collection of XML (eXtensible Markup Language) files that are contained inside a ZIP (i.e. compressed) archive. This is a much more complicated format than either of the above and not the best option if the final target destination is a database (or spreadsheet).

 

Sure, but if you're writing your document in Word then there's no real benefit of exporting to HTML. 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

But what about the spelling, people sometimes make errors, lol 😆

 

When Boris resigned, it seemed like the end of an error. 

 

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

Word documents saved in to a SharePoint document library are fully indexed and searchable.  Or the contents imported into a SQL database or a data warehouse.

Sharepoint is a convenience for holding similar documents together and making them available to a subset of users. In itself it will not answer queries such as how many rated the risk as 3 (see my post above).

I am aware of the ability of the ability to import MS documents  into a database or for a database to reference external MS documents. However this does not really address the needs of of holding validated information at a field (column) level (again see my post above).

 

43 minutes ago, HenryFreeman said:

 

Sure, but if you're writing your document in Word then there's no real benefit of exporting to HTML. 

The trick would be to export as a csv but that is more the domain of spreadsheets.

 

***** As an aside -

https://narrowboatworld.com/14702-official-stoppages-2022-23

The data that is collected daily is output CSV format. This feeds into a spreadsheet (for producing graphs) and also into an SQL database for future analysis.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Ronaldo47]

I usually still save my documents in RTF format out of habit, a hangover from the days when files were saved on floppies. My documents are normally just text without things like embedded images that require the MS formats. An advantage is that the smaller files transfer faster when using Bluetooth. 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

8 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I usually still save my documents in RTF format out of habit, a hangover from the days when files were saved on floppies. My documents are normally just text without things like embedded images that require the MS formats. An advantage is that the smaller files transfer faster when using Bluetooth. 

I seem to have a problem with posts displaying blank at he moment. I apologise f or this.

MS Word can save in Rich Text Format. It is much more simple than .docx which has a tree like structure.

 

On the other hand .docx is saved in a compressed format which saves space on large documents.

 

Getting back to the central issue -

CRTs Minimum Safety Standard 2.d.3 states: 'Lock Chambers and Gates must be kept free of protrusions which could cause snagging of vessels'.

Some eleven years ago Ken Churchill's boat hung up and sunk on the lock chamber wall in Lock 40 on the Leeds & Liverpool Canal.

Ken found the official published report of incidents and sinkings on the Leeds & Liverpool Canal since 2007 to be -

• 287 incidents. 53 sinkings.
• 37 incidents and 10 sinkings have been related to lock chamber walls.
• Bank Newton Locks (six locks) - 24 incidents involving lock chamber walls, with five sinkings.

 

CRT ended up paying over £500,000 in litigation and settlement costs.

To this day no remedial work has been carried out to rebuild the out of vertical lock 40 chamber wall at Bank Newton.

I wonder what report a volunteer would give on this lock and if they would would be informed of the above prior to inspection.
 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Allan(nb Albert)

[cuthound]

On 24/07/2023 at 21:36, LadyG said:

Really? I think we are in the realms of fantasy. 

CRT employees who drive around every day could fall in a lock, or trip over as they get out their van, they don't go round in pairs so one can work while the other acts as his H&S buddy.

 

When I was a senior manager for BT it was essential that remote workers had a safe system of working. This is part of any companies duty of care for their employees 

 

Depending upon the specific site risk, this varied from phoning a central control to announce you had safely arrived and again when you had safely finished, to having to operate on site sensors every few minutes to show you were still active 

 

For really high risk work, such as entering underground chambers or live electrical working, two man working was mandated.

Edited July 26, 2023 by cuthound
To remove a full stop masquerading as a space.

[Heartland]

Writing a proper risk assessment does need training as the compiler has to take into account the dangers and decide the level of risk. 

 

With canal infrastructure, deterioration is a factor to consider. When boaters visit a lock, for example, access to the lock gear and if working or not is important. Moving lock gates, making sure the boat does not slip back to the cill, or under the lock gate mechanism. Should volunteers be asked to do this? I would think not. If there is an accident and a volunteer compiled an inaccurate report, a legal case might be the result. 

 

That said there is nothing wrong for those that visit the location to pass on concerns to the CRT and they to have competent people in their employ to make a judgement and compile the Risk Assessment.

 

 

[LadyG]

On 25/07/2023 at 22:45, Allan(nb Albert) said:

I seem to have a problem with posts displaying blank at he moment. I apologise f or this.

MS Word can save in Rich Text Format. It is much more simple than .docx which has a tree like structure.

 

On the other hand .docx is saved in a compressed format which saves space on large documents.

 

Getting back to the central issue -

CRTs Minimum Safety Standard 2.d.3 states: 'Lock Chambers and Gates must be kept free of protrusions which could cause snagging of vessels'.

Some eleven years ago Ken Churchill's boat hung up and sunk on the lock chamber wall in Lock 40 on the Leeds & Liverpool Canal.

Ken found the official published report of incidents and sinkings on the Leeds & Liverpool Canal since 2007 to be -

• 287 incidents. 53 sinkings.
• 37 incidents and 10 sinkings have been related to lock chamber walls.
• Bank Newton Locks (six locks) - 24 incidents involving lock chamber walls, with five sinkings.

 

CRT ended up paying over £500,000 in litigation and settlement costs.

To this day no remedial work has been carried out to rebuild the out of vertical lock 40 chamber wall at Bank Newton.

I wonder what report a volunteer would give on this lock and if they would would be informed of the above prior to inspection.
 

The inspection refers to visitors rather than boating.

[Tonka]

https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/risk/index.htm

 

Gives you info