The National Bargee Travellers Association has slammed plans to raise licence fees on canals like the Kennet and Avon

[magnetman]

It is curious that they do not charge for summer moorings but are happy to take money (in some areas) for winter moorings. 

 

 

I know there are some areas where the CRT do charge for mooring in summer but as far as I am aware it is nothing like as widespread as the winter moorings arrangements.

 

It is also interesting that the CRT can use the satisfy the board and reasonable in the circumstances parts of the '95 act to take money from people for mooring on ordinary towpath side moorings for a lot longer than 14 days. 

 

It seems like they are missing a trick here. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by magnetman

[Mike Todd]

9 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Of course laws don't matter, especially if they're bad or unenforceable. Everybody breaks the law. Life is lived on practicality, not theory.

Which us one of the reasons for an independent public prosecutor who can decide whether each case is in the public interest. This avoids trivial prosecutions- usually. 

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Can they though? Cue the 10 page debate on it.

 

You predict a shorter than usual debate about it then?!

 

 

[Mike Todd]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

It is curious that they do not charge for summer moorings but are happy to take money (in some areas) for winter moorings. 

 

 

I know there are some areas where the CRT do charge for mooring in summer but as far as I am aware it is nothing like as widespread as the winter moorings arrangements.

 

It is also interesting that the CRT can use the satisfy the board and reasonable in the circumstances parts of the '95 act to take money from people for mooring on ordinary towpath side moorings for a lot longer than 14 days. 

 

It seems like they are missing a trick here. 

In theory they do not charge for winter moorings, that was an idea that failed through barrack room lawyers, but is a permit to not comply with the requirement to move every 14 days. AIUU

[magnetman]

I didn't realise winter moorings were free. 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

I don't understand why the CRT can charge for winter moorings but can't charge for summer moorings. 

 

Given that more people use their boats during summer it seems wise to apply charges during this time for mooring in convenient or popular places. If done right this could be a real earner. 

Because on the whole people want winter moorings for a few months, so that's fairly easy to organise and manage, and winter moorers are those licenced as CCers, who are willing to pay in order not to have to keep moving. Whereas in Summer people generally want only a few days mooring in any one spot, so it's much more work to organise and ensure compliance, and most of them are either hirers or boaters who are already paying for a home mooring and would resent paying again.

Edited March 16, 2023 by David Mack

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

15 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

In theory they do not charge for winter moorings, that was an idea that failed through barrack room lawyers, but is a permit to not comply with the requirement to move every 14 days. AIUU

It is something like that in theory, I don’t understand it.

 

But in practise they advertise ‘Winter Moorings’ and do charge for them.

 

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

I don't understand why the CRT can charge for winter moorings but can't charge for summer moorings. 

 

Given that more people use their boats during summer it seems wise to apply charges during this time for mooring in convenient or popular places. If done right this could be a real earner. 

 

Licence cost could well be yet another red herring. What you really need to do is charge people money for tying the boat up to the canal bank.

 

This could bring a whole new meaning to the term 'continuously cruising'. 

 

I know 14 days is allowed but is the navigation authority not allowed to charge money for this ? Daily rate of £10? 

 

 

They do already charge daily rates in some places. Charging all over the system would take an army of collectors, so they're just loading it on to the licence for CCers, as I've said many times. Home moorers already pay CRT a fee to moor, in addition to what they pay the landlord (in my case  twice what I pay my landlord).

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

It is curious that they do not charge for summer moorings but are happy to take money (in some areas) for winter moorings. 

 

But they do, Llangollen, Liverpool, Elesmere Port, and London. I am sure Birmingham is not far behind

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

It is curious that they do not charge for summer moorings but are happy to take money (in some areas) for winter moorings. 

 

 

I know there are some areas where the CRT do charge for mooring in summer but as far as I am aware it is nothing like as widespread as the winter moorings arrangements.

 

 

 

For clarity. 

I'm thinking of charging for moorings which exceed the 14d rule. 

[matty40s]

53 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

In theory they do not charge for winter moorings, that was an idea that failed through barrack room lawyers, but is a permit to not comply with the requirement to move every 14 days. AIUU

I think you are referring to the Roving Winter Permit which was mooted in 2013? and challenged legally by the NBTA

[dmr]

50 minutes ago, Goliath said:

It is something like that in theory, I don’t understand it.

 

But in practise they advertise ‘Winter Moorings’ and do charge for them.

 

 

Winter moorings are on pretty shakey ground and could easiy be lost. I think NBTA threatened a legal challenge but did not go ahead.

Winter moorings earn money for CRT and are very popular with some CCers so CRT still offer them and keep their fingers crossed.

It would be sad to loose them. I think the terms and conditions say "you must not totally live on your boat".

Charging for moorings like at Liverpool is something else, and these are never for more than 14 days.

Somebody above suggested charging for all moorings, in addition to be hard to collect this would take away the sense of freedom that is one of the huge attractions of the canals, this might be even more dangerous than a higher licence fee in encoraging people to give up boating.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

6 minutes ago, dmr said:

Winter moorings are on pretty shakey ground and could easiy be lost. I think NBTA threatened a legal challenge but did not go ahead.

Winter moorings earn money for CRT and are very popular with some CCers so CRT still offer them and keep their fingers crossed.

They are a bit odd,

when I took one on at Todmorden it felt like I were paying a kind of ‘bribe’ 💰for them to look the other way.

 

[Paul C]

NBTA threaten/promise all sorts of stuff. Did they actually mount a legal challenge, and if so, what form did it take and what was the outcome?

[magnetman]

I doubt there will be much sense of freedom on canals if the lock gates have too many holes to hold back water. 

[dmr]

17 minutes ago, Goliath said:

They are a bit odd,

when I took one on at Todmorden it felt like I were paying a kind of ‘bribe’ 💰for them to look the other way.

 

 

Thats the issue, with a winter mooring you are paying for CRT not to enforce the 14 day rule, but the 14 day rule is written in law, so CRT might just be breaking the law.

However there are lots of long term towpath moorings where you can pay to moor (for longer than 14 days 😀) so its probably ok. Maybe with a winter mooring you are just taking a leisure mooring for a while and so are no longer a CC'er.

From memory trouble came about when CRT were about to introduce a roving mooring permit. NBTA were opposed to this and threatened to mount a legal challenge if it went ahead (I do not know what percentage of boaters were in favour of a RMP). This is probably why the roving winter mooring (that was trialled for one year and popular) had to go and why conventional winter moorings were under threat. I doubt that CRT make much money from winter moorings, and get a bit of hassle, so its really done as a service to boaters??? In my limited experience, wherever there are winter moorings a few boats turn up and squat for free which creates some bad feeling.

[David Mack]

26 minutes ago, dmr said:

Thats the issue, with a winter mooring you are paying for CRT not to enforce the 14 day rule, but the 14 day rule is written in law, so CRT might just be breaking the law.

CRT is not breaking the law by failing to enforce it.

 

But the relevant law says you must satisfy the Board you will not stay in one place longer than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances. So I presume that in respect of winter moorings which have been paid for, CRT is satisfied that the circumstances are such that a longer period is reasonable.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

CRT is satisfied that the circumstances are such that a longer period is reasonable.

which is why it’s like bribery,

41 minutes ago, dmr said:

In my limited experience, wherever there are winter moorings a few boats turn up and squat for free which creates some bad feeling.

When I took mine on during COVID winter there were 4 of us in that pound by the service block who’d payed, another had been given permission to stay and possibly 2 were ‘squatting’ up the other end. These 2 had been chucked off their permanent moorings further down.

Cant remember how much I paid but it seemed a good deal, but if it’d have cost much more I’d probably have squatted for free.

 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

7 minutes ago, Goliath said:

which is why it’s like bribery,

When I took mine on during COVID winter there were 4 of us in that pound by the service block who’d payed, another had been given permission to stay and possibly 2 were ‘squatting’ up the other end. These 2 had been chucked off their permanent moorings further down.

Cant remember how much I paid but it seemed a good deal, but if it’d have cost much more I’d probably have squatted for free.

 

 

 

It's not really bribery. The guilt in bribery lies with initially the person offering the money  only then to the bribed. Here you're just being offered a service - it's up to the offerer to consider the legality. It's too complex an issue for the "fell off a lorry" scenario.

[magnetman]

It is interesting to consider the enforcement required if all towpath moorings were chargeable. It could just be based on boat index numbers. 

 

There would be issues but it could potentially be an interesting way to get some extra funds especially due to the fact that the CRT arrr in the driving seat with regards to the dreaded '95 act section 17 whatever &c.

[dmr]

59 minutes ago, David Mack said:

CRT is not breaking the law by failing to enforce it.

 

But the relevant law says you must satisfy the Board you will not stay in one place longer than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances. So I presume that in respect of winter moorings which have been paid for, CRT is satisfied that the circumstances are such that a longer period is reasonable.

 

Thats an interesting way of looking at it.

I had assumed that CRT had just created a short term mooring so the boat effectively has a home mooring. As far as I can deduce CRT can create a mooring anywhere they want whenever they want as long as its not residential, which I assume is why the winter mooring T&C's say the boat must not be the only/main residence. 

[Momac]

There is already a scale of charges in place

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/original/46638-winter-moorings-location-and-price-bands-2022-23.pdf

 

 

 

 

[dmr]

44 minutes ago, Goliath said:

which is why it’s like bribery,

When I took mine on during COVID winter there were 4 of us in that pound by the service block who’d payed, another had been given permission to stay and possibly 2 were ‘squatting’ up the other end. These 2 had been chucked off their permanent moorings further down.

Cant remember how much I paid but it seemed a good deal, but if it’d have cost much more I’d probably have squatted for free.

 

 

 

Looking at it as a bribe is probably a bit extreme. You could say that you give the barman a bribe for the beer so that he does not report you to the police for beer theft??? CRT are providing a service ( a mooring) and you are paying for it.

 

I am aware of one case where a boat squatted a winter mooring and at the end of winter another boat who had paid demanded a full refund on the grounds that the other boat had not paid. I believe CRT gave the refund, a very odd "legal decision", but the boater concerned was a very well known blogger at the time, maybe that was a factor?

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

NBTA threaten/promise all sorts of stuff. Did they actually mount a legal challenge, and if so, what form did it take and what was the outcome?

The problem with NBTA is that they try to impose a completely legally sound, human rights compatible, and 21st Century diversity worshiping state on a canal system and population which quite enjoyed being out of all that shite, and just enjoyed boating, floating around and for some, staying off the radar.

By doing what they do, they raise awareness with local councils that a Winter Mooring of 4 or 5 months breaks into the 28 days and then planning permission is required....which kind of makes you wary of taking one in case you get a Council Tax bill.

 

At the same time, they are defending a jerk owing god knows how many years licences BSS, insurance, and council tax for his residential mooring on the K&A and cant see why most boaters see Nick Brown as a complete tosser.

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Thats an interesting way of looking at it.

I had assumed that CRT had just created a short term mooring so the boat effectively has a home mooring. As far as I can deduce CRT can create a mooring anywhere they want whenever they want as long as its not residential, which I assume is why the winter mooring T&C's say the boat must not be the only/main residence. 

It says prior consent is required to use the winter mooring as a sole or main residence