Realistic and Brutal Honesty Needed For Disabled Potential Boater

[Bee]

I can't see a propeller or anything so it would need an outboard to move it. It does look a bit rusty so might well need some welding but it is a viable home so far as i can see. The marina would probably like to see it go sooner or later though so where to put it is the next thing to think about. (edit) Needs to go on a truck to move it too.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Bee

[Higgs]

The boat looks as if the only power it might have had would have come from an outboard. There is no tiller. 

 

 

[rooslootoo]

so which one of these is applicable, http://www.smallcraftservices.com/survey-tpes.php 

7 minutes ago, Bee said:

I can't see a propeller or anything so it would need an outboard to move it. It does look a bit rusty so might well need some welding but it is a viable home so far as i can see. The marina would probably like to see it go sooner or later though so where to put it is the next thing to think about. (edit) Needs to go on a truck to move it too.

well what kind of out board and which one can produce power for batteries and how much? Assume I'm an idiot....

11 minutes ago, Bee said:

I can't see a propeller or anything so it would need an outboard to move it. It does look a bit rusty so might well need some welding but it is a viable home so far as i can see. The marina would probably like to see it go sooner or later though so where to put it is the next thing to think about. (edit) Needs to go on a truck to move it too.

the marina is fine where it is if I purchase it

14 minutes ago, David Mack said:

There's some pictures at https://www.networkyachtbrokerskent.co.uk/boats_for_sale/Barge_Narrowboat-38515.html/

1982 build. Out of the water. Very rusty below the water line. Has a swim of sorts at the stern, but doesn't look to have a stern tube, so has presumably never had an engine fitted. 

well if someone else buys it, I know why...

[David Mack]

12 minutes ago, Higgs said:

The boat looks as if the only power it might have had would have come from an outboard. There is no tiller. 

 

 

No sign that it has ever had an outboard bracket either.  I suspect it was built as an unpowered boat.

[rooslootoo]

Just now, David Mack said:

No sign that it has ever had an outboard bracket either.  I suspect it was built as an unpowered boat.

well, I suspected that, but as I'm no expert I thought I would wait and see what you all said...

17 minutes ago, Bee said:

I can't see a propeller or anything so it would need an outboard to move it. It does look a bit rusty so might well need some welding but it is a viable home so far as i can see. The marina would probably like to see it go sooner or later though so where to put it is the next thing to think about. (edit) Needs to go on a truck to move it too.

moving isnt a problem till its ready

[David Mack]

10 minutes ago, rooslootoo said:

well if someone else buys it, I know why...

I only reposted the link you included in your earlier post (click on "Remarks").

But since the boat failed to sell at auction I don't think you'll be trampled in the rush of eager buyers from the forum.

[Higgs]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

No sign that it has ever had an outboard bracket either.  I suspect it was built as an unpowered boat.

 

There is a couple of studs, but I would have expected to see more signs of an outboard, like dirt and incidental marks, which there isn't. 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Its a lot of steelwork to install a stern tube, engine beds, fuel tank, rudder, rudder tube, stock and shaft. Can  you work and weld steel to a good standard?

[rooslootoo]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I only reposted the link you included in your earlier post (click on "Remarks").

But since the boat failed to sell at auction I don't think you'll be trampled in the rush of eager buyers from the forum.

I'm not mad just a cynic

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its a lot of steelwork to install a stern tube, engine beds, fuel tank, rudder, rudder tube, stock and shaft. Can  you work and weld steel to a good standard?

I spent 5 years learning that, so no

[Tracy D'arth]

17 minutes ago, rooslootoo said:

so which one of these is applicable, http://www.smallcraftservices.com/survey-tpes.php 

well what kind of out board and which one can produce power for batteries and how much? Assume I'm an idiot....

the marina is fine where it is if I purchase it

well if someone else buys it, I know why...

The hull survey. But its 40 years old, it will fail to be thick enough all over, 4mm, to be insurable.  If you are serious go round it with a hammer all over below the water line including under the base plate. You will hear when you hit a thin patch.

It could be a home build and you don't know what thickness steel was used.

How much experienced of mechanical and steel things do you have ?

At that price it will go for scrap once they have salvaged the inside fittings.

3 minutes ago, rooslootoo said:

I'm not mad just a cynic

I spent 5 years learning that, so no

That confuses me, can you weld?

[David Mack]

Some years ago we had a forum member looking for a small cheap unpowered steel narrowboat to fit out as a home office, to be moored alongside the boat they already lived on. This could be fine for that purpose, but turning it into a self-propelled craft with all the necessary services and home comforts for living aboard is huge task, which will take much longer and cost much more than you think.

21 minutes ago, rooslootoo said:

Assume I'm an idiot....

You said it.  (You did ask for brutal honesty   🙂).

[rooslootoo]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Some years ago we had a forum member looking for a small cheap unpowered steel narrowboat to fit out as a home office, to be moored alongside the boat they already lived on. This could be fine for that purpose, but turning it into a self-propelled craft with all the necessary services and home comforts for living aboard is huge task, which will take much longer and cost much more than you think.

You said it.  (You did ask for brutal honesty   🙂).

thx to all of you I may have saved 1000s as an outboard engine that can power batteries is better and meets my needs a due to dietary requirements all I need is a portable freezer and a mini oven or a gas hob, and I'm sorted for using laptop and tablet or charging phone...

10 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The hull survey. But its 40 years old, it will fail to be thick enough all over, 4mm, to be insurable.  If you are serious go round it with a hammer all over below the water line including under the base plate. You will hear when you hit a thin patch.

It could be a home build and you don't know what thickness steel was used.

How much experienced of mechanical and steel things do you have ?

At that price it will go for scrap once they have salvaged the inside fittings.

That confuses me, can you weld?

no, I have a severe learning disability and wasted 5 years of my life learning, shockingly University is easier the 3rd time round....

I will be incognito till I get back and thanks to all of you for your help

well 25 more minutes

[Bod]

3 minutes ago, rooslootoo said:

thx to all of you I may have saved 1000s as an outboard engine that can power batteries is better and meets my needs a due to dietary requirements all I need is a portable freezer and a mini oven or a gas hob, and I'm sorted for using laptop and tablet or charging phone...

No outboard motor creates a useful amount electricity.  Even for running a lap-top, at the same time as the motor is running.

To run a small freezer, at least 400 amps of battery capacity, 70 amp alternator to recharge the batteries, engine running for at least 6 hrs a weekday plus 8-10 hrs a day at the weekend.

As you may understand, creating enough electricity is the downfall of many new boaters,  A set of batteries (Lead Acid batteries) will cost £300-900 and can be wrecked in as little as a few days.

Lithium batteries are a whole different ball game, much more expensive, and almost as easy to wreck.

 

Bod.

[rooslootoo]

4 minutes ago, Bod said:

No outboard motor creates a useful amount electricity.  Even for running a lap-top, at the same time as the motor is running.

To run a small freezer, at least 400 amps of battery capacity, 70 amp alternator to recharge the batteries, engine running for at least 6 hrs a weekday plus 8-10 hrs a day at the weekend.

As you may understand, creating enough electricity is the downfall of many new boaters,  A set of batteries (Lead Acid batteries) will cost £300-900 and can be wrecked in as little as a few days.

Lithium batteries are a whole different ball game, much more expensive, and almost as easy to wreck.

 

Bod.

I had no plans running a laptop while moving, I know 4-6 miles isn't fast but trust me I need to give it my full attention

and I have found lithium batteries that may be usable and stackable too

 

[enigmatic]

Is the top steel or wood (can't tell from the picture, but the internal rot is consistent with a leaky wooden top)

 

You could also consider a GRP cabin cruiser instead; some are more likely to be available in your budget especially if youre able to consider boats only suitable for cruising wide canals. These have a number of disadvantages for living on compared with narrowboats (size, usually an outboard engine unsuited to power generation, lack of insulation and no stove). On the other hand, this boat also has those disadvantages, and cruisers have some specific advantages (they float and don't need several thousand pounds spent on steel to stay floating, they have an engine, and although their windows might drip they're probably not letting as much rainwater into the cabin )

Edited April 19, 2023 by enigmatic

[Bod]

18 minutes ago, rooslootoo said:

I had no plans running a laptop while moving, I know 4-6 miles isn't fast but trust me I need to give it my full attention

and I have found lithium batteries that may be usable and stackable too

 

Before going any further with lithium batteries, search this forum for the charging requirments for lithium batteries, this is very different to LA's.  But no outboard will charge lithium batteries safety or quickly.

 

Bod

 

 

[Machpoint005]

18 minutes ago, rooslootoo said:

I had no plans running a laptop while moving, I know 4-6 miles isn't fast but trust me I need to give it my full attention

and I have found lithium batteries that may be usable and stackable too

 

 

Have you done a power audit? That's the first stage. It will tell you what battery capacity you need, and how much electricity you must generate (or import via shoreline). Are there enough hours in the day?

 

Solar won't do it, wind generators are a waste of effort on a canal, an outboard won't do it, and you cannot run any engine after 8pm except for propulsion.

 

I don't think it adds up, and it never will. Ye canna change the laws of physics ...

 

 

 

[rooslootoo]

2444 watt hours to 9444 watt hours

 

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, rooslootoo said:

2444 watt hours to 9444 watt hours

 

 

Over what period ?

Per day, per week, per month .................... ?

[rooslootoo]

well this is what was needed for the lowest amount before I knew you can charge from engine

 

2 x 12V 200Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery w/ Bluetooth = £1,759.98
3 x 200 Watt 12 Volt Monocrystalline Solar Panel = £539.97
1 x Rover Li 60 Amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller = £227.99
1 x 3000W 12V to 230V/240V Pure Sine Wave Inverter With English Standard Socket (with UPS Function) = £299.99

[Quattrodave]

2 hours ago, rooslootoo said:

well this is what was needed for the lowest amount before I knew you can charge from engine

 

Eh?  Anyway, I'm finding it really difficult to follow what you actually want.  So I'm going to read between the lines. 

 

Brutally honest, I don't think you know what you are getting into, from the language and questions I'm not convinced you have the skill set.  I don't think you appreciate how much it will cost you to refit a boat.  Even your solar install will cost you much more that you think.  You haven't factored cables, connectors, crimps, ties, labels, conduit, clamps, switches, breakers, isolators, fuses, buzz bars, tools, more tools etc etc.  You probably want to factor in a second set of batteries for when you destroy the first set through mis-charging them...

Edited April 19, 2023 by Quattrodave

[Ianws]

9 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If the 30' boat is a cruiser stern there is very little left in cabin length. Even a trad stern you would be lucky to have 22' of living space and roof space.

 

A 50' trad gives about 38' of cabin.

I couldn't live on out 30ft cruiser stern. I could probably survive on it just about in extreme circumstances. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If the 30' boat is a cruiser stern there is very little left in cabin length. Even a trad stern you would be lucky to have 22' of living space and roof space.

 

A 50' trad gives about 38' of cabin.

Putting lithium batteries on that boat would be crazy. They cost a fortune and still need charging, along with a proper charging system that also costs more. An outboard engine isn't going to charge them and you have the issue of where to legally store your petrol. Most deisel inboard engine boats have large deisel tanks on board. Not the same for outboards. Petrol is also a lot more easily flammable and needs care on where and how it is stored. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Ianws

[Barneyp]

11 hours ago, rooslootoo said:

well this is what was needed for the lowest amount before I knew you can charge from engine

 

2 x 12V 200Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery w/ Bluetooth = £1,759.98
3 x 200 Watt 12 Volt Monocrystalline Solar Panel = £539.97
1 x Rover Li 60 Amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller = £227.99
1 x 3000W 12V to 230V/240V Pure Sine Wave Inverter With English Standard Socket (with UPS Function) = £299.99

You seem to be assuming that the solar panels will each produce 200 watts of power for several hours a day.

They won't ( they might get near that  at midday on a few days of the year) from October until March you'll get somewhere between very little and nothing. 

During the summer they will make a useful contribution, but there will still be cloudy days when they give you nothing.

Bigger or more batteries won't help as you still need to charge them.

Outboards motors do not provide much charging power, normally just enough to charge their own starting battery.

Without another power source what you want to do won't work.

[Jess--]

11 hours ago, rooslootoo said:

well this is what was needed for the lowest amount before I knew you can charge from engine

 

2 x 12V 200Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery w/ Bluetooth = £1,759.98
3 x 200 Watt 12 Volt Monocrystalline Solar Panel = £539.97
1 x Rover Li 60 Amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller = £227.99
1 x 3000W 12V to 230V/240V Pure Sine Wave Inverter With English Standard Socket (with UPS Function) = £299.99

Your inverter has the capability of totally emptying those batteries (100% to 0%) in 90 minutes or less (and with lithiums you never want to be doing that)

 

those solar panels (under perfect conditions) will need 9-10 hours of full sun to recharge the batteries assuming the losses through the mppt controller aren't too high. this may work during the summer, during spring and autumn you will struggle, during winter you will have more chance of seeing elvis perform live than getting your batteries to full charge.

 

When I previously said that members on here were charging from their engines I meant fairly hefty diesel engines with alternators giving 70-150A of 12v output which on paper would be capable of charging your batteries in 3-6 hours assuming the batteries can take that current at all stages of charging (in reality it would probably be nearer 5-9 hours)

 

The power outputs from outboards are tiny as all they are really designed to do is recharge the battery used to start them, I would guess at most being under 10A output (based on the wiring thickness they seem to use) and that would probably only be produced with the engine running at over half of it's top speed (not at a little over tickover which is what you'll be doing on the canals), Assuming you could get the full 10A you would need to run the outboard for 40 hours to recharge your batteries (that you can empty in 90 minutes).

 

Another things to bear in mind with outboards is Fuel, Petrol is a much more dangerous fuel than diesel and has much tighter controls on how it can be stored and used on boats, as a result you will find that there are very few places on the canal network that you can refuel directly so every bit of fuel you use you will have to carry from a petrol station to the boat.

 

Another thing springs to mind...

You show a shower in your layout.... where are you getting your hot water?

Most boats have a hot water tank that is heated with waste heat from the diesel engine (and in some cases can also dump that heat into radiators to heat the boat).

if you're looking at an outboard then this option is out.

forget electric water heating unless you are on a mains hookup

this leaves you with 3 other options
1. hot water heated by stove back boiler (do you really want to have to light a stove to get hot water in a heatwave like last summer?)
2. Diesel water heater (webasto / eberspacher etc)

3. LPG water heater (will hammer gas bottles)
Any of the options will mean a fair amount of modification to the boat you have shown (adding water tanks / gas bottle lockers / diesel tanks)

 

 

As for the boat... I'll be blunt... There's a reason it didn't sell at auction. it looks to have been designed to sit at the end of someones garden as a spare bedroom permanently plugged into the mains.

[Higgs]

If there's going to be an outboard and petrol on board, may as well add a petrol generator. It'll be needed. Some generating will be required, if there isn't going to be a main diesel engine. An on-demand hot water unit could supply those hot water needs. The gas will need a locker, and the only place I can see for it is on the back deck. 

 

Could do with two lockers on the back deck area; one for gas and one for petrol.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Higgs